Select Committee on Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth debate -
Wednesday, 16 Oct 2024

Apologies have been received from Deputies Patrick Costello and Seán Sherlock. Deputy Brian Leddin is substituting for Deputy Costello.

On 15 October 2024, the Dáil ordered that the Supplementary Estimates for public services in respect of the following Votes be referred to this committee for consideration: Vote 40 - Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth and Vote 25 - Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission. The purpose of this meeting is to consider the Supplementary Estimates and to report back to the Dáil. I remind members that only matters relevant to the Supplementary Estimates for 2024 can be discussed at this meeting.

I welcome the Minister, Deputy O'Gorman, the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, and their officials. I thank them for the briefing materials provided. I advise that this material has been circulated to members in advance of the meeting. The following officials are accompanying the Ministers: Mr. David Delaney, assistant secretary in the international protection division; Mr. Conor Rowley, assistant secretary in the Ukraine division; Mr. Colm Ó Conaill, assistant secretary in the disability division; and Mr. Ciaran Madden, principal officer in the early years division. They are all very welcome.

The proposed format of the meeting is to invite both Ministers to deliver an opening statement, which will be followed by questions from members. I will call on members in accordance with the speaking rota circulated in advance of the meeting. As the meeting is due to conclude at 12.30 p.m., members will be allocated five minutes for their questions. This time allocation should include the response from the Ministers. I will have to adhere to that five-minute limit.

Before we begin, I have a few housekeeping matters to go through. I advise members that the chat function on Microsoft Teams should only be used to make the team on site aware of any technical issues or urgent matters that may arise during the meeting. It should not be used to make general comments or statements. I remind members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex in order to participate in public meetings. I will not permit a member to participate where he or she is not adhering to this constitutional requirement. Any member who attempts to participate from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting. In this regard, I ask any members participating via Microsoft Teams to confirm they are on the grounds of the Leinster House campus prior to making their contribution to the meeting.

I will advise the Ministers and members about parliamentary privilege before we begin. Witnesses and members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative they comply with any such direction.

That completes the housekeeping matters. We will now proceed with the meeting. I invite the Minister to make his opening statement.

I thank the Chair for facilitating our meeting today. I thank the committee for making time to consider this Supplementary Estimate for the children, equality, disability, integration and youth Vote group. We need a Supplementary Estimate at this point principally due to the expectation that the Vote will breach its total allocation before the end of November 2024. The Supplementary Estimate is being sought principally due to cost pressures associated with the growing demand for services provided by Tusla, the early learning and care and school-age childcare sectors and the HSE as well as the continuing demands associated with significant international protection arrival numbers. The areas of non-pay administration, youth services and organisations and the asylum migration and integration fund add to this requirement to a lesser degree.

In summary, cost overruns of €958.8 million are forecast for this year. This includes €2.6 million in respect of the double payment relating to foster care, the blind welfare allowance and the monthly mobility allowance payment. Savings of €398.8 million are also forecast across various subheads. These are principally on costs associated with the Department’s response to the Ukraine humanitarian crisis and the mother and baby institutions payment scheme. The overall value of the Supplementary Estimate is, therefore, set at €560 million.

I will now turn to the various components of the Supplementary Estimate. In respect of Tusla, there is a forecast supplementary requirement of €52 million. Tusla is dealing with significant and increasing service demands in 2024. The key drivers of the overspend are higher costs associated with residential care placements, including emergency placements, as well as greater demand for guardian ad litem services and related legal costs. In addition to the service demands, the supplementary requirement of €52 Million includes €2.2 million relating to the foster care double payment in 2024, €3.7 million relating to pension costs and €5.5 million for private foster care.

