Joint Committee on Transport and Communications debate -
Wednesday, 10 Jul 2024

The purpose of the meeting today is for the joint committee to seek an update on the National Transport Authority's sustainable travel operations. I am very pleased to welcome on behalf of the committee from the National Transport Authority: Ms Anne Graham, chief executive officer; Mr. Hugh Creegan deputy CEO and director of transport, planning and investment; and Mr. Jeremy Ryan, director of public transport services.

I will now read a quick note on privilege. Witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against a person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable, or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of the person or entity. If witnesses' statements are potentially defamatory in respect of an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative they comply with any such direction.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

I remind members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex in order to participate in public meetings. I will not permit a member to participate where they are not adhering to this constitutional requirement. Therefore, any member who attempts to participate from outside the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting. In this regard, I ask any members participating via Microsoft Teams, prior to making a contribution, that they confirm they are on the grounds of the Leinster House campus.

I now invite Ms Graham to make her opening statement, please.

I thank the Chairperson and members of the committee for the invitation to attend. I understand that the committee wishes to receive an update on the National Transport Authority’s sustainable travel operations. To assist me in dealing with the committee's subsequent questions, I am joined by Hugh Creegan, deputy CEO, and Jeremy Ryan, director of public transport services with the authority.

The authority is responsible for the provision of an integrated, accessible public transport system. BusConnects and Connecting Ireland are key public transport programmes where the authority, in association with transport operators and local authorities, has planned new and improved networks to allow the continued economic and social development of our cities, towns and rural areas. The services are planned by the authority to allow residents and visitors the choice of sustainable, low carbon emission transport for some or all of their journeys.

Once again, I am happy to report that public transport numbers continue to grow on all our subsidised services. The total passenger numbers in 2023 at 311 million represented a 24% growth on the previous year’s figures and a 5% increase on pre-Covid passenger journeys.

In 2024 to date, we have seen a 9% growth on bus services in Dublin and a 10% growth in Luas services. Bus services operated outside Dublin by Bus Éireann grew substantially last year at 20% higher than 2022 passenger journey numbers but this growth has tempered to 6% this year so far. Rail services grew to 46.1 million passenger journeys in 2023, which was just back at pre-Covid levels, and the growth in volume this year so far exceeds 2023 levels by 9%. Our passenger numbers on regular rural services delivered under the Connecting Ireland programme continue to grow exponentially. This phenomenal growth does bring about its own challenges where demand exceeds capacity at times. We are working with operators to provide additional capacity where necessary and where driver and fleet resources allow.

Some key service improvements that have been introduced in recent times include the southern orbital bus services in Dublin, which have seen 40% growth in passenger numbers compared to background network growth, since they were introduced. Some 41 inter-city rail cars, ICR, are being introduced to the rail fleet, which will allow additional services to be introduced in the new rail timetable from August this year. Some 16 new or enhanced Connecting Ireland rural bus services have been introduced in the first half of 2024. Our ambition is to continue to improve services across our cities, towns and rural Ireland through our BusConnects and Connecting Ireland programmes in partnership with operators and local authorities. Phase 6 of BusConnects, which includes spine E, will be introduced later this year.

Along with a number of customer service metrics, the key performance metrics for all bus operators include lost kilometres, which is a measure of the contracted service kilometres that were not operated. It also includes punctuality, which is measured for each stop along the route and is measured differently for low frequency routes compared to high frequency routes. These metrics, along with other customer-focused metrics are used by the authority to measure operator performance. The reports on transport operator performances are published regularly on our website and an annual performance report is produced. The latest that is available is for 2023. The NTA does not pay for any services that failed to operate where the failure was in the control of the operator. There are also penalties imposed on operators for the punctuality target for the service or contract not being met. Similarly, failure to meet the fare collection targets can result in a financial penalty. In contrast, if the operator exceeds any targets, a bonus is paid.

In recent times, the performance of the bus operators has been impacted by the loss of drivers and mechanics and this has resulted in the loss of services and an increase in lost kilometres. In terms of driver recruitment, Dublin Bus and Go-Ahead are in a stable position, but Bus Éireann has shortages in Cork in particular which is impacting its performance in this city. Recruitment of additional drivers and mechanics for BusConnects in Dublin is steady but it is not at the pace that we would like to see, which is delaying the next phases of BusConnects Dublin.

The next challenge that is facing the operation of bus services and, to some extent, Luas services is the growing level of car congestion in our towns and cities. We urgently need to address the lack of priority for the bus services because their end-to-end journeys are increasing because of car congestion. For example, route 208 in Cork has seen its journey time increase by 25% in the last five years. To ensure the same frequency of service, the authority must add in additional fleet and drivers.. In the case of route 220 in Cork we have added four additional vehicles and up to 16 additional drivers to this route in recent years at a cost of €500,000. In the face of congestion continually worsening and a lack of bus priority, further expenditure of approximately €1 million will need to be expended on this route in the coming months, just to stand still. This situation is replicated right across the system, such that I estimate that tens of millions of euro are being added to the cost of operation of bus services just to maintain the same level of services. The provision of bus priority through BusConnects schemes allows us to reverse that trend and start building in efficiencies into the service that can be re-invested back into improved frequency and coverage of services. It makes economic sense.

In Dublin, we have six of the 12 corridors that have received planning approval from An Bord Pleanála with no substantial amendments to the schemes. Two of those schemes are the subject of judicial reviews and cannot be progressed until those judicial review processes conclude. The NTA is now planning to bring two schemes forward to commence construction in the first quarter next year, namely, Liffey Valley to city centre and Ballymun-Finglas to city centre. The remaining schemes will be scheduled sequentially such that a maximum of four schemes will be undertaken at any one time. While there will inevitably be some disruption during the works, the customers of the bus services operating on those routes will be the first to benefit from end-to-end bus priority, shorter journey times and much greater levels of reliability and punctuality. The authority will have in place a comprehensive programme of local engagement to ensure that residents and business owners are informed of any impending work that will impact their local area. In terms of the other cities, BusConnects Cork sustainable transport corridors are being finalised for planning by the NTA.

In summary, the key priorities for the NTA to achieve improvements in public transport services are: adequate capital funding in the current and future NDPs to deliver improved transport infrastructure to support the growing sustainable transport demand and sustainable multi-annual funding for the operation of public transport services. That concludes my introductory statement and I trust that we can answer any queries that arise.

