Joint Committee on Key Issues affecting the Traveller Community (2023) debate -
Thursday, 11 Jul 2024

I welcome Senator O'Hara to his first meeting of the Traveller committee. He is very welcome. I know his passion for equality and human rights. He is placed on a great committee for that and I look forward to working with him.

Apologies have been received from Deputy Stanton.

I ask that we agree the minutes from our meetings on 16 May and 13 June 2024 as these minutes have already been circulated? Are they agreed? Agreed.

I remind members that they must be physically present on the grounds of Leinster House to take part in a meeting of the committee. I propose that we ask the Minister of State with responsibility for Traveller accommodation, Deputy Alan Dillon, to speak now and that we publish his opening statement on our website. Is that agreed? Agreed. The Minister of State is very welcome to our committee this morning. We had a very good working relationship with the previous Minister of State with responsibility for Traveller accommodation. It is brilliant to have a good relationship with the Ministers and to have some action. It is not something that is always evident publicly but it is great to work closely with the Minister of State and the Department in seeking some change. I ask the Minister of State to make his opening statement, after which we will open to meeting up to the committee members.

I thank the Cathaoirleach and members of the committee for the invitation to be here this morning to address the Joint Committee on Key Issues Affecting the Traveller Community. I welcome the opportunity to provide an update on the delivery of accommodation for Travellers. I am joined by the following officials from my Department: Mr. David Kelly, assistant secretary with responsibility for homelessness, rental and social inclusion; Mr. Patrick O’Sullivan, principal officer; and Karen Murphy, assistant principal, in the social inclusion unit.

Addressing Traveller accommodation is a priority for the Government and my Department and I appreciate the focus of the committee on this issue. The Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage’s policy in respect of accommodation for Travellers is underpinned by dedicated legislation. The Housing (Traveller Accommodation) Act 1998 provides that housing authorities have a statutory responsibility for the assessment of the accommodation needs of Travellers and the preparation, adoption and implementation of multi-annual Traveller accommodation programmes, TAPs, in their areas.

Accordingly, each local authority set targets for the provision of Traveller accommodation, which they outline in their Traveller accommodation programmes. The TAPs set out the blueprint for local authority investment priorities over the plan period and inform the basis for the delivery of all forms of accommodation for Travellers. The statutory framework provides that my Department must ensure there are adequate structures and supports in place to assist local authorities in providing such accommodation, including a national framework of policy, legislation and funding.

The publication of the final report of the Joint Committee on Key Issues Affecting the Traveller Community provides a welcome response to the many social and economic issues impacting on Travellers. As the committee is aware from previous engagements, my Department reviewed the recommendations, in particular having regard to the Traveller accommodation expert review report, for which there is already a process underway through the independently chaired programme board established to drive implementation of the recommendations.

As the recommendations of the joint committee report are primarily captured within the ongoing work of the programme board, it is helpful to direct the committee members to the ongoing progress reports of the programme board, which are published on the Department’s website. The most recent update of May 2024 has been shared with members of the committee.

In response to the 2019 report of the expert group on Traveller accommodation, a programme board was established by the Minister in 2020 to oversee implementation of recommendations from that report. The programme board includes two Traveller representatives, two County and City Management Association, CCMA, representatives, two representatives from my Department and it is chaired by the chair of the National Traveller Accommodation Consultative Committee, Mr. Niall Crowley. As an independent chair, Mr. Crowley works with the programme board members in addressing the recommendations and complex issues through a lens of both equality and human rights, in which he is an expert.

The programme board has already completed work on a number of the recommendations. For example, as part of the work of the programme board the social housing assessment regulations 2011 have been amended and now include a Traveller identifier, effective from March 2022. This is allowing for a more evidenced-based approach to the provision of Traveller accommodation giving local authorities better data in planning their TAPs and setting targets. There are many work programmes under way through the programme board, addressing issues such as the design of Traveller specific accommodation and improving data relating to accommodation provision.

I am pleased to report full expenditure of over €36 million in total expenditure by local authorities relating to Traveller-specific accommodation in 2023, which included almost €30 million in capital expenditure. This represents full spend of the budget allocation for the fourth year in a row from 2020 to 2023, amounting to a cumulative capital investment of over €80 million over this four year period. This demonstrates the drive to deliver on the commitments under Housing for All to increase and improve accommodation for the Traveller community. This investment by the Department through the local authorities demonstrates strong commitment to Traveller accommodation, which I welcome. The increase in expenditure is reflected in a higher number of outputs of new Traveller-specific accommodation, including 27 new group housing units, eight halting site units and the acquisition of 32 housing acquisitions for homes specifically for Travellers, which my Department will continue to encourage.

This year, local authorities are preparing new Traveller accommodation programmes for adoption for the five-year period 2025-2029. Local authorities manage the delivery and allocation of all Traveller accommodation under these very important five year rolling programmes, designed to meet the existing and projected accommodation needs of Travellers in their areas. My Department will facilitate, encourage and support local authorities in the delivery of their TAPs.