The early years programmes continue to see considerable growth. The demand for both places and hours witnessed in 2024 has been in excess of the initial forecasts. The growth in the national childcare scheme, which required additional funding of €56.5 million, comes on the back of the further positive changes to rates and conditions introduced over the last number of years. The policy changes we are implementing to make the national childcare scheme more attractive are succeeding. More parents are taking it up and they are using more hours for their children. Increased expenditure of €12 million is also occurring in respect of the ECCE scheme as the number of children registered is higher than that initially estimated, particularly in regard to the split between amounts allocated to subheads B3, excluding beneficiaries of temporary provision, BOTPs, and E5, which relates to those beneficiaries. These overspends are somewhat defrayed by underspends on subhead B5, principally in respect of capital projects where demand was below that anticipated. Savings of €17.5 million are now expected in addition to a modest saving of €1.4 million on the legacy community childcare subvention, CCS, scheme. The combined effect of this is that the requested additional funding for the early learning and care and school-age childcare sectors equates to €49.6 million.

Specialist community-based disability services which are delivered directly by the HSE or through service level agreements with section 38, section 39 and for-profit providers are also experiencing pressure at this time. My Department is forecasting a supplementary requirement in this area of €162.4 million. This is made up of a service delivery requirement of €162 million and a €400,000 for the double payments for the blind welfare allowance and the monthly mobility allowance payment, respectively. The main drivers of the service delivery requirement are in the areas of residential placements, pay cost pressures, home support and respite, as well as impacts relating to transport inflation and changing needs. Cost pressures are also being felt in respect of international protection accommodation services, IPAS, with an additional requirement of €674 million. Increased numbers continue to be the principal driver. In addition, the asylum and migration integration fund continues to advance a new round of funding while closing out the previous round is experiencing cost pressures.

In contrast, there are savings across a number of areas in my Department, principally in respect of the Ukraine division, where new policy measures in 2024 and reductions in the number of arrivals have resulted in a reduction in costs, leading to anticipated savings of €218.8 million. Second, there are savings in expenditure realised in relation to the mother and baby institution payment scheme, where applications have been slower than anticipated when the budget was set, leading to anticipated savings of €158.6 million. It is important to note that the scheme will remain open for five years and all applications currently on hand as well as those received in future years will be processed and paid as quickly as possible. In 2025, funding to the order of €100 million has been allocated for the scheme.

In addition, I am also presenting a request for a Supplementary Estimate for €304,000 on Vote 25 in respect of the Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission, IHREC. Of this, €137,000 relates to the decision to take an own-name-proceedings case in 2024 and to meet a shortfall in respect of contract legal expertise costs. A further €167,000 relates to a shortfall in meeting the public service pay agreement pay needs, and the filling of three critical posts in early 2024. There is also an additional non-pay appropriations-in-aid of €100,000 in relation to the recovery of legal costs.

Officials from my Department and the Department of Public Expenditure, NDP Delivery and Reform have continued to monitor the expenditure of and allocations to the Department by way of regular meetings since the start of the year. I also bring a memorandum to Government on a quarterly basis in respect of my Department’s expenditure position.

I commend to the select committee these Supplementary Estimates for the Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth and IHREC. I am happy to address any questions it may have after the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, makes her contribution.

I welcome the opportunity to speak to the committee about expenditure for disability services and the important work it is funding. The Government is committed to providing services and supports for people with disabilities which will empower them to live independent lives, provide greater independence in accessing the services they choose, and enhance their ability to tailor the supports required to meet their needs. Our ultimate aim is to provide supports and services that will allow people with disabilities to live ordinary lives in ordinary places, in line with commitments under the United Nations Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, UNCRPD. The Government took the landmark decision last week to accede to the optional protocol to the UNCRPD. Our commitment to progressively realising the full potential of the convention in Ireland is steadfast. The allocation for disability services, which will bring the annual allocation beyond €3 billion for the first time and represents an increase of nearly 60% over budget 2020, in budget 2025 will be a significant step in that direction. The provision of disability services is demand led and therefore can be more challenging to plan for with precision.

We know that costs have been increasing in recent years across all sectors. Disability services providers have felt those cost pressures too. However, it is of utmost importance that the management of public moneys be subject to the strictest scrutiny, so that we can balance our twin objectives of providing services for citizens with disabilities, as well as spending prudently and efficiently. The extra funding of €162.4 million sought in these Supplementary Estimates will go towards meeting cost pressures associated with delivery of services this year. It will also provide for cost-of-living double-week payments for recipients of disability-related allowances managed through the HSE. We are exceeding targets in some areas of service delivery in 2024, particularly in residential services and intensive home support. The associated funding provided will meet the costs associated with this additional level of service. There is also funding required to help our service providers meet the increased cost of service provision in 2024, including where the needs of service users have changed.