First, I thank Ms Graham and her team very much for being here. It is clear from her opening remarks that participation in public transport is back to pre-Covid levels and is higher than pre-Covid levels. All that success brings its own challenges. Occasionally on Twitter or X, one will see people queuing at bus stops, but their buses are going past them because they are already full. We all understand that there are occasional days on which this can happen, such as during an all-Ireland final, if a big concert is on, etc. Yet, how bad is the congestion, generally speaking? Are there capacity constraints every Monday morning and every Friday? That may not be the case on Mondays and Fridays because people are working from home then, but when are the problems? How is the NTA moving to resolve those problems?

Touching on that, we know that airlines charge different prices at different times. Have we looked into the idea of peak fares? I am not saying that the peak fares should be higher, but maybe the off-peak fare should be lower. Maybe the €2 fare could become €1.80 or €1.70, etc., at one time of the day rather than another. This could get people to consider getting the Luas at 7.45 a.m. rather than 8.15 a.m. It might spread things out a bit better. I do not know if this is feasible. This is a matter of making sure that the capacity that is in place is used better. Equally, there are times of the day and week when people will want to travel and this is about how we handle those challenges.

I will respond to the question about fares and then I will ask Mr. Ryan to respond about the capacity.

On the fares side, our whole drive has been to simplify the fares system and offer a simplified fare structure. If we start to introduce a layer of off-peak fares, that would introduce a complexity to the system when we have been trying to reduce that. We introduced off-peak fares on Luas services a number of years ago but we have now removed them because they did not actually cause any change in behaviour. If people are travelling at a particular time, they are travelling at that time for a particular reason. The fare change, even when it is a substantial change, does not really make much difference to their travelling patterns. For that reason, we do not-----

Yes, I did remember the off-peak Luas fares. There was definitely a capacity constraint on the Dundrum line in pre-Covid times. People were actually getting the Luas from Dundrum to Kilmacud so they could cross the track to come back into town, because they could not get on the Luas in Dundrum. I do not think it is that bad now, but it was. This was before the carriages were linked, etc. I understand why the NTA does not do it. If the difference is small, it is not enough to incentivise the move.

Yes. There are times of the week and day when there will be a problem with capacity. Clearly, we want to try to get people to want to use public transport and we want to remove all the barriers to that. If a person is not able to get on a bus, that will be a huge disincentive in their trying to do so the next day.

We do have capacity issues at peak times, but we also have them off-peak and inter-peak times. We have particular issues in the evening, between the times at which students come out of schools and the time at which work closes. That is between 3.30 p.m. and 6 p.m. We also have issues on weekends on occasion, such as on Saturday afternoons when people are travelling out of Dublin. We have capacity issues then. This is a little bit different to pre-Covid times when services were quite peaked in terms of demand and when there was less demand for inter-peak times. The growth in demand has primarily been outside the peak, at weekends, evenings, and between the morning and evening peaks. That is where we have seen a growth and that is partly to do with changes in travel behaviours. It is also to do with the fact that services now run at those times. People have got used to being able to avail of those services outside of the traditional peak times as network redesign in Dublin in particular has been rolled out.

People have gotten used to being able to avail of those services outside of the traditional peak times. A network we designed in Dublin in particular has been rolled out. Changing fares to deal with that probably is not the answer.

We are putting on more capacity this autumn. We are in a reasonably good place at the moment. Summertime is always a bit quieter. However, at the end of August, we are putting on additional capacity in the cities and particularly in Dublin and Cork to get ready for the additional demand. We expect to see-----

There will be less downtime. As the Chair knows, a peak bus fleet is required to service that demand, but the times we are looking at are the evenings where there is a bit more capacity and also inter-peak in the morning. That will require additional expenditure and additional drivers. We think we have the drivers to cater for that in Dublin. In Cork, it is still a challenge at the moment. We are being told by Bus Éireann that we can get that in August or early September, but we will have to confirm that with it at a later date when we hear more about driver numbers.

In the case of Dublin, we expect the mechanic issue to be largely resolved this autumn. Forty mechanics have been recruited from the Philippines and we expect they are coming over to work in Dublin between now and September. That should alleviate the issues that were in Dublin, which were really preventing us from growing the network in Dublin as we had planned.

In Cork, there are ongoing driver issues. There are less than there were, but there is still a shortfall of 30 or 35 drivers. That is down from around 45 or 50 earlier in the year. Again, there is an intensive recruitment campaign going on by Bus Éireann in Cork now. At the moment, it is anticipating that it will be successful, and we can do what we need to do in September. As I said, we will have to watch this space.

I will want to get back in at some stage because my time has almost elapsed. There is an issue about the fairer fares, which Senator O'Loughlin will raise later so we will leave that for her to discuss. We got plenty of emails about it this morning, however.

Where are we in terms of disability proofing the entire network in respect of access to Luas and buses, better bus stop design and so on?

We have obviously progressed a number of issues with the transport operators. If we break it down into our city fleet, all our bus fleet is accessible with low-floor access ramps at the front, and the bus stops will be capable of receiving those ramps as well. Internally in the bus, we have moved to provide a separate wheelchair space and a buggy space. Approximately 80% of our city fleet would have---

We could certainly have two buggies. It might be a little bit tight for two wheelchairs. It depends on the size of the wheelchair. We have also introduced a secondary ramp on the middle door as a back-up if the mechanical ramp at the front is not operating. We are introducing hearing loops in the buses and next-stop announcement improvements. We are doing a lot to try to improve that with the operators.

However, there have been issues with railway station lifts. A programme of work has now been undertaken to replace lifts and put in CCTV call at lifts to try to protect them from antisocial behaviour and vandalism, which has unfortunately been affecting the availability of lifts on our rail services in particular. Then, we are working through a programme of putting in lifts where there may not be access to the second platform. Those works are ongoing as well.

Okay. I thank the witnesses for all that. I will come back in for a second round, and other members also want to come in. I thank the witnesses for all they are doing.

Deputy Crowe may go ahead if he is ready.

I welcome the representatives from the National Transport Authority. I thank them for their engagement. I have quite a few bits to put to them so I will go fairly quickly if that is okay. First, I wish to raise the whole issue of Local Link services, which I raised in the committee last week with the Minister, Deputy Eamon Ryan.

Over the past 18 months, many new accommodation centres have been set up for international protection applicants and also Ukrainian war refugees. Typically, when one of these centres opens, sometimes they are in towns and cities but sometimes they are in far-flung, remote parts of rural Ireland. Typically, a bus service follows, with Local Link fulfilling it.