It is important to recognise also that the accommodation for Traveller households is provided across a range of housing options. The majority of Travellers, some 79%, live in standard housing, including local authority and approved housing bodies, AHB, housing, and housing assistance programme, HAP, and residential accommodation scheme, RAS-supported tenancies in the private rented sector. Funding for these housing supports is provided through the respective budget lines.

The accommodation of Travellers in standard social housing has grown considerably since the publication of the expert report in 2019. In 2019 there were 4,461 Traveller households in local authority and AHB social housing. That number grew to 5,569 homes by 2022, which is a 25% increase reflecting the commitment from local authorities in accommodating Travellers. When the number of households supported by other State schemes, such as HAP or halting sites, is included, it accounts for 79% of all Traveller households living in accommodation provided or supported by the State.

The Traveller accommodation unit’s budget is provided solely for Traveller-specific accommodation, such as halting sites and group housing schemes. Accordingly, funding available for and spent on the provision of accommodation solutions for Travellers is much broader than the often reported spend under the Traveller-specific accommodation budget.

The incidence of Traveller families in emergency accommodation is recognised as a significant challenge. Together with local authorities, which have statutory responsibilities for the provision of homeless accommodation and in tackling homelessness, my Department continues to work to address this challenge in conjunction with the broader challenges of homelessness. The Minister recently appointed a representative from a national Traveller organisation to the national homeless action committee.

The preferential and affordable caravan loan scheme for Traveller families rolled out as a nationwide pilot across all local authorities in 2022 and this pilot was continued until March of this year. This scheme is making an immediate and significant improvement to living conditions for families on sites. A total of 169 loan applications were approved across the pilot schemes impacting on the lives of over 626 people which includes 318 children.

My Department is finalising an evaluation of the pilot caravan loan scheme and I expect a report to be submitted to me very shortly. I recognise the importance of this scheme in providing Travellers access to caravans at a significantly discounted rate and I will consider the recommendations carefully in order to determine the next steps for this scheme. I expect that issues will arise and learnings from the pilot scheme have been incorporated into this evaluation, including any challenges with the loan limit of €40,000.

I thank the committee and the Cathaoirleach for their particular focus on this area. I assure members that I fully recognise it is of considerable importance to the Traveller community. We must strive to continue the good progress being made because the provision of Traveller-specific accommodation is central to ensuring we continue to improve the lives of Travellers, who, I recognise, face many complex challenges that are also being raised and addressed by this committee. Current progress demonstrates the drive and commitment which the Department, in conjunction with local authorities, continues to foster. This work relates to the provision of both social housing and Traveller-specific accommodation. The Housing for All plan specifically recognises the importance of addressing Traveller accommodation needs as a priority and commits to working with local authorities to improve the quality and quantity of Traveller-specific accommodation.

I am happy to answer any questions that the committee may have.

I thank the Minister of State for attending. It is important that he has done so. I also thank him for the succinct speech he made. There are a number of issues I would like to raise that the Minister of State might be able to deal with.

There is a high rate of family formation. In other words, there is a growing number of Traveller families who need houses. One of the challenges we face, looking at the figures, is that the while the Minister of State has told us how many people have been housed, he has not told us the demand. He said there are 27 new group housing units and eight halting site units. He said there have also been 32 housing acquisitions for homes for Travellers. Are the group housing units and halting site units replacements that will allow families to get better accommodation rather than new spaces, if the Minister of State understands? Will the 32 houses be used to rehouse Travellers? That does not deal with the issue of rapid family formation. We need more detail in that regard because we must tackle that issue.

Something like 50% of the people who are homeless in Galway, those in emergency accommodation, are Travellers. That statistic shows the Minister of State the scale of the challenge we face. I am sure the figure in other areas is similar. If a Traveller wants to go into standard accommodation, that is fine. If an equal choice is given of Traveller-specific accommodation, that is fine. I do not think we should be directing where people go. We should be accommodating people's personal choices.

There is one thing I do not find satisfactory. As a TD for Mayo, I am sure the Minister of State finds the same problem. It is hard for Travellers to get the housing assistance payment, HAP. The rental accommodation scheme, RAS, is not really a player anymore but it is very hard to get HAP. Travellers find it very difficult. A HAP tenancy is very precarious. Many of the people who come to me looking for houses are Travellers availing of HAP. Those are not cases in which there has been any issue. The landlords or owners of the properties are perfectly happy with the tenants but want the property back and that is their issue.

The Minister of State said that in 2019, there were 4,461 Traveller households in local authority and approved housing body, AHB, accommodation and that this number grew to 5,569. That is an increase of 25%, but my question is, having done that, how long is the queue of people still waiting for accommodation across all sectors? How many of those on HAP are on the permanent transfer list to get away from HAP and into local authority accommodation? That is the real measure of where we are.

I will move to something that this committee is fed up hearing me talk about. To me, it is the most solvable problem. The Minister of State could make an executive decision and solve it once and for all within a week. The issue to which I refer is the caravan loan scheme. I cannot understand why it is so hard to crack. At the moment, the Department decides, but I do not know how, to make a finite allocation of caravan loans available in a year. We need to do an assessment of all the deficient caravans on halting sites and in which Travellers are living because there must be nothing worse. I have a few grandchildren who tried camping out for a night. By midnight, they were back in the house. That was in the middle of the summer. There must be nothing worse than living in a poor-quality trailer in the wintertime. I have raised this issue time and again in the Dáil and at the committee. We clearly require a needs assessment of how many caravans it would take to bring the situation up to date. We also need to decide what shelf life we expect a trailer, as Travellers prefer to call them, to have. What is the shelf life of a trailer? We should have a rolling programme to replace them as they move beyond their usable lives.