I welcome the opportunity to reiterate that the priority for this Government for 2025 will be the enhancement of person-centred supports and services, supporting the progressive roll-out of the Action Plan for Disability Services 2024-2026, and implementing the roadmap for children’s disability services. In recent years, significant resources have been invested in disability services. This is reflected in the budget for disability services, which has increased by €1.2 billion since 2020 to €3.2 billion in 2025. As I noted earlier, this is the first time the disability budget has surpassed €3 billion. The additional funding allocation of €336 million for 2025 represents an increase of 12% for disability services and demonstrates the Government’s strong commitment to building capacity in this area.

Though the extra funding in budget 2025 is welcome, we know there is more to do, which is why we published a comprehensive action plan to help improve and expand services out to 2026. We are nearing the end of year one of the plan and good progress is evident in many areas, as well as clear indications of substantial enabling work required to help achieve its aims. This action plan, it must be noted, is a living document, which may be periodically reviewed and updated in light of progress or challenges that need to be addressed. This means we intend to remain flexible and agile as we respond to emerging issues and trends, but always maintain our focus on improving services for disabled people and making services more person centred and community based. I thank the committee once again for the opportunity to discuss these important issues today.

Given the importance of some of these issues, it is extraordinary we have no Opposition spokespersons here to ask questions. Anyway, that is where we are.

I will deal with the Minister's opening statement first. I would like some clarity on Tusla. I know it is under a great deal of pressure and that it deals with the most sensitive and difficult cases weekly. However, the Minister is pointing to a significant demand for services. Will he give us a little more detail on the areas that are under most pressure, and how the extra funding being provided this year and planned for next year will respond to that extra demand? We are talking about vulnerable children and often complex family situations. That would be useful.

On the national childcare scheme, will the Minister give us a sense of the number of childcare operators that have opted out of that scheme? The scheme has been successful for the larger operators, particularly the brands we all know across the country. However, the scheme seems to be much more difficult to implement for the smaller operators. I am talking about family-run childcare services. I know there is a number of them in the town of Carrigaline in County Cork where I live. They tell me they are finding the bureaucracy of the scheme difficult to implement. Owners and operators of crèche facilities are working deep into the night trying to deal with paperwork and meet the demands and thresholds being asked of them in terms of form-filling and so on. I know the Minister has focused on trying to make this a lot simpler and to reduce paperwork. However, there is a problem in this sector. Larger operators that run four, five, six or ten crèches and that have centralised HR systems working efficiently are operating the scheme fine.

Certainly the feedback I get anecdotally is that smaller operators that are running single crèche facilities really well are finding this scheme difficult in terms of making a margin. Some of them have been forced to leave the scheme so they can increase their fees. In areas in my constituency, where I think we have a particular problem in relation to childcare places, parents have no option but to effectively work with those crèches, which are really well run from my experience but are being forced to leave the scheme and increase fees to maintain a margin. I do not want to be unreasonable on that because I know this is a challenge but it would be good to get the witnesses' views on how we are reducing that bureaucracy, and ultimately the cost, for childcare operators.

I shall turn now to IPAS to get a sense on the turnaround times for decisions. This is a real pressure point for the Government as a whole in trying to ensure we are prioritising the resources we have to support people seeking international protection and people who are successful applicants. The big demand of the Government from most reasonable people is to make sure we look after properly the people who are accepted as seeking international protection, and who need our protection and need to get it. There are also people coming to Ireland and seeking international protection but not qualifying, and we need to treat those people in a humane way. It needs to be very clear to people that there are other ways to come to Ireland to work - through work permits schemes and so on - but not through international protection. With increased resources, what are the targets for average turnaround times now for decision making on international protection applications? Many people would be very reassured if they saw those timelines coming down on the back of increased resourcing and increased staff numbers. Where are we on staff today versus this time last year? Where will we be on staff numbers this time next year versus now? What impact will that have on turnaround times so we can make decisions faster and allocate resources on the basis of those quicker decisions?