I discovered an issue last week. This happens to be in my county, but it could be anywhere in Ireland because this will replicate itself unless someone screams for it to stop and intervenes. The famous Loop Head Lighthouse is in a beautiful remote part of County Clare. The contract for Loop Head Lodge is now up and will not be renewed. Therefore, the Ukrainian war refugees there will be moved elsewhere in the country. That is a whole different debate. We have now discovered that the Local Link service was tied into that accommodation centre, and it will now be pulled.

I made this point to the Minister, Deputy Ryan, and he agreed in this committee. This has been tough on people who have left. This will be extremely tough on people who have fled war. It has been extremely tough for international protection applicants, but it has also been tough on local communities. It has been a rough and tumultuous 18 months. Whatever we have gained in terms of public transport, we should not be losing. Whatever strings were tied into these initial contracts should now be retied so that these services stay embedded in the community.

I would like to hear Ms Graham’s response to that and if she would generally or maybe specifically intervene on this.

I am not aware of the particular service that Deputy Crowe has raised, but when these services were being initiated a separate funding stream was put in place to facilitate us to provide those services. It may be the case that there is a funding issue around that, but that is something I can check. If we have established a service, it is not necessarily in our interest to remove it and if we can retain it at all, we will do so. It may be the case that there is a funding issue around that, but we will check that out and get back to Deputy Crowe with more detail.

I thank Ms Graham very much. I appreciate that. Next, I want to raise the issue of capacity on some services at certain times, which was mentioned in the NTA’s opening statement. That is true. When you go to the Google Maps app, it will tell you when the next bus is busy and the information there is quite accurate. What is becoming a huge trend is that the early morning trains coming into Dublin are very much congested. This morning, I travelled on the 7.40 a.m. train. The earlier train, which was at 7.25 a.m., would have been about half full by the time it left Cork and collected passengers in Limerick Junction. It would increase as it went through Thurles and Portlaoise. Beyond Portlaoise, as you get to areas such as Newbridge, Sallins, Naas, etc., you will start seeing that the train becomes too full to the point that the passengers are not only standing between carriages, but they are also standing up and down the aisles of carriages and they are holding onto seats and are rocking over and back. I do not think it is safe. I do not think it is right. It is morally wrong that there are not more carriages when they are paying a lot of money to travel on those trains. I know the issue corrects itself as the day goes on, but surely there needs to be better oversight of the number of the carriages on those morning trains. Is it safe? I will ask that question. I know it is safe on the Luas and buses, but is it safe for someone when a train is travelling at 120 km/h, or whatever the speed is, that they should be standing in the aisle for the entire duration of the journey?

The issue of safety of the passengers and the volume of passengers is assessed by Irish Rail. The trains are designed for standing passengers. Generally, it is considered that there would be some standing passengers on some of those services. It is not ideal, and it is our preference to reduce the number of standing passengers on those services. A number of commuter services also serve those inner parts of the city. It might just be a timing issue. Those services are probably followed fairly quickly by a commuter service that can cover much of that capacity. As the Deputy knows, 41 ICRs are being introduced to the fleet and more fleet is being manufactured as part of the DART+ programme, in particular to try to build the capacity on the commuter services. This will allow other fleet to be introduced to the intercity services as well.

I might just add that Irish Rail does annual surveys in November of each year and crowding of carriages is assessed as part of that survey. If those surveys show that there is an unacceptable level of crowding, it will come to us with a revised plan where they have rolling stock to increase the length of trains. Also, in our contract, there is a contracted length of train for each service that Irish Rail operates. On occasion, for whatever reason, carriages are not included when they should be. We keep an eye on that through the contract.

I am no expert on this, but I use this service five or six times per week. The morning train and the early service to which I refer has three carriages, but as the day goes on, it will have seven carriages. Surely, the last trains at night that are going out of Dublin and are going to the other parts of Ireland should be bringing extra carriages to Cork, Limerick and Galway, etc., so that when they are going up through areas such as Thurles, Portlaoise, Newbridge, Naas, and Sallins, etc., they have the capacity-----

The carriages should be going west and south in the night-time. That is certainly how the airline industry works. The capacity goes a certain way in the morning.

Next, I want to ask about an issue that I raised as a parliamentary question. It was responded to yesterday evening, and I thank the NTA for that. Licences are granted by the NTA for day trip coach tour operators. I will not name them, but I think we can all guess which ones they are. There are a few of them operating in the country and they go to the NTA for licences. They seek licences on certain routes to iconic tourism sites in the west and south of Ireland. Increasingly, they are relegating the status of some of these, in their own words, to “photo stops”. These are photo stops along the roads. The coach will pull in, 50 passengers will get off, and this is dangerous. They will take a photo, they will get back on the bus and they will go again. This has totally hollowed out tourism in the west of Ireland. These iconic sites were once the magnet to bring people to the west. They get out and take a photo and they are gone again. It is Instagram tourism. Whether we like it or not, through the NTA’s licensing deals, it has become almost complicit in this, although maybe unwittingly so.

We are asking for more sustainable tourism, which would happen if we did not have these express services, which is what they have become. They shuttle around these narrow roads in Dingle and west Clare and drop these passengers off. They have breakfast in the morning in Dublin, they have dinner in the evening in Dublin and they stop in one place for lunch. It is hollowing out tourism, it is not safe, and it is not sustainable. I know that the NTA will say that this is not fully a function for it, but surely there needs to be some additional criteria in this licensing. We are not speaking about A to B services here, but tourism. There needs to be some stopping along the way. There has to be some value for the west of Ireland. I do not think this would happen in other countries where there is coach tourism that they would allow the shuttle service to go in and out, take a photo and go again. I would love if the NTA could put its eyes on that situation.

As I said to the Deputy, that is not our role. Our role is to ensure that they are licensed under the Public Transport Regulation Act. This is really about establishing and looking at the demand for those services and the proper stopping locations. Tourism policy is the responsibility of Fáilte Ireland, which is another authority. If that authority were to engage with us, the licensing authority, about what public transport can do, that would be something different. When we get an application for a licence, it is from a commercial business that has made a decision on what kind of service it wants to offer. We are not in a position to encourage it to do anything else with its commercial business. Like a normal licence for public transport service that is just for commuters or other passengers, if it decides to stop at a particular location, we will examine the demand, but we will not be requiring an operator to stay at a particular location for any particular time. That is not something that we-----

I think at a minimum they should elongate their schedules because they drive around like shuttles. They go around Doolin, the Cliffs of Moher and west Kerry where there are no roads that can take these vehicles. They are under this insane pressure to make it to the location where they get to the ferry to the Aran Islands, which I think is at Ros a Mhíl. They are under this insane pressure to get from Dublin all the way to that point of departure for the ferry. It is a matter of them taking a photo and going, so I just-----