The next step I cannot get my head around is one that the Minister of State mentioned, thankfully, which I hope is a signal that he will make progress on the issue. There is a limit of €40,000 but one cannot buy a new trailer for €40,000. We are buying problems from the start because we are buying second-hand trailers. When we are talking about living in them 365 days per year, trailers only have a certain life cycle. If you buy a three-year-old trailer and the life cycle of a brand new trailer is, for argument's sake, ten years, now you only have seven years for your money. Would it not be better to get a brand-new trailer that would last for ten years? We need to consider that.

The first issue that arises in this regard is the needs assessment. Everybody who needs one should get one. Money is not so scarce that this problem, which is finite, could not be solved in one year. If the cost was going to run to millions, I would understand but that is not the case.

The next issue is the €500 deposit. Somebody who is not a Traveller rang me yesterday looking for an exceptional needs payment from the Department of Social Protection. That person was asked to make up their weekly expenses. We started doing a doodle. We put in the cost of food for this person, who is single. We included the cost of food, heat, light, clothes and some social expenditure, including the cost of the odd newspaper. This person is parsimonious. We included the cost of running a 15-year-old car and so on. From the €232 available, nothing was left. How are families whose only income is welfare meant to save up this €500 deposit? I received a reply to a parliamentary question. It was the kind of reply I find awkward. It stated that the €500 deposit is needed but that it is at the discretion of the local authority to collect it or not in the circumstances. Why make life so complicated? In Galway, there were four caravan loans issued. Therefore, the total amount of money raised was €2,000. The budget of Galway City Council is €50 million or whatever. Can we bit a little generous for once in our lives and do the simple thing? We should provide new caravans for all, get rid of the deposit and have a modest fixed loan repayment, taking into account that some people are also paying rent on the bay and on the little service unit. In some cases, people also get a kitchen unit.

We need to be realistic about this and give people a modicum of comfort. The numbers are small. As the Minister of State said, the numbers in halting site accommodation account for a fraction of the cost of the housing budget of any county council or the Department. I am glad that notice is being taken of the committee. We are trying to be very targeted and reasonable in what we are looking for. We want to work in co-operation with the Department, but we have to be very firm on easy wins and solutions that would mean people would go to bed in midwinter with a modicum of comfort being delivered now and not going from year to year.

If anybody else was living in this kind of accommodation, RTÉ would be down with the cameras. I remember a certain group was given top-class accommodation in Army tents. I rang up a certain major radio station, that being RTÉ, and said that if it was so worried about the state of people's accommodation, it should do something on the very poor caravans in which people have been living for years. It was not interested. That is RTÉ's business, but it is our business to be interested. I know the Minister of State is interested. Unfortunately, he is in at the tail-end of the lifetime of the Government. Whichever way it goes, there will be an election by 20 February. The Minister of State could sort out the caravan loan scheme in one go between now and then. It must be too tempting not to do it. Just go and do it. The officials will make sure it happens. The Minister of State would make a lasting mark if this issue were dealt with once and for all.

I thank Deputy Ó Cuív. I acknowledge his passion and his commitment in the context of resolving issues for the Traveller community and accommodation-specific challenges. It is a complex issue and we are all aware of this. The good work of the committee is certainly shining a spotlight on how we need to move forward on this. We have made significant progress in this regard. We have seen capital spend increase year on year. If we look at the budget for Traveller-specific accommodation, refurbishment and the provision of halting sites and group housing schemes, we see it has been fully drawn down over the past four years. More than €80 million has been expended. The improvement on this drawdown is a significant step forward.

With regard to the question on demand and our focus on delivering local authority-led projects, the output in 2023 was eight new halting site units, 27 new group housing units, major refurbishment of 16 halting sites and major refurbishment of 15 group homes. These refurbishments, as Deputy Ó Cuív has said, will continue to support need. Accommodation is planned by local authorities through the Traveller-specific accommodation programme and we have seen significant progress in the most recent programme.

Local authorities are developing future Traveller accommodation programmes for the next five years. It is very important that local authorities carry out an assessment to determine local need, ensure they have annual targets and measure implementation at local level. It is very important that local Traveller accommodation consultative committees are established and that they have teeth in each local authority area to commit to deliver and implement the required Traveller-specific accommodation. Our policy statement on this is to ensure we adequately fund local authorities in this regard.

The Deputy asked about the pilot caravan loan scheme and I know he has been a big advocate of it. This is for people to purchase their own caravans or mobile homes for use as a primary residence. The pilot programme has been very successful in supporting the provision of Traveller-specific accommodation. As stated earlier, 169 loans were provided and these have supported more than 626 people in Traveller communities. More than €6 million has been drawn down to support the Traveller loan scheme. We are evaluating the report.