I have some questions around the Ukraine division. By and large it has done a very good job under very pressurised circumstances with enormous numbers coming in over a very short space of time. I have gotten to know a number of Ukrainian families very well. Many are settling into Ireland very well and are integrating here. In my view many will stay, but many will also want to go home. For the record of the committee, I would like to know some of the numbers on where we are today. How many Ukrainian citizens do we have in Irish hotels and hostels today? How much spare capacity do we have for rooms that we have on contract with providers that are empty, if any? How many do we have in modular units? There has been some criticism of the cost of modular units. I am very familiar with the modular unit development just outside Mahon in my constituency and it has been very successful in the quality of accommodation and integration, even though a cost issue has been raised on that. Where are we with modular units? Are we still progressing that? Potentially, can we use that kind of accommodation for international protection clients as well as Ukrainian families into the future?

There has been some media coverage about the further reduction in supports for Ukrainian nationals here. I would be a little uncomfortable with going any further than we have already gone in reducing supports but I would like get a signal from the witnesses as to whether the Government is planning or considering any further changes to the supports that are there.

I have some questions for the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte. I believe it is a really good thing that we are now spending more than €3 billion on disability services. It is an extraordinary change in the space of the lifetime of this Government but it is still not enough in terms of outcomes. I do not know about the Minister of State but I suspect she feels the same as me about the number of parents that come to our offices ultimately frustrated about the timelines for getting assessments for their children, never mind actually getting services, therapies and therapists to support their children in the community and in school. A €3 billion fund is a lot of money and we need to be very demanding with regard to the output for that spend. It would be useful for the committee to get some more detail on where we are still falling short with numbers of therapists and in what parts of the country. Undoubtedly, there is very different service provision in different parts of the country for access to therapies and supports. That is a real issue. Likewise, there are very different resources available for respite care in different parts of the country. Some parts of the country are very well catered for and others are very poorly catered for. Quite frankly, there is what many parents would regard as discrimination on the basis of who the service provider is and which special school the child happens to attend, and they believe this determines whether one can access the respite care that may be provided by different organisations linked to different patronage for different schools. We have an obligation to make sure we take a very firm stance on that issue. Where somebody lives, or whether someone is fortunate enough to be in a school that has a certain patronage and a certain service provider, should not determine whether parents get access to respite.

I could talk about a whole lot of other aspects of disability. The Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, will be familiar with the frustration, about which I have been speaking to her for a number of years, around the partnership and co-operation between the Department of Education and the Department of Health - and in the case for the Minister of State, the Department for disability - on the provision of therapists and therapies in special schools. This co-operation is really not what it should be. We have discussed this at the committee previously and we have heard from some very frustrated parents. We have a particular example in my constituency, with which the Minister of State will be very familiar. I refer to an extraordinary failure on the part of the State in the very basic provision of therapists to a new special school in Carrigaline, which the State was required to set up by a court case. It still is not getting the adequate number of therapists to make therapies available to vulnerable children who need them. It is extraordinary to me that the State, with all its resources, has not managed to resolve that issue even though there is a lot of political determination to do so. Many meetings would confirm that but two years on, or 18 months on, the service provision is not where it needs to be. It is easy to talk about these things but it is more difficult to resolve them because it means recruiting people and acquiring skills. In the meantime, there are solutions, many of which we have been discussing, for the temporary provision of services by using and outsourcing to the private sector on a temporary basis. I do not understand why that has not happened although we now have a pilot project to try to resolve this issue for four schools across Cork. It would be good to get some reassurance for parents on the issues they have raised consistently now for about 18 months.

On the whole, this Department does a really good job in very difficult circumstances. It is a relatively new Department with regard to the services it provides. The Department has been asked to do an extraordinary amount of extra work in the last number of years because of the drivers that have come from the war in Ukraine and because of the extra responsibility it has taken on in relation to disability in particular.