Yes, I am just wrapping up with my final question. There is a whole different debate about school transport, but the point I wish to make is that much of the Bus Éireann fleet in rural areas throughout the country is tied up in the mornings and afternoons with bringing children to and from school. My home village of Parteen is an example because there is no bus service that goes in and out from there to Limerick city. A Bus Éireann coach goes out in the morning, collects children and brings them to the school gate. This fulfils a contract for the Department of Education. It then leaves the school gate, entirely empty of passengers, and returns to the Bus Éireann depot in Limerick. I have brought up this issue many times with the Minister, Deputy Foley. I have mentioned it to the Minister, Deputy Eamon Ryan. If there was a little bit of smart thinking, surely we could analyse how that bus goes out on a contract with the Department of Education, turns around, and returns to the depot as a Bus Éireann vehicle. Surely, with a little imaginative thinking, that could provide at a minimum a morning and afternoon service. Perhaps the NTA could advise on that situation. That is just one village, but it is happening all over the country. Many contracts are of course being fulfilled by private operators, but I think the NTA needs to have a chat with Bus Éireann in particular. How many of its vehicles are on the road each morning? This is not so relevant to the city area but let us take a village in the west of Ireland that may not have a bus service, or which may have a skeletal one. It is devastating, particularly for the older people in the village, to see an empty coach, which is a fabulous 241-registration vehicle, returning to the depot in the morning when it is empty. We are only 5 km from Limerick city but we do not have a service to bring us into it.

I am interested to hear about that particular situation, because a number of years ago we sought information on instances like that where we could do pilots to trial situations where a return journey of school transport could serve a Local Link-type service.

We found it difficult to find locations. We did several pilots. One in Waterford was particularly successful and it is now a fully established Local Link service. This is certainly something we can look at because we found it difficult to find locations where the return journey would be beneficial. The local school is usually not located where people would be returning from. If the Deputy will give me that information, we will certainly look at it in terms of planning.

I thank Ms Graham for the opening statement. It is clear from it that the number of passengers is growing across all the services. This is very welcome news. I see we have increased numbers on the buses, the Luas services and everywhere. We have increased the use of public transport and this is all very welcome. What springs to mind immediately in this context is capacity in this regard. On several occasions, we have had the Minister in here and he has, of course, made a great case for BusConnects and the removal of cars from the road to make space for the buses. Yet when I talk to people, most tell me that is not the issue. Instead, they tell me the issue is that buses are always full when they arrive and not that the cars are blocking the passage of the buses. I welcome the commitment that more services will be put in place and additional buses will be put on many of these routes.

The major issue we need to be looking at is expanding this network in future. The Luas to Lucan is one of the services we want to see moving along. I would like to get an update on these projects, including DART+. A whole range of issues exists here concerning where these projects are at and how soon we are going to see the resulting new capacity getting to the stage where we will have people travelling on them. MetroLink is the one project that springs to mind immediately. At this stage, the project has almost taken generations. We need to see movement on expanding this capacity.

To explain how road congestion can impact on capacity, where a bus is travelling with general car traffic, the speed of the car traffic impacts the speed of the bus. The impact is that it slows down the bus, which means there is a need to introduce additional time into the journey and this, in turn, means introducing additional fleet and drivers. You are not actually increasing overall capacity in that case; you are just providing the capacity because the journeys are longer. This is why we are finding we are pumping in many resources into dealing with road congestion rather than building capacity. Unfortunately, this is the position we are in.

This is why we need the reallocation of road space. It will not be needed everywhere. There will be pinch points, especially in towns and villages around the country, that may only need a short bit of bus priority to get the buses through. In the cities, however, we definitely need end-to-end bus priority just to make the services much more efficient. It will mean we will not be spending money to deal with increased journey times but putting it into providing actual capacity. We are at the point where bus priority really is a priority for us now. I hand over to Mr. Creegan to give an update on where the major projects stand.

To start with the BusConnects infrastructure, as mentioned in the opening statement, we have sought planning consent for 12 corridors to build bus priority and cycle lanes along. We have now got consent from An Bord Pleanála for six of those. We are, hopefully, going to go to tender for the first two at the end of this month and get them into the construction phase at the start of next year. As soon as we get another two corridors that are clean and there is no judicial review of them, we will get those into construction quickly too.

In terms of the other projects, MetroLink is with An Bord Pleanála, as the Deputy is aware.

The application was lodged in September 2022 and an oral hearing concluded in March this year. An Bord Pleanála has now written to Transport Infrastructure Ireland seeking that all additional information made available during the oral hearing now be published to allow people to review it and make submissions. I think that publication will occur in the coming weeks. We are, then, waiting for An Bord Pleanála to make its decision on the MetroLink project.

Regarding the rail side of things, several DART expansion schemes are with An Bord Pleanála now. The application for DART+ West was submitted in July 2022, I think, while that for DART+ South West was submitted in March 2023. This month, we have given Irish Rail the okay to submit a third railway order for what we call DART+ Coastal North, which consists of improvements as far as Drogheda. The application will go into An Bord Pleanála this month. We are hopeful one of these applications will come through pretty soon and Irish Rail is geared up to move the project into the construction phase as fast as possible.

A lot of work is going on in Cork too on the major project there, namely, the Cork area commuter rail project. Works are going on at Kent Station and shortly a contract will be awarded for the double-tracking of the line between Glounthaune and Midleton. In terms of the Luas projects, Luas Finglas will be the next line that will go to construction, in my view. A railway order application is ready to go into An Bord Pleanála. Government approval is required for that, which I believe will come through in the coming weeks. If this is the case, then that application will be submitted around September.

There is, then, a portfolio of projects coming up. In fairness, when we look back, there have been delays in the planning system. We think this situation has much improved now. We can see that decisions are coming out now, and well-reasoned ones. We are now moving from a planning phase for all these projects into, hopefully, a construction phase for all of them.

That aspect would have to be addressed. If the project is funded and does get approval, I would say construction would take about three and a half years to complete. Let us say it will take 18 months to go through the An Bord Pleanála process and then three and a half years to build, a five-year horizon would then be the earliest possible date for completion.

Okay. To move the rural issues, Local Link has provided a great service in many areas and has been revolutionary for some areas. Many areas are still left behind, though, and do not have required frequency and so on. I know some projects that have been put in are awaiting funding. Is this a case of waiting for the budget and hoping it is a giveaway one on the eve of an election or what is the situation here?