The Deputy also asked about waivers. I understand approximately 24 applicants benefited from a waiver from the €500 deposit in the 2023-24 caravan loan scheme. This demonstrates the discretion local authorities have in applying the necessary needs analysis for those applying for it. It is a pilot scheme and its provision is limited by the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform. We feel the allocation model is fair. We will see what happens with the report. I am sure there will be lessons and issues raised that will feed into the next steps forward. The loan amount of €40,000 has increased substantially from the initial implementation, which was €6,000. The standard of mobile homes and trailers has increased, as have costs. New standards were introduced in 2023 in this regard. We will give this consideration as part of the evaluation process.

I know committee members are concerned about the amount. It has been raised as challenge. I expect the amount cap will form part of the evaluation. It is very important to say that. Everything is up for consideration in the context of the caravan loan scheme. The previous 5% deposit was a challenge and a barrier. With the support of the national Traveller accommodation consultative committee, we implemented a €500 deposit and moved away from the 5% deposit. The 5% deposit was excessive. In some cases, it meant a deposit of €2,000. Now the deposit is €500. We have given discretion to local authorities to waive the €500 deposit in some instances. I look forward to seeing the report because it is very important that the scheme can move into 2025 and that we put in place all of the findings from the pilot scheme in order to ensure that we can provide more access to the scheme to the Traveller community.

The Minister of State is obviously hitting the stone wall that is the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform. I would love to see some of the people in that Department sleep in a caravan that is draughty, wet and damp in midwinter. In order to help the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform, which spends billions - and we hear announcements every day about thousands of millions of euros - I suggest that a needs analysis be carried out. In other words, each local authority should be asked how many caravans in its area are deficient. We could then go back and say that this is the finite limit of the problem, and we could sort it.

Would it possible to price around to see what a new one would cost? I cannot understand the fetish of buying ones we know are going to wear out faster. What is the cost of a new, standard trailer that is designed not for Ballybunion in the summer but for living in 365 days of the year? Let us base our price on that, not on some arbitrary figure that will not apply when the sums are done as to how the money will be spent. I do not know what the total budget for housing is but it runs to billions of euro, so the cost would be minor. As I said, if this were any other group in society, it would not be tolerated.

Will the Minister of State come to Galway? We could go to the temporary halting site in Carrowbrowne, for which the local authority that owns it has not had planning permission for 14 years. We could then go to Cúl Trá, where the lease is up and the site is totally overcrowded. Seeing is believing, and if the Minister of State could bring a few Department of public expenditure officials with him, that might be a help.

We will take all the findings from the evaluation process into consideration to ensure, to the Deputy's point, that the scheme is fit for purpose. The figure of €40,000 was based on when the scheme was being put in place and being piloted. It has been successful in many ways but, to take the Deputy's point, cost considerations need to be factored into the new scheme and setting the appropriate loan value is central to what he said. We will engage with the NTACC and committee members when we have evaluated the report and discussed the recommendations with the Department of public expenditure to try to find an appropriate, correct value reflecting the cost to purchase new trailers or mobile homes. That will all feed into the Estimates process and the Exchequer funding that will be allocated to this programme. That is important. It should not be a barrier to seek new suitable, or Traveller-specific, accommodation. We want to have flexibility within the programme.

We have moved over recent years to reduce the deposit. We have extended the pilot scheme over a number of years and brought more people into it, and we have seen the benefits throughout the country for a lot of families. A total of 629 people, including more than 300 children, have been supported through the pilot scheme, which is significant, and we want to continue to play our part in supporting local authorities, through the Department, to deliver this programme in all local authorities. Nineteen local authorities signed up to the pilot but we want to go further. The scheme has been welcomed by this committee but all the issues and challenges that have been faced need to feed back into that report in order that we can take those recommendations and move forward.

I thank the Minister of State for coming to talk to us. The ethnic identifier was introduced in March 2022. What is the Minister of State's sense and that of the Department of how robust that is? Without clear, concise data, we cannot get a true picture of need. There has been significant progress on introducing that, but how robustly is the ethnic identifier being implemented and what sort of data is it providing for us?

There will be another census in the coming years. Has the Department advocated that the census should monitor the ethnic identifier and are there any work programmes or actions that would help us ensure we will get correct data on Traveller communities and their needs from the census?

It is important to have true and accurate information on where Travellers live and their accommodation preferences. The Department noted the findings of the 2022 annual estimates of accommodation of Traveller families, which indicted there were 12,183 Traveller households in the State, of which 79% were in standard accommodation and 21% were in Traveller-specific accommodation. I hope to shortly receive the findings of the 2023 annual estimates of accommodation of Traveller families. The preliminary results indicate there are 12,367 Traveller households in the State, or an increase of 1.5%.

To the Senator's point about the truth and accuracy of these figures, they have been compiled in conjunction with local authorities and other bodies. I am happy with the robustness of the data versus what is contained within previous census data. It gives a clearer, more on-the-ground reflection of where Traveller families and households are located and it feeds into the assessments of need carried out by local authorities, pointing to a general preference of what type of accommodation Travellers require, whether that is social housing, halting site bays or group housing schemes, and that is important. We hope to have the 2023 estimates shortly. As I said, we have the census 2022 information but it is important we continue to engage with Traveller households and organisations. I have previously met the Irish Traveller Movement and Bernard Joyce and I have also met the chair of the NTACC, Mr. Niall Crowley. This data is important to allow us to plan into the future.