Given all of those pressures, I think this Department has done a great job. I am supportive of the Supplementary Estimate. What I would like to see more of from this Department is setting targets and providing this committee with more numbers so we can more accurately assess whether we are making progress and moving in the right direction on matters like wait times, decision-making on international protection, and ensuring we do not have empty hotel rooms. These are all very political pressure points that I know the Minister has had to grapple with for many months. On the whole, I think it is a positive story of service provision by the State but there is more to do.

I thank Deputy Coveney for his questions and kind remarks, and his recognition of the work that officials here and the many officials in my Department do every day for some of the most vulnerable people in our society. On the first point on IPAS processing times, I am not able to give the most up-to-date figures because the Minister, Deputy McEntee, deals with processing through the Department of Justice and the IPO deals with the processing times. I know she has put in significant resources in 2023 and this year, and that she has allocated significant resources for next year, with increased levels of staff. That is delivering, particularly with our use of the safe country list. We can now achieve much quicker turnarounds of first instance decisions for people coming in from safe countries. I do not know the exact figures off the top of my head. Maybe that question would be best directed to the Minister, Deputy McEntee. I recognise and always have recognised her real focus there. She works to improve the processing time. I am working to improve the scale of accommodation and our ability to provide accommodation for international protection applicants.

We are currently providing accommodation for 32,000 international protection applicants. Last year, we saw about 13,000 international protection applicants arrive. We estimate that by the end of this year, we will see 21,000 or 22,000 arrive. There has been a significant jump in the number of arrivals and therefore a jump in the number of people we have to accommodate. That is the driver in the jump of the IPAS Estimate that we are seeking today.

I can give the Deputy more detail on the point on Ukraine. Right now, there are 35,000 beneficiaries of temporary protection who are Ukrainians in accommodation directly provided by the State - hotels, guesthouses and so on. There are another 31,000 people accommodated in private homes through the offer-a-home scheme and the Red Cross pledge scheme, and supported by the accommodation recognition payment. For context, in November of last year, there were 60,000 people in State-owned accommodation. That has dropped from 60,000 to 35,000 in 11 months because of the work my officials have done. Where there is an issue with contracts or where there are a significant number of vacancies, they have worked to consolidate those. That is the basis for the €218 million saving that we are reporting on Ukrainian accommodation today. That work is not always easy because when there are three half-filled hotels or guesthouses and they are consolidated, people have to be moved, which has an impact on them when they have set up in communities here in Ireland for 18 months or two years. This is not easy work. It is challenging when we have to move people. We are trying to get that balance between good contracts, good value for money in the State and continuing to support people in the communities where they live. About 300 contracts have been ended over the last 11 months because the demand for directly provided State accommodation has contracted over that time.

I know of no further proposals to limit the accommodation or social protection payment offerings provided to Ukrainians. A change was brought in earlier this year which has been significant. The Minister, Deputy Humphreys, deals with social protection issues, but as far as I am aware, there are no further changes. I know there was commentary about two weeks ago in the media. At the time, I said I was not aware of any further changes. I continue not to be aware of any other further changes.

On the modular programme, about 2,100 people are accommodated in modular sites around the country. One final site in Clonmel is being worked on at the moment. When that is completed, 2,300 people will be accommodated by the programme. A rightful concern has been raised about the increase in costs of that programme. The primary driver of that is the sites, not the costs of the units themselves. It is the cost of the work that had to take place on the sites that were provided. These were sites that were rejected for inclusion in Housing for All. They were deemed as too challenging for use as social or affordable housing under housing for all. The challenges to those particular sites were the primary driver of what I recognise is a significant overrun on the modular programme.

The primary driver of the extra costs sought for Tusla in 2024 is the need for more mainstream residential accommodation. As the Deputy knows, the vast majority, a total of 90%, of children in Ireland taken into care are cared for in foster care. That is far higher than most European countries. It is a figure we are proud of because when children have to be taken out of the care of their own family, the next best thing is to have them in the care of another family rather than in residential care. We are finding that a group of children and young people whose needs are complex and who are not able to settle in a foster home situation need residential care. Those have significant staffing numbers. There are the costs of the actual accommodation itself and the cost of staffing. That is the primary driver.