Obviously, we have a specific level here. As the Deputy will be aware, we have the Connecting Ireland programme and that was going to be a multiyear programme anyway. It was never going to be a case of us being able to deliver everywhere at once and was always going to have to be a phased programme of delivery. We have gone through several phases and they have been very successfully delivered, but it does take funding and resources to do it. We have a specific budget for this year and we are working to this budget. We will deliver as much as we can within these budgetary amounts.

Of course, we would always seek additional funding. If you are delivering services and you know there are gaps in them, there is always a requirement for additional funding. We can use additional funding across service delivery and infrastructure, but what would assist us greatly, and it is not something that is in place, because we go through an annual cycle of PSO funding and it goes through the budget every year, this means we have to stop-start in terms of planning. By the time we know what our budget is going to be and plan for delivery, it can be the second quarter of the following year before we are beginning to deliver. What would be helpful for us, therefore, as an authority would be some foresight of what the funding could be over a horizon of a few years because this would allow for much more efficient planning and delivery.

However, that is challenging with the current budgetary structure.

It is not as big a problem as in the cities but it has been a problem in certain areas. Driver availability in the industry generally was a problem for the past couple of years. It is pretty much confined to a small number of areas now - Cork and, to some extent, Limerick cities. We are not hearing of many issues regarding drivers in rural areas at the moment but it was an issue earlier in the year.

I thank the witnesses for coming before us and I want to compliment the secretariat on the briefing note that was provided to us. I am sure the NTA contributed to it but it is really thorough. I thank the secretariat for that.

On behalf of the Minister of State, Deputy Heydon, who obviously cannot be at this committee, and on the basis of the glut of emails we received from Kildare this morning and this afternoon, I wanted to raise a query with the witnesses regarding the timeline for the implementation of the reduced fares for the commuter belt areas, including Kildare, Newbridge, my own area of Fingal, Louth and Meath, and along the introduction of the new commuter belt. I understand Oireachtas Members were told recently that it would be quarter 3. It now looks like January. Will the witnesses clarify, please?

That is the unfortunate case. Unfortunately, we have to announce that the Irish Rail contractor that manages its ticketing system, particularly the ticket-vending machines is not in a position to deliver to the timeline we would have liked and has given a timeline of quarter 1 of next year. We are obviously trying to see how we can mitigate that and if there are any changes we can make. The other thing we are also considering is whether there are other elements of fares we need to bring forward now so we package up even more with regard to that delivery. Unfortunately, we are very disappointed to say this introduction is now delayed from quarter 3 to quarter 1 next year.

Absolutely, yes. It is our ambition to deliver it as quickly as possible. We knew there was infrastructure required with respect to validators. They are being put in place but, unfortunately, it is the back office works that need to be done which are taking the time. We cannot commit to doing it any faster until we have engaged with the contractor to see if there are any other ways of delivering it faster.

I thank Ms Graham for that reply. I have six items I wanted to touch on. I hope to have enough time to do so. I will start with the DART+. The witnesses have gone through that and Coastal North is in process, having been approved by Cabinet. There is an interim roll-out planned, I understand. Are there any impediments to choosing the implementation date for the roll-out of DART+ Coastal North while the railway order is in place? I assume the NTA is waiting for the rolling stock. Obviously, that is needed before it does anything. Are there any perceived or real-time delays in the delivery of that rolling stock?

No, it is all within the expected territory. In fact, the first trial train will come in later this year but it will go through a whole series of tests over the next 12 to 15 months. In early 2026, we would expect to see a DART running to Drogheda, effectively. To go back to an earlier question, that allows some of the other diesel fleet to be taken off that line and cascaded onto other lines, which also deals with capacity issues.

Could I ask for clarity? On Irish Rail's website there is a very helpful document, which is literally a PDF on the website. It details that there will be diminution of service for existing services at existing stations. What Mr. Creegan has inferred will be that some services will be removed to provide services elsewhere. I wonder are these communities and train stations that will be served by DART+ Coastal North going to see a reduction in the number of what I call diesels, or will they remain the same and have the additional DARTs?

It is certainly an increase in capacity and much more modern rolling stock. The frequency may take a while to build up so we are not committing to increased frequency on day 1. We are committing to transitioning the existing fleet over to the new fleet and then we will see afterwards what additional increases we can do beyond that.

I thank Mr. Creegan for that. With regard to any research the NTA has carried out on fare incentivisation - in other words, usage incentivisation - the Luas was mentioned with regard to there not being a change in demand for the use of that service when there were changes in the pricing structure. The Luas is a little bit like the railway lines. It is a fixed service in a fixed location and it does not move. Therefore there is a fixed demand. Buses, on the other hand, are everywhere and they are a different thing. Has any research been done in any other jurisdictions that have used fare structures to incentivise passenger usage?

Various cities and countries have various fare structures, and some have off-peak fares for weekends and outside of peak travel, while some do not. The point we were making was that, regarding travel patterns we have seen since Covid, the growth has primarily been outside of peak. We are getting that growth without off-peak fares. Do we need more of that growth? We would need the capacity to deal with it in first place if we were to get more of that growth. At the moment, there is not a strong case for having higher peak fares compared with off-peak fares that we can see based on our experience.

I might add to that. We were monitoring to see what happened with the 20% fare reduction. While it is difficult to identify whether that drove additional passenger numbers, given everything else that was happening and that we were recovering from Covid, and whether passenger numbers would have been recovering anyway, there is no doubt the 20% reduction did result in increased passenger numbers but it is probably difficult to put an actual figure on that.

We have also done some research because there has certainly been a push for free fares across the public transport network. The research that has been done elsewhere has shown that while it may increase passenger numbers by a certain amount, what you find is that people are doing less walking and cycling as a result of free fares. They are just transferring from the more sustainable modes like walking and cycling - the active modes - to public transport. That is the kind of behaviour-----

On the metro, it is a little bit of a pet project of mine in my own constituency. I very much welcome the appointment of Dr. Sean Sweeney and the advances that are being made. I note the remarks that have been made thus far. We are all waiting on tenterhooks for An Bord Pleanála to get us a decision, and I certainly hope the right decision is made. I very much hope that once that decision is made and the matter is concluded, we can have the NTA in and have a lengthy debate about how we might assist it in getting that project up and running. That is not a question but more of a remark.

With regard to fleet optimisation, Irish Rail has obviously published plans. We know about the electric buses that have been delivered or are in the process of being delivered under the theme of sustainable transport operations, which is what this meeting is about. Perhaps the witnesses could write to the committee and inform us or identify for us the timeline for the electrification of the Dublin Bus fleet and those in other cities and large urban centres.