We have 32 recommendations from the expert review, of which ten have been completed in six years. There has been no completion of some of those relating to governance, although it is a work in progress. I am concerned about the assessments of living conditions, which Deputy Ó Cuív raised earlier. Can the Minister of State give any commitment to the committee about progress on that?

In the North, unfortunately, we lost the umbrella body that advocated for Travellers and their communities. Is there any update on the Department’s engagement with the Northern Ireland Housing Executive, especially in respect of transient sites?

Regarding the Senator’s question on the implementation of the Oireachtas joint committee recommendations but also regarding the expert group’s implementation, in March of this year, we supplied the most up-to-date positions on progress on the implementation report. We also published the programme board update in May of this year. We have presented two sets of updates on the implementation of both of these key findings. In addition, in respect of the implementation, I recently met the chair of the board, Mr. Niall Crowley, who is leading work on the programme to address the issues, to the input of both the Traveller organisations but also local authorities. That is an ongoing engagement with my Department and officials to drive implementation on the recommendations of the expert review on the working of the issues. We are advancing the recommendations across a broad range of issues. Mr. Crowley referenced issues around governance. They are working to resolve many concerns around governance. There is a research project currently under way on best practice to design Traveller-specific accommodation, arising from my Department and issuing new guidelines on the design of Traveller-specific accommodation. It is important that our Department continues to engage with Mr. Crowley in this regard and also explores the feasibility of an all-island approach on the provision of a network of transient sites. That is important.

I thank the Senator for raising the matter. I think we all share the ambition that we have shared membership between the NTACC here and the NIHE, and that we have closer co-operation in that regard. I reassure the Senator that we are focused on ensuring the national Traveller accommodation consultative committee is working closely. Mr. Crowley highlighted the work of the local Traveller accommodation consultative committees within each local authority. Closer collaboration is important to drive standards, as well as to drive delivery at both a national level and linking that to the local delivery and for us to then come in and support through capital and current expenditure. That is important. We have to make continual progress in that regard. The governance piece is important to ensure that we have accountability and transparency in those who are doing better than others, and try to increase that level across the State.

Under the Traveller accommodation programme, it is important we have an on-the-ground assessment linked with the number of Traveller-specific households who require Traveller-specific accommodation, be it in group housing schemes or halting site bays, but also there is a preference for many Traveller families to be housed within social housing. We are providing support through Housing for All. We have one of the largest social housing delivery programmes in the history of the State happening at present. We are working with local authorities to ensure that families are supported. It is fair to say that younger Traveller families are moving into more permanent social housing residences. However, we need an accurate and clear picture. I hope that the next programme under the Traveller accommodation programme ensures that all local authorities have the required housing targets and needs. That would be worked through by each local authority to its LTACC.

The bonus is that a Cork fella speaks much faster. We will get much more in in a shorter bit of time.

I will follow on from one or two things. Deputy Ó Cuív spoke about making Traveller-specific accommodation exempt from the planning process. Would the Minister of State agree with a suggestion like that to expedite things? That is my first question.

The Minister of State spoke about the caravan loan scheme and the possible review of all the second-hand or unsuitable trailers in the community. Would a review be taken on that?

The Minister of State mentioned a lot of the younger Traveller community are going into housing estates and that there is a generational change. Has there been major engagement with the Traveller community on options like modular homes, which might be better value than the trailer loan scheme, and educating people about the differences and benefits that weigh out on that? Would that be possible?

I was lucky enough to sit in the Traveller consultative committee in Cork County Council a long time ago. Some brilliant and fabulous work and engagement was done. The engagement between the Travelling community and council officials was, at times, fairly feisty but also straight and honest. In the Minister of State’s opinion, should there be a national Traveller accommodation authority specifically set up for this role that could concentrate on it, would benefit the local authorities and would be the central link between local authority and central government? It would give them the opportunity to engage with the Traveller community and have the information about the options.

Where there is a Traveller family living in a council house but they have a children with additional needs and the houses are not fit for purpose, is there a way of addressing that through the consultative committee? I will be brief. I have a case where I have a young Traveller family with four children living in a house. Two of the children have autism, one of whom is high on the spectrum. I see where the council is coming from. It cannot put locks on the windows upstairs, but the child got out an upstairs window one evening. It could have been an absolute disaster. I can see where the council says it cannot put locks on it. The family needs to put locks on it because the accommodation is not suitable for the children’s and family’s needs. I wanted to flag that with the Minister of State.

The main questions are on a national Traveller accommodation authority and the Irish Human Rights and Equality Commission call for Traveller-specific accommodation to be exempt from the planning process. What does the Minister of State think about that? As I said, if the national Traveller authority was set up, could the differences be eyed up between trailers, modular homes and homes in situ? That would be a massive benefit. People are not aware or are not being made aware of options and it has been very difficult.

Finally, the €40,000 loan scheme is totally and utterly unsuitable. People spend more on a car now. That definitely has to be addressed.

I thank the Minister of State for his patience.

I thank the Deputy for his line of questions. I will take his question on the recommendations for the national Traveller accommodation authority. I recognise that the programme board is actively considering the recommendation for the national Traveller accommodation authority.

It is one of the key recommendations in the expert review group. I understand from my officials that there is work under way by the programme board to initiate a paper on the recommendations, in conjunction with the Housing Agency. I know Mr. Niall Crowley, the independent chair of the board, who is an expert in both equality and human rights, is taking this matter into consideration. I endorse this approach to ensure we have collaboration from all members of the board in that regard. I will certainly give this as careful consideration as possible. For both the NTACC and at local authority level, it is important we do not have duplication. It is also important we have oversight. I understand how important this is to some Deputies in this committee. The fact that it has been reported in both the expert report and at the Oireachtas joint committee is an important point.

As for the Deputy's question around planning exemptions, currently, there is a temporary exemption from the Part 8 approval process in place which is provided to local authorities to construct housing developments on local authority and designated State-owned lands. That includes Traveller-specific accommodation. Some local authorities use it, while others do not. However, to address the Deputy's point, where it is needed, it should be utilised. In Spring Lane, in the Deputy's own county, Part 8 approval was given by councillors, which is a really important development. Our Department granted stage 2 approval to the tune of €17.9 million to Cork city in January 2024. While I know there was considerable frustration and delay in this regard, we are now seeing progress. It will be a really important redevelopment for the Spring Lane site. It is important that this progress has been made, in the context of the challenges with the Ombudsman for Children's Office and the other issues raised.

Will the Deputy briefly repeat his other questions?

As for the options of either trailers or modular homes, have modular homes been looked at? I suspect they would be far better value and longer lasting than trailers. It about educating people that there is an option in this regard. It might be a better, more suitable and more permanent option. Have the modular homes been looked at?

In terms of Traveller-specific accommodation, our Department is responsible for the delivery of halting site bays or group housing schemes. It is up to the local authority to design and deliver. Certainly, it is being considered as part of a delivery programme. With rising construction inflation, the cost of delivery of group housing schemes for Travellers has increased. Modern methods of constructions and being more innovative are really important. It is a key delivery of the Government under Housing for All. Modular homes should not be ruled out in the context of what we are actually delivering in our capital programme. We will take any submission from any local authority into consideration. We would welcome local authorities using this type of technology because we want these group housing schemes to be best in class. We want them all to be at the highest energy efficiency rating and to be sustainable over the long term to ensure they provide the best quality housing for Traveller communities.

It is really important that within local authorities, be it through social workers, the HSE or disability services, we have a consultative process to evaluate the needs of families who may be impacted by disabilities or special needs. The provision of suitable accommodation is really important within a housing-----

I have a few questions. I could not sleep last night thinking of this committee meeting today. I was so nervous, as a Senator who happens to be a member of the Traveller community and as someone who was born and reared in a run-down halting site. We are expected to police these halting sites ourselves. The homes are not future-proofed or fit for purpose. There are families in many halting sites, such as those in Tallaght, Finglas, Kerry or Donegal - you name the county - which are not fit for purpose for our Traveller community.

When I first started in the Seanad, I remember hepatitis being on one of the sites due to dirty water. That was in 2021, in today's Ireland, and no one was held accountable for at least ten children and adults from a specific halting site in Dublin ending up in hospital. I remember meeting the Minister at the time. There was an attitude of it being the Travellers who blocked up the pipes and so forth. The blame was put back on the community. Local authorities take little or no responsibility for the failures they serve to our community on a daily basis. The Traveller accommodation programmes, TAP, have not worked and will not work for Traveller accommodation. I have sat on TAP programmes since I was 18 years of age. I am now almost 35 and I have seen little or no change in accommodation for the Traveller community.

Deputy Ó Cuív touched on Travellers in receipt of HAP going for rental accommodation. It is tough for people in the general population to get rental accommodation today, but it is tougher for members of the Traveller community. They face racism and discrimination. I am currently dealing with a young woman in Ardagh in Donegal who is living in an apartment in which you would not put a dog. Her youngest child is five months old. She has three children living in a one-bedroom apartment. This is no disrespect to the landlord because when the woman first moved in, she did not have any children. I was in the apartment in January and, believe me, none of us would live in that kind of accommodation.

Every single day, there are children, including Traveller children, living in unsafe, cold and impoverished accommodation. We have seen that in Cork and with the Ombudsman for Children's report last week in the children's committee. The ombudsman openly said we are failing children, including children from the Traveller community.

While I understand the Minister of State's Department has provided homes for more than 300 children from the Traveller community, what kind of homes are they? As for the caravan loan scheme, to the best of my knowledge, and from some of those trailers I was in, the caravans have no plumbing or heating. They are shelters rather than a home. They are shelters for some of these children. Having a roof over your head is better than being out on the streets. When representatives of National Traveller MABS appeared before this committee, they said we must and should do more for Travellers when it comes to the Traveller caravan loan scheme. The maximum loan amount for a trailer is €40,000.

I am not here to divide - I want to bring people together - but a lot of these trailers come from holiday camps. People have already lived in them for ten or 20 years and had them in their lovely little holiday camps, be that in Donegal, Wexford or wherever else. They have got 15 or 20 years' use out of them. They go to them in the summer and it is ever so grand. When members of the settled community want to live in caravans for the summer and want to go around in camper vans, it is absolutely fine, but our community, an indigenous community of this country, who are Travellers, hence the name, are not allowed to travel because of the trespass legislation. Some think it is okay that we have got over 160 caravan loans since the caravan loan scheme was implemented. Again, a lot of those trailers are not fit for purpose. Some of them are ongoing cases. I cannot talk about one that is under an investigation. It is great saying we have provided over 160 caravan loans, but National Traveller MABS and the National Traveller Women's Forum will tell you the scheme is not working. TAP has not worked. It will not work. What is the solution? What can we do?

Deputy Buckley talked about the stand-alone Traveller authority that was recommended by the expert group in 2019. Out of over 30 recommendations, we have implemented ten since 2019, and that is absolutely not acceptable. We would not, as a community, fill Croke Park on an all-Ireland day. There are 40,000 Travellers in this country, and we are failing Travellers every single day.

Next week, in the Seanad, we will have the Planning and Development Bill in front of us. Our Civil Engagement Group has recommendations that will make sure that Travellers are at the heart of planning and investing in local communities. Today, Minister, can you give me your word that you will support some of our amendments to that Bill? Of course, you have not seen them, but I am a member of the Traveller community who has reached out to Traveller organisations, and there is no accountability for the failure in Traveller accommodation - absolutely none. What we are looking to do, as the Civil Engagement Group, is to hold local authorities to account. I know, Minister, that you are passionate about that Bill and were before you were a Minister of State and want to see good implementation at a local level for everybody. Unfortunately, however, nobody is held accountable for Traveller accommodation. We are reading out all these lovely statistics here today - and I do not mean this disrespectfully because I have worked with the officials sitting around this table in a very positive way - but, again, the Traveller community is not heard. We continue to fail and it is deemed absolutely okay.

In my four years here, you are the third Minister of State with responsibility for Traveller accommodation and, as Deputy Ó Cuív said, you have come into office at the tail end of this Government, which is very difficult. It is nothing personal, Minister, nor is it anything personal against the officials here. It is that continual failure to provide Traveller accommodation and adequate Traveller accommodation. What we have done for years, and what your Department has done for years, sadly, is try to make Travellers fake settled people. Travellers are now living in normal accommodation. Many Travellers do not want to live in standard accommodation but want to live on halting sites and in caravans. As Deputy Ó Cuív rightly said, it should be a matter of choice. Being the Chairperson of this committee and a member of the Traveller community, I see the absolutely dire conditions that Travellers live in the length and breadth of this country. No disrespect to the Department, but its numbers are not shown on the ground. The Irish Traveller Movement, Pavee Point and other Traveller organisations would say that we are failing the Traveller community around accommodation. I get it. There is a homelessness crisis in this country. We are failing people in general when it comes to housing in this country but, by God, we are failing the Traveller community and there is no accountability for that.

How can we do better with the Traveller caravan loan scheme? I know that over 160 loans have been given out over the past few years but I would rather they not be given out if they are not future-proofed. How can you support us to have good, sustainable future housing for the Traveller community? Who is held accountable for the non-delivery of Traveller accommodation? Will you next week support some of our amendments to the Planning and Development Bill relating to Traveller-specific accommodation?

Thank you, a Chathaoirligh, for your honesty with regard to some of the questions you have raised about Traveller-specific accommodation. As someone who has been within the Department for only the past 11 or 12 weeks, I have been trying to get to grips with what has been achieved. We did have challenges within local authorities in terms of their delivery, but I have seen huge progress over recent years. You are right that local authorities need to be held accountable. We actually are seeing progress in that regard. Local authorities previously were not even drawing down their full allocations in terms of their capital spend. Now we have seen for four years in a row that each local authority has fully drawn down its allocation to the tune of up to €80 million. In that regard, we see delivery of new halting site units and new group housing units. We see major refurbishments of halting site and group housing schemes, so local authorities are making a substantial difference. To your point, however, more needs to be done, and we will challenge them.

I re-emphasise that local government is a separate entity from central government. The county councillors hold the local authority executive to account in respect of the Traveller accommodation programmes. They compile them and they need to deliver them on the ground within their local areas. We have seen significant multi-annual capital investment and current funding to the tune of over €100 million in a four-year period. We are seeing a change of culture and, I think, a change in how local authorities are asked to deliver Traveller-specific accommodation. We need to continue that progress. Local authorities are supporting Traveller communities not just with Traveller-specific accommodation but also with private rental sector accommodation. That is important to emphasise. Over 13% of Traveller households have been supported through RAS, HAP, rent supplement or long-term leasing. From what I see as to how local authorities are providing accommodation, they have supported over 1,600 households in finding adequate accommodation outside Traveller-specific accommodation.

We need to not just re-emphasise Traveller specific, but other areas where Traveller communities are being supported.

I turn to the caravan loan scheme. It is my intention that the options for a national scheme will be brought forward later this year. I re-emphasise the point that the considerations and views expressed during the pilot need to be reflected on, and we will address the areas and issues that have arisen from the pilot and build on its success. As I said, it has been beneficial to those households and families who have accessed the loan scheme. We need to ensure we can continue to provide adequate accommodation solutions for Travellers. Taking what Deputy Ó Cuív and other members have referenced, I hope to have that report shortly. I will work with Mr. Crowley, the ITM, Bernard Joyce and other Traveller organisations and groups to bring forward a report. I am sure this committee will scrutinise it and ensure it is fit for purpose. We want to ensure that if we deliver a national scheme it delivers for all Traveller families and is fit for purpose. That is important. We will have robust engagement with the Department of Public Expenditure, NDP Delivery and Reform, but we need to re-emphasise - to return to Deputy Ó Cuív's point - how important it is for a lot of these families to move to more sustainable accommodation in the future. That is our commitment.

In the past four years there have been some positive changes. It sounds like an awful lot of money to people listening in, but it is about how that money being spent. I know that in one specific halting site, there could be hundreds of thousands of euro. It could be about fixing a door. Poor maintenance is probably the correct term. I have seen the changes in the past four years. This committee has seen some positive changes and we welcome that. We welcome the news from the Department that Spring Lane is being redeveloped. We know the officials genuinely care. Yesterday, we received news that Cena has been awarded €150,000. It is a Traveller authority that works with the Traveller community and for the Traveller community on accommodation. It is important that we work together and say there have been some positive changes, but we must and should do more. I am delighted to hear some of the positive actions coming down the road.

I turn to the Planning and Development Bill 2023. I do not know whether it will the Minister of State or the Minister, Deputy Darragh O'Brien, taking it in the Seanad next week. Some of the amendments we put in will address some of the dire failures on the part of the State and local authorities in regard to the Traveller community. I ask the Minister of State to support some of our recommendations next week.

There has been progress on housing in general, which is obviously good for Travellers because a lot of people on the housing list in Galway, for example, are from the Traveller community. However, the list still gets longer, and the number of homeless people is not coming down. I often wish we did not use the word "homeless" because some people think we are only talking about those sleeping in the streets. I am still not clear if the outstanding demand from Travellers looking for houses of all types has gone down or up in the past three years. I should also warn the Minister of State that the committee collectively has a number of allergies, and they are getting worse and more acute. One of them is to reports, reviews and plans. The Minister of State knows that by the time they have done that, he will be gone. We are saying that for his own good. There are obvious decisions that could be made without a report, review or whatever. Some things we mentioned today have been so reviewed that it is time for decisions. Some of the best decisions I saw made in government were made fast by people who took decisions, including by Ministers for Finance. I accept the problem that in those days finance and public expenditure were in the one Department. They just decided something was so obvious that it needed to be done. They saw that the cost was not great, and the human benefit far outweighed any modest cost. I just thought I would warn the Minister of State about this allergy. It is quite contagious. He might get it too. It is an allergy we need in the body politic, because during my time in politics the amount of time going round the mulberry bush has grown and grown. I am not saying it is the case with the Minister of State, but I have seen cases where a Department decides to develop a plan. What you get after two or three years is a copy and paste of what Departments were doing anyway and little innovation. We should give a warning at this stage, because it is only fair the Minister of State knows that we have these strong allergies, and we will be back again and again in a short time.

We have seven months to get things done, and we are confident the Minister of State will do things, but we are looking for modest things. Modest change will make a massive difference if we could achieve it. This committee made a decision, thanks to the Chair and the members, to go for quick wins and not try to change the world in one go. We have been focused on what we are trying to do, and we have been modest. We are trying to go to the most urgent things first.

I will respond to Deputy Ó Cuív. He has re-emphasised the importance of needs analysis within local authorities to determine the level of demand. We issued guidelines in December 2023 relating to the preparation, adoption and implementation of the local authority TAP. The fifth round of the programme was adopted in 2019. That will run until the end of this year. What is really important for local authorities is that they comply with the guidelines issued by the Department and that they trust the process of how they assess the level of need in their area, be it Galway city or county, Mayo or across the country. That is important because local authorities need to continuously engage with the Traveller communities on the ground, but also ensure that the preparation, adoption and implementation of the new TAP programme from 2025 to 2029 will meet the current need and demand for delivery within each local authority. That will then form our capital programmes leading into the coming budgetary cycles. It is important that local authorities do this in a comprehensive manner.

I thank the Minister of State. We only have a few months left of this Government and I do not know if I will be lucky enough to get an opportunity to come back again. I may never have that opportunity. However, we must strive to have a good relationship and be able to bring about positive change in accommodation for Travellers. The Minister of State and the Department can genuinely bring about change in Traveller accommodation. We look forward to working with him in the future. We thank him for all of his work to date on Traveller accommodation. We also thank the officials - David, Patrick and Karen. I have worked closely with them in the last four years. We all want positive change for Travellers. We may see it from different angles but we all want positive and sustainable accommodation for the Traveller community. I thank the Minister of State for his time this morning. It has been very useful having him here for our report. We must hope and demand changes. If there is no other business then I propose that we have our next private meeting on 26 September. Is that agreed? Agreed.