It is a significant driver of our costs. Tusla and the HSE have a protocol for children with a very significant disability who are now in the care of Tusla. From a budgetary point of view, there is a shared responsibility for meeting the needs of those children. That is a significant driver of costs too. As the Deputy knows, in 2024, we have taken significant steps to boost foster care, particularly by increasing the foster care allowance. We had a €25 increase on 1 January and there will be a €50 increase on 1 November. That will represent an extra €1,700 for foster carers this year and an extra €3,900 for foster carers next year. I have engaged extensively with the organisations representing foster carers because we want to keep that significant number of foster carers and families supported by foster carers. There were 308 residential care placements in August this year.

Recognising the importance of investment in Tusla and the vulnerability of the children who Tusla looks after, in budget 2025 we secured a significant increase in Tusla funding of an additional €145 million. When I came into this Department, Tusla funding was around €800 million. It is now well in excess of €1 billion. That is important because of the significance of the needs of these children. I have looked to resource Tusla to meet the very significant needs that it has to deal with.

Regarding early years, we might separate the national childcare scheme, NCS, and core funding. The NCS is the subsidy that we provide to services which then take that money off parents' bills.

We have grown that significantly over the past two years. That is enabling us to cut costs on average for parents by 50%. The vast majority of services around the country offer the NCS. It is a condition of core funding that a service provider offers the NCS. As we are now saving a lot more parents money on the NCS, more parents are signing up. That is why we have had to increase the Estimate for 2024. It is more money but that is good because the policy is working. More parents are taking up the NCS, using early learning care for the first time or increasing the number of hours.

The other element is core funding and that may be what providers engaging with the Deputy are concerned about. Last year, 94.5% of services had signed up to core funding by year end. Currently, the sign-up number for this year is 91%. We are at the same point this year as we were this time last year. A number of high-profile services announced over the summer that they would withdraw but subsequently a couple came back in later on because of the changes we made, particularly in allowing for a fee increase for certain services if they meet certain criteria. As I said, 91% are signed up to core funding right now but we expect that to grow in the weeks to come.

I visit early learning care services regularly. The issue of bureaucracy comes up all the time. Earlier this year, we initiated an action plan on the administrative burden services face. We have been working on that. We brought in an advisory group made up of providers to set out exactly on a day-to-day basis the challenges, paperwork and flaws with online systems they experience. We will publish that before the end of the year. In 2025, we will work through each of the points in terms of how we reduce the administrative burden. I am conscious of it and I want to address it. We assigned a team in the Department which is now working on drafting this action plan and implementing it. I also met a group representing a significant number of providers recently. We are looking to make sure there is a new provider subgroup as part of the early years forum so that where specific issues come up about which providers are concerned, they have an avenue to raise it directly with our Department.

Those are the key elements of the questions the Deputy asked. I will now refer over to the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte.

I thank Deputy Coveney for his questions. I will try to be as succinct as possible. It is sometimes helpful to understand the breakdown of the budget. From a residential point of view, and I am talking about 2024, not 2025, 57% of the budget is spent on residential care supporting 8,600 people. On day services, 24% of the budget is spent on supporting 21,000 people. A total of 5% of the budget is spent on supporting respite, be it for adults or children, which concerns 6,200 people, and 6% of the budget is spent on children's services. That comes to 95% of the budget. The last 5% is spent on community, personal assistance and home support. That is the overall pie chart as to how it falls in the €2.8 billion. It is not based on 2025 but it important to contextualise it for 2024. Residential care, as the Deputy can see, takes up nearly 60% of the overall budget. There are also day services. When I talk about children's services, sometimes we hear that 100,000 children in children's services are awaiting access to therapies. Under specialist complex disability - this is the difference; sometimes people do not realise there is primary care and complex disability teams, which is what I am responsible for as Minister of State - there are 40,000 children supported under that complex piece. I hope that goes some way to answering the questions. The 57% equates to €1.65 billion, 24% is €700 million, and 5%, for respite, is €135 million. When we came into Government in 2020, that was €80 million. I have grown it to €135 million. A huge focus across all parties has ensured respite has been key. A total of €170 million is being spent on children's services, while home support, personal assistance and community are the remainder of the budget. I hope that answers the Deputy's question.

The core of the question related to the delivery of children's services within the school environment. Part of the PDS model was the extraction of therapists within the school environment and the creation of new schools. No support mechanisms were put in place to acknowledge even their existence or bandwidth in the local CDNTs. The Deputy has been very vocal on and a strong advocate for the Carrigaline school. If the records were ever to stand in relation to all of the communications, there has been serious communications with the new school in Carrigaline.

The Deputy mentioned the pilot schools. The pilot school programme on which the Cabinet committee on disability landed is in a very positive space. For the first time, there was collaboration between the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth, the Department of Education, the NCSE and the HSE in identifying and meeting the needs for support. The Cabinet committee has been very clear: it is not aligning to but is in-school therapy. The Department of Education chose the first six schools that came forward based on need, feedback from the principals and their requirements. Carrigaline was one of the schools.

It is important to be truthful and transparent. While we have spent a lot of time talking about putting therapists back into schools, have those therapists landed to the breadth of what we wanted? There is a 0.5 whole-time equivalent speech and language therapist and a 0.5 whole-time equivalent occupational therapist, amounting to 1.5 days per week in agreement with the principal. That, to me, does not equate to what was asked of the pilot model, which was in-school therapy delivery. The frustration of that was borne out this time last week, when Andy Phillips, the new regional executive officer, made a decision, and the Deputy mentioned St. Killian's, that where a school principal is able to access private therapy themselves, he would release funding. If the school principal was in a position to access private therapy support locally, the HSE and he as the regional executive officer would support the principal with that funding. It is something the Deputy called for and his colleagues had looked for for a long time in Carrigaline but the willingness in the local HSE perhaps was not there to deliver upon it. High credit to Andy Phillips; he has made the decision to operationalise it.

Another part of the frustration, which may not be known to the public and which I have been battling for two years, is that Fórsa has a role to play. In two of the schools, while there might be some co-operation, there is not full co-operation with Fórsa in the form of the agreement of its members to operationalise the request of the Government for therapists to go back into schools. This time last year, Fórsa also decided the PDS roadmap was not at its standard and it held that up for in excess of six months. I say as a Minister of State, and I do not say it proudly, that it is highly frustrating when trying to do a job for our most vulnerable. We as the Government secured the funding, gave it to the HSE to operationalise and then a full stop was put on it. Parents do not want barriers; they want delivery.

Parents want to see their children receive a service. It is important, Chair, if you do not mind, that I tell the truth of some of our barriers in trying to operationalise the delivery of service. There are two schools in Cork into which Fórsa is preventing the delivery of therapies. It is very hard for Deputy Coveney or any of his colleagues to do fair representation when there are those barriers. This time last year, I had the problem with the PDS programme and the assistant therapists being operationalised. We still have that barrier, but Fórsa is aligning more to accepting.

I have, but it is important for everybody to understand. As a member of the Government, I seek the money, I get it and I give it to those who operationalise this, that is, the HSE. I want the children to receive the services. The Cabinet disability committee is very clear in its direction of the pilot programme. We knew the obstacles in Cork; they are still obstacles.

I thank Deputy Coveney for his questions.

I was not expecting that level of detail. I thank the Minister and the Minister of State for that. I do not want to spend too much time on one specific school because it is probably not appropriate when we are dealing with the overall Estimates. Even if, however, a lump sum of money is allocated to allow a principal to access therapies effectively from the private sector if the school cannot get access to people from the HSE system, it is very important the HSE is involved in the approval of that process to make sure the quality of the therapies is consistent with what would be expected of a HSE-funded occupational therapist, physiotherapist, speech and language therapist - whatever the therapist may be. To expect a principal to be able to make those judgment calls when he or she is not an expert in the therapies themselves would be unfair. Whether the HSE has the capacity to actually recruit and provide the therapists who have been promised or whether it is a temporary outsourcing arrangement, either way the HSE has to be involved in the approval process in ensuring standards and consistency. I think the committee understands the frustration as regards the schools concerned, in respect of which, to be fair, the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, has been extraordinarily energetic in trying to find solutions, and I thank her for that.

As regards the general point I made about disability services, we may be spending €3 billion going into next year but we still have a long way to go in getting where we want to be in terms of supports for families and individuals with disabilities. That is an area where, for a country that has the resources we have available to us, we need to do a lot better, but the funding has dramatically improved in recent years. We still have a road to travel, I am afraid.

I thank the Deputy for his comments. I will make one comment. We know we are moving towards the end of the term of office of this Government. I put on record the value I see in the decision that was made by this Government to take disability out of the Department of Health and put it into our Department. It was made at the start of the Government's term of office. The change happened only about two years in, so the work the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, has led, supported not only by me but also by Mr. Ó Conaill and the team around him, has really only had two years to bed in. We know that at the end and at the start of a new government there will be the usual chopping and changing with Departments. No doubt people will say the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth is too big and needs to be chopped up. I strongly urge that the change made to take disability out of the Department of Health is not reversed because I think that would be so retrograde. It has had only two years to bed in. I see improvements and the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, sees improvements.

There is a long way to go. We have never denied the challenges. We have never denied that we have only started to chip away at them, but we got the optional protocol ratified last week and we are getting very significant investment. There still needs to be more. It is a matter of growing that investment. I believe that is being achieved because responsibility for disability is now in a new Department. I say to all parties not to allow that to be reversed. Not only would it be a waste of the time spent over two years but it would also take away the opportunity whereby the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, and I are constantly on to the HSE and Bernard Gloster, saying to him that while we know waiting lists, trolleys in hospitals and cancer care are important, disability is also so important and asking him every single time what he is doing about that, and there is a real value to that.

Before we conclude, I have a couple of questions. First, to the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, it is important for the record to commend her on the budget, which is historic for the disability sector. I acknowledge that.

To the Minister, Deputy O'Gorman, may I ask you about the underspend on the mother and baby institutions payment scheme? It is very unfortunate. What are you doing to make sure the number of people applying increases? There are a huge number who can apply but who have not applied, and then there are people waiting.

I mention the Child Law Project funding. I know and I welcome the Department's commitment in that regard, but the project's current funding will run out in a matter of days. Could you give us an update on where the tendering for that is?

I see a very real value in child law reporting and I want to see that continue. One particular organisation has the contract at the moment. That was through a tendering process. We cannot just extend it for that organisation. There has to be a re-tendering process. I met the organisation in March and explained that was the situation. Between then and now, there were some delays in getting that tendering process initiated. That is regrettable, but I have made it clear to my officials that I want that tendering process up and available as quickly as possible in order that a tendering can come in and this can be resumed because it is critical. I have been at the launch of, I think, every single one, maybe barring one, of the childcare law reporting annual reports each year because I place real value on it. It is often very critical of the system, including Tusla and the Department. That is appropriate. There has to be that watchdog there.

We expected a very significant initial set of applications for the redress scheme. We expected more than 12,000 in year one because we had seen a very significant number of applications to birth information and tracing. We were modelling it on that basis. To date this year, we have seen just over 5,000 applications. We are now modelling it on a slow and steady approach to applications rather than a big initial spike. It is important to say that no one is not getting a payment because of the savings taking place today. Everyone who makes an application, submits the information and goes through the process will be able to draw down funding in 2024 and in 2025. Of the just over 5,000 applications this year, just over 2,000 now have had their decisions confirmed, and just over €28 million has been awarded so far. A renewed information campaign will be undertaken in the coming weeks in Ireland, the UK, Australia and the US. With information and tracing, we did a kind of big burst at the start with this scheme because it is over five years. We have set aside a budget to do a kind of reminder information scheme as we go through, so another one will roll out in the next month.

On behalf of the committee, I thank the Minister, Deputy O'Gorman, and the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, and their officials for attending this morning and dealing so comprehensively with the matters raised. That completes the select committee's consideration of the Supplementary Estimates. It is proposed to publish the opening statements and briefing material provided to the Oireachtas website. Is that agreed? Agreed.