COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS debate -
Thursday, 11 Jul 2024

The public business before us this afternoon is: minutes, accounts and financial statements, correspondence, consideration of the committee's draft work programme and any other business. The first item is the minutes of our meeting of 4 July, which have been circulated to members. Are all members happy with the minutes? Does anyone wish to raise any issues? I will take it that the minutes are agreed. As usual, they will be published on the committee's webpage.

We will move on to accounts and financial statements. Six sets of accounts and financial statements were laid between 1 and 5 July 2024. I ask the Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Seamus McCarthy, to address these before opening the floor.

First we have the travellers' protection fund and travel agents and tour operators fund accounts for 2023. These received a clear audit opinion. The second is the Defence Forces canteen board accounts for 2023, which also received a clear audit opinion. The third set of accounts is for Rásaíocht Con Éireann. These accounts received a clear audit opinion. The fourth set is for the Special EU Programmes Body, one of the North-South bodies. These financial statements relate to 2022 and received a clear audit opinion. The fifth set of accounts is for the Office of the Planning Regulator for 2023 and received a clear audit opinion. The sixth relate to Enterprise Ireland and are for 2023. These received a clear audit opinion.

It is encouraging to see. I just wished to acknowledge that. Can we agree to note the listing of accounts and financial statements? Agreed. As usual, the listing of accounts and financial statements will be published as part of our minutes.

We will move on to correspondence. As previously agreed, items that were not flagged for discussion for this meeting will be dealt with in accordance with the proposed actions that have been circulated and decisions taken by the committee in respect of correspondence will be recorded in the minutes of the committee’s meeting and published on the committee’s webpage.

One item has been flagged for discussion under category C, correspondence from and related to private individuals and any other correspondence. No. R2711, received from an individual and dated 2 July 2024, is correspondence from a member of the public regarding matters examined at the committee’s meeting with the Office of Public Works on 13 June 2024. It is proposed to note and publish this correspondence. Is that agreed? Agreed. I am sorry; it is agreed to note this item, not to publish it. Deputy Murphy and I have flagged it for discussion. Would Deputy Murphy like to come in on it first? I have it here if she would like me to go first.

The correspondence is from Mr. Allen Morgan, head of property advisory services in the OPW. Leaving aside the 541 office properties, there were 1,559 that are not classified as offices. I suggest that we ask the OPW to provide a note on those other 1,559 properties, categorising their purpose under different headings. On the other issue, I recommend that the committee formally request the OPW to provide a note on the legal advice it obtained from Patrick Leonard SC and Denis McDonald, as instructed by the Chief State Solicitor's office. Is that agreed? That is agreed along with Deputy Murphy's proposal, which is similar.

There is an item I would like to discuss that was not flagged, No. R2722, received from Deputy Catherine Murphy and dated 4 July 2024. It proposes that we seek further information from the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine in relation to correspondence No. R2698, which we discussed last week. Deputy Murphy proposes that the committee request a schedule containing the names and origins, that is, the stable or yard, for the horses referenced by number in the correspondence. The Deputy mentioned this to the Department this morning. Would she like to come in on this matter?

I will raise a second issue very quickly. Tusla came back to us with the number of children and young people reported missing. A footnote states that they were in non-statutory, non-regulated and non-procured placements. We understand that non-statutory means that it was not a State agency. It jumps out at me that these placements were non-regulated and non-procured. How can a placement be non-procured? Did the children find placements for themselves? How were they sourced?

I believe Tusla means that the procurement was non-compliant and that something was just booked without going through a procurement process. That is my interpretation but Tusla could clarify the matter. It has said that such placements can include hotel, bed and breakfast or privately rented accommodation.

I recall the day the Accounting Officer was before us and I believe I know what her response would be.

First, Tusla is struggling to get accommodation. Then there is the issue of providing supervision where the minors are going into accommodation that is not State owned or only partially so. This is typically private accommodation such as bed and breakfast accommodation, hotels or whatever else. There may not be time to act if an emergency arises. That is what is happening. The Department of children-----

I do not know what impression Deputy Murphy got but I got the impression at that meeting that there were minors literally landing at the front door of Tusla and the agency was being asked to look after these young people. Accommodation and somebody to supervise had then to be found instantly. It is a totally unacceptable situation. Is the Deputy okay with that response?

No. 4 on the agenda is the work programme. Members have been circulated with the draft work programme discussion document. It is displayed on members' screens. Next week we will break for the summer and we will resume on 19 September with a meeting with the Business Committee. In the first weeks of the autumn term, we have prioritised meetings with Uisce Éireann, the HSE, the Charities Regulator, the Land Development Agency and the University of Limerick, UL. The order of these meetings may change depending on availability. Does any member wish to comment or add to the programme?

If we are adding another meeting to that list, Children's Health Ireland is one that comes to mind. CHI will also have responsibility for the national paediatric hospital and there are a few issues there that would be worth discussing with it. How money is allocated and spent is certainly an area I would like to explore further with it.

I have noted that. I suggest we try to front-load the meeting with UL, if we could. I know it was at the end of the list I read it out but I suggest we put it near the front of the queue. The meetings do not have any particular order and none has been given priority over another. With the committee's agreement, I ask that we bring in UL on the first or second slot? Is that agreed?

I know the secretariat will do its best to try to jig those arrangements around. That concludes our consideration of the work programme for the day. The last item on the public agenda is any other business. Do members wish to raise any matters under this heading? No.

The committee will now go into private session, briefly, before adjourning until 9.30 on Thursday, 19 September 2024. Gabhaim míle maith ag gach duine.