Could they also include remarks on the operators' capacity to provide those buses? I am sure every urban TD and Senator in this building would be aware of ghost buses that are not showing up because real time is not real time; it is timetable time. We have buses that do not show up, not to be confused with the tourist offering, which is a ghost bus. I want to make sure that we have a good grip as to precisely what has been ordered, by whom and what plans are there. As I said, the Irish Rail timetable is very well known. It is published. It is up on their website. With other operators, it is not so much the case. I wonder whether the NTA might be able to provide us with additional information.

My other point for a reply is in relation to the BusConnects projects. The chairman quite helpfully ran through it at the beginning. The NTA is on phase 6, I understand, which, by extrapolation, is spine E. Can the witnesses provide us with a full list of their expectations as to when the next number of services, right down to No. 12, are rolled out, with a quarter or half-year associated with it, in order that the committee can be fully briefed on precisely what their expectations are in terms of the actually buses? Separately, it would be extremely helpful if they could provide us with information in regards to their plans for planning applications for the infrastructure side of the BusConnects projects.

Finally, I compliment the NTA for the foresight in the additional funding that is being provided to the rural link services. Local Link is the only service provider in the State that I have not received a complaint about in many years.

I have had no reliability issues and no state-of-bus service or interaction-with-the-driver issues - nothing like that. I am delighted with the service that has been provided. It has been relatively responsive, too, from the NTA's perspective, at granting additional extensions for parts of my rural constituency. I am very pleased with that.

I would be grateful if they would not mind commenting on the BusConnects question.

The decision was made three or four years ago, to transition our urban bus fleet all to a fully-electric fleet. We have approximately 100 buses in operation here in Dublin, 34 in Limerick and more coming on stream. We have a pathway to fully replace all the fleet on a staged basis and we are happy to provide that to the committee.

I thank the witnesses for always being so available to the committee and being so frank and honest in their answers. I appreciate that.

I will following up on the point in relation to the Dublin commuter zone. Obviously, this impacts my own constituency. However, in relation to Newbridge, while the committee received many emails this morning, this campaign has been going on for six years. It was started by the Newbridge Labour Party, with Mark Wall, now a Senator, and it has gathered momentum. We have had the community development campaign, led by Jennifer Caffrey, down there for the past three years. It is greatly needed. People have made decisions or life choices based, in terms of living and moving to Newbridge, on the commuting capabilities and the costs. I could sense Ms Graham's frustration with Irish Rail. I impress upon her that anything she could do to bring this back closer to the September timetable would be greatly appreciated. As I say, there were 8,000 signatures handed over at one stage to the NTA by the group and Ms Graham knows how deeply felt it is in that community.

On MetroLink, we are way behind the intended schedule of 2027. Could the witnesses provide any further details of what has been pre-prepared in advance of what, we hope, will be a favourable decision from An Bord Pleanála? They mentioned lining up pre-tenders, etc. Is there any other detail they could provide in terms of what the NTA has done and can do in its capacity to ensure MetroLink is not delayed any further? We recently had a ministerial intervention in relation to the Dublin city traffic plan which has the capacity to delay that much-needed project in Dublin. Does the NTA have any concerns as a body about that level of ministerial or governmental interference in relation to MetroLink?

Mr. Creegan can talk about the preparations. As for the Government, MetroLink is part of the national development plan. It is an important strategic project for the region and for the country. We do not have any concerns that there is no political will to deliver that. We believe that there is a will, across party and across Government, to deliver MetroLink for the State.

In terms of getting MetroLink ready for construction, assuming a positive decision, a major body of work has been ongoing for a while and is still continuing to make sure that tender documents for all the various contracts that are needed are in place and that planned enabling works are organised. All of that is being set up so that as soon as a railway order comes out, assuming the funding in place, we have got a clear pathway to deliver it on the ground. Tender documents, pre-qualification procedures, planning of advanced works, etc., all are well in hand.

Brilliant. I thank Mr. Creegan.

In relation to accessibility, a few weeks ago I met a constituent who is blind and is a regular bus user but who has had buses drive pass him at bus stops and has had to rely on the kindness of strangers at bus stops to make him aware of when buses arrive. Is any work being done, such as app technology, that can aid visually-impaired people in using the bus services, be it Dublin Bus or others?

In terms of wheelchair accessibility, in particular, on the bus fleet, there is limited capacity. Even the most modern buses may only have capacity for one wheelchair. If there are buggies or prams, that can cause difficulty. Is there any further work being done to improve accessibility to the buses and in terms of the new fleet coming on stream?

I can answer the first bit in relation to accessibility for visually-impaired people boarding buses. We have tested apps on this. Something we are also looking at doing in our new contracts that are coming up for renewal with Dublin Bus and Bus Éireann, and we might role out to other contracts as well for bus, is that if there is somebody who is visually impaired at a stop or obviously visually impaired waiting at a stop, a bus pulls up regardless of whether the person signals for the bus to stop and ask the person if he or she wishes to board the service and tell the person what service it is to make sure that he or she can board if he or she needs to.

Would there be practical implications of that given the timetabling constrains on the bus services or anything like that? Obviously, there would be multiple bus services that could be coming from multiple areas. Particularly where they are converging on somewhere such as the Ballymun Road or the Swords Road, one could have buses coming from Coolock, Swords or the Glasnevin direction. Are there difficulties there?

On the fleet, for all our bus fleet we put a lot of effort into designing the layout that it works for everyone, and particularly for people with disabilities.

There is no use having a spacious wheelchair space if the gangway to it is very restrictive. That gets a lot of attention during the design stage. As soon as the first buses get built of each model, we arrange a consultation through the IWA with wheelchair users. If there is feedback from that suggesting modifications are required, we address it. We put a lot of effort into optimising it.

We run a "Please Don't Buggy in the Wheelchair Zone" campaign to encourage those who use the wheelchair space for buggies to move to an available buggy space, where there is one, if a wheelchair user wants to access the wheelchair space. There can be challenges if the bus is full but the priority is that the space be available for wheelchair users.

Will the witnesses provide an update on the status of the 2019 order for 41 rail carriages, which were designed to increase capacity by up to 10% on the northern commuter line? In addition, we are in public consultation on the plans there. There is massive population growth along the northern commuter line in my and Deputy Farrell's constituency and right up to Louth. Huge political pressure is being applied regarding the rail line between Howth Junction and Howth, which could become a shuttle service in order to allow the northern commuter line meet demand that is there and will grow in years to come. Given the massive population growth along the coast up the northern line, is it clear we will need a shuttle service of some kind on the spur out to Howth? If we do not and we continue a full schedule out to Howth - and this is the key bit - will that impact the ability of the northern commuter line to meet demand in the coming years?

There are lots of parts to that question. The short answer is not yet, but at some point in the future it will prove very difficult to run a direct service to Howth at regular frequency because of the overall needs of the northern line. The line can handle 12 to 16 train paths per hour. At some point, that will get used up and at that stage, we think the right thing to do will be to run a shuttle service from Howth Junction to Howth. Part of the DART+ railway order is to revamp the Howth Junction station to make that easier. It is important to say, because I know there is a lot of concern out there, that in the early days we do not need to make that change but we are setting up the project because in the future it will be required and it will be done at that stage.

The positive for people in Howth would be that currently they have a 20-minute DART service and when the change is made there can be much higher frequency from Howth to Howth Junction, every ten minutes or even more frequently. If we get the station reconfigured well to make the interchange easier, overall journeys, if you count walking and waiting time, should get shorter. They can leave when they want to and get to where they want to. As of now, we do not need to make those changes but we are future-proofing, as you should do when planning something.

I will revisit the delay in the roll-out of the new fare structure. What are the practical implications of that? Does it only apply to rail services? Is the issue unique to Irish Rail? Is the phased roll-out still on course for other areas, such as bus services in Navan and elsewhere in County Meath?

My colleague, Deputy Patricia Ryan, and others asked me to raise the issue with Newbridge and Kildare but it effects my county equally. I have raised repeatedly the anomaly of Laytown, Gormanston and Drogheda versus Balbriggan. I have a student in Leinster House today from Stamullen who should be getting the train from Gormanston but when asked from where did he get the train, he of course replied from Balbriggan, because that is where people go in that area or else they stay in the car.

This has been raised for a long time. When the NTA was before the committee previously, we asked these questions and got the answer that there is a review. We welcomed that review but it took an extended period. At the start of the year, we had announcements. What does it say about the NTA's preparation for the roll-out of the strategy that we are in the position we are in? In January, a phased roll-out was announced but in July, the NTA is saying it will not happen in September and will be delayed. Effectively, the delay is in the region of 100%.

We are not happy to be making that announcement. The delay is not in our interest or that of customers. However, we are not the client for a number of contracts that deliver the fare structures across our operations so we rely on our operators and their contractors to deliver our fare structure. This will be different with next-generation ticketing, where we take much more direct control of ticketing equipment and fares as a result of the issues that have arisen with delivery.

The delay is to do with the back office, as Ms Graham said, as well as the need to reconfigure the gating equipment to enable the new fare structure. In relation to timelines, when we announced quarter 3, that was the indication we got from the operator, so that was doable. When the operator engaged in more detail with its contractor, the contractor informed it that it was not able to meet the timescale expected by Irish Rail.

We do not like being in that position. We are usually careful around announcing dates. We find it difficult to give dates for certain things because we are circumspect. However, based on our experience up to then, we were able to deliver dates around changes to fares and infrastructure. This is a significant change because it changes boundaries. It is more significant than what we have done up to now. We probably should not have indicated a date until we were more clear about what the works involved.

It is unfortunate it has happened. We do not like to be in a position where we are saying it is delayed, but we will work with the contractor and Irish Rail to try to bring that timeline down to a more reasonable one.

We are constantly engaged with Irish Rail on every aspect of the delivery of services, including fares infrastructure. It was involved with us when we were examining the fares. It is just unfortunate that its contractor is not currently in a position to be able to deliver in the expected timeframe, but we continue to engage with it------

Based on our experience, we believed we were putting together the right estimated timeframe for what would be in place. Irish Rail also put its best estimate on it at the time we made the announcement. It is only as more details emerged from the operator's contractor that unfortunately, we got this timeline.

I have not finished. Mr. Ryan stated the NTA would like to roll them out together. I am sure it would. I am sure the customers who use public transport every day would like to see them rolled out separately, because they will benefit from them. That benefit has now been delayed and will not be delivered in the timeframe that was committed to.

-----and some customers will probably be quite happy that it has been delayed. That is not in anyone's interest either. There is a mixture of increases and reductions in fares and it is quite a significant change. As I have said consistently, we are disappointed that we are not able to deliver it earlier for customers, because they are also our customers. We want to get the best and fairest structure for them. That is why we have been working on this structure for a period to introduce a fairer structure across the country.

On the point that has been made about delivering it as quickly as possible, I urge the NTA to do everything it can - quarter 1 runs to the end of March - and bring March delivery back to January, or bring January back to December, November or October.

A point was made earlier about school transport services and the opportunity for scheduled services to complement or substitute for them. I raise the case of Stamullen in east Meath again, which I raised with the Minister, Deputy Ryan, a few weeks ago. Some students there have been left behind because of the strict eligibility criteria for the school transport service. There is a scheduled service in the area, but they do not marry up as well as they might. Will there be an opportunity to look at that again for September 2024? Will the NTA look at it?

I welcome the NTA to the transport committee. I concur with Deputy Duncan Smith's comment that the NTA is always willing to engage and that is appreciated by all members of the committee.

I saw the Environmental Protection Agency, EPA, report this week, which is positive about emissions reductions. We are here to discuss sustainability in transport. We have seen good work being done in agriculture and results being achieved. We know farmers want to and will do more and will get better results. We have seen a significant reduction in emissions from energy and we will also do a lot more in that space with further offshore development that is awaiting planning permission at the moment.

Transport is still a challenge. Its emissions rose slightly, but there is some comfort in the fact that we are slowing down the rise. We have not halted it and we need to go in the opposite direction. Everything we do to make public transport easier, more frequent, secure, affordable and attractive across the board, whether that applies to cycling, walking, buses, trains and so forth, is important. I encourage the NTA to continue to do what it is doing and we will do the same. I do not want the NTA to comment on Government policy. The programme for Government sets out a commitment for a 2:1 ratio of spend on public transport to new roads. Will the NTA comment on that principle? Transport projects are quite long and surety and financial certainty are needed to plan, design and build them. How important is it going forward that the 2:1 spend is retained for public transport to give the NTA and transport companies confidence that they will get the investment that is needed?

We will not comment on the split in the spend. All we can comment on is that we need surety of commitment to financing the sustainable transport aspect of the national development plan, because as we are building and planning for those systems - especially for such large infrastructure as MetroLink - we need to see commitment to those projects continue through national development plans to ensure, for the construction and design communities, the people who will build these systems, that the Government remains committed to investment in the infrastructure. That builds confidence for delivery in the industry and allows - as the Deputy will be aware, we have multiple projects of different sizes - the construction industry to have a supply of a range of projects, including smaller active travel projects up to the largest projects, such as MetroLink.

It is absolutely critical for the reasons Ms Graham outlined. I urge any future Government to adopt that type of policy. The transport budget will always be there, but knowing what the ratio of the spend will be gives confidence.

We spoke about driver recruitment earlier. How does train driver recruitment stand at the moment? I engaged with the NTA about improving the weekend service to Greystones. It is every half hour Monday to Friday, but it is an hourly service at the weekend at the moment. I would like to see that improved. We are waiting for train drivers and I expect to see an improvement in the service. Will the NTA tell me about the progress on rail recruitment?

Unfortunately, that still has not been possible because Irish Rail is making up for the Covid-19 pandemic. This year, its driving school trained drivers to replace those who have retired. It did not manage to recruit or train drivers during the Covid-19 pandemic. That additional service to Greystones at the weekends has not been possible. We anticipate that it will be possible in 2025, subject to funding.

In the first year, we saw active travel budgets.

In the second year, we saw the recruitment of staff by local authorities to design and implement those projects. It did not really bed in until the third year of this Government, when everything started to work well together. What is the process when a local authority district engineer and members identify potential active travel projects within their districts? They then feed that into the active travel teams within the local authorities. It then goes up to the NTA to decide which projects should be prioritised and which are deliverable.

There are small projects within areas, however. I reference in particular those relating to the tightening of the radius on some roads, where the radius is quite wide and encourages cars to sweep around at quite some speed. In every town and village in Ireland, there are areas where the radius of the curve could be tightened. This does not prevent cars going through. It does not stop cars at all; rather, it slows down cars as they approach a junction and makes it safer for people cycling and walking, and for all road users. Those projects tend to be small. My concern is that because there are many small projects like that, they do not make it through the filter system. I do not know how local authority district engineers can then do that tightening of the radius of curves out of the budgets they have. Can they approach with, say, ten or 15 projects and bundle those together?

The short answer is "Yes". To elaborate on that a little further, a couple of years ago we were in the position where we had more funding available than projects that were ready. As the Deputy knows, it has now changed. We now find we are unable to fund all the requests local authorities have, which is a good sign. That is a good place to be by comparison with the alternative. We are also conscious that we want to build up the cycling networks in particular. We have a lot of disparate pieces of cycling infrastructure. Until a network is put together, it does not become usable to people. The number one priority for us in respect of local authorities is to fill in the gaps to try to get a clearer network. At this stage, we have developed a plan for each local authority for what the core network will be. That is not to say there are not measures such as pedestrian crossings, junction tightening and so on, which the Deputy mentioned, that we also want to do. There will be limits to what we can accommodate, however, if we want to achieve that overall network ambition.

We are not against small projects at all. We have many small projects around the place. Sometimes, it is easier and looks more coherent and thought through if a bundle is put together. We are happy to consider that in particular cases. As I said, it is a challenge because that local authority will probably have twice as many projects that it wants us to fund than we have funding for. It becomes a discussion with the local authority in trying to prioritise what makes sense out of the package.

Yes. We have loads of bundles. I am not sure whether too many concern junction tightening. It is the same with footpath schemes. In many cases, local authority engineers have bundled up together five, six, seven or ten particular pieces of footpath renewal projects. We are happy to take that as a singular project, which is then funded with singular paperwork running for that. The same can occur for junction-tightening schemes.

It is a very good question. The answer relates to how far Maynooth goes out on the rail network. We wanted to capture Maynooth and Hazelhatch on the Kildare suburban line. That largely dictated how far out we would go. I remind people that the Dublin Bus network extends beyond 23 km. That is, exceptionally, also within that city zone.

I had not intended to ask this question but Mr. Ryan has set it up very nicely for me. Maynooth was the north star. The Maynooth service commences at Pearse Station. The service is from Pearse Station, or possibly Grand Canal Dock, to Maynooth. Pearse to Greystones and Pearse to Maynooth is the exact same number of kilometres, yet Pearse to Maynooth passengers can avail of the cheaper fares while Pearse to Greystones passengers cannot. Greystones is the only DART station on the line that does not avail of that service. That is unfair. I made a very good case to Mr. Ryan previously. I know he responded to me on it, but he raised the matter of Maynooth so I just want to-----

I will go back to the answer I gave at that time, which is that we had to pick a centre for the circle somewhere. The centre was O'Connell Bridge, which meant Greystones was outside that circle. I remind everyone that is where the DART ends now. In future, the DART will end in Drogheda. Looking ahead, we could not possibly use the extent of the DART network as the basis of the fares.

I thank Senator Dooley who has given me his time. In its statement, the NTA referenced its responsibility "for the provision of an integrated, accessible public transport system." I always say that affordability has to come into that. Public transport should be integrated, affordable and accessible. I will come back to the integrated piece. The issue of affordability has been raised. I will not say the statement regarding the delay in implementation of the fairer fares strategy was an announcement because, to be fair, it was not an announcement but something we learned of rather casually, which is extremely regrettable. I live in Newbridge, which is in the constituency most impacted, and use the train quite regularly. In fact, I used it this morning. It was a bombshell that was dropped yesterday, when this news spread on social media. There were a number of phone calls, emails, etc., looking for clarity on it from public representatives, who were integrally involved in trying to deliver this. I am sure the NTA will acknowledge all the many meetings we had.

Technical issues that have arisen were referred to. Why were these not factored into the NTA's original timeframes?

As I explained to Deputy O'Rourke, engagement had taken place with Irish Rail, which had engaged with its contractor at that time. That was the timeframe that was considered reasonable at the time. We were happy to then put that in the announcement we made at the time of the fares determination. Since then, there have been further engagements with Irish Rail and its contractor. They have informed us that they are not in a position to meet the timeline we had set out and publicised. Unfortunately, we were in a position where we had to give the timeline that has now been given to us, which is quarter 1 of next year.

That is not a situation we want to be in. We did not introduce the information casually yesterday. It was in response to a parliamentary question. We are obliged, if we are asked a parliamentary question, to respond with the most up-to-date information we have. We could have chosen not to respond to the request for information yesterday so that it would not feature in the discussion we had today, but that is not a position we normally take. We are happy to be here to explain the situation to Deputies. We are not happy to be in this position, but we are happy to give as much information as we currently have regarding the unfortunate timeline that has now been introduced.

We are an authority that makes the decisions on fares based on the funding available to us. We are responsible for the structure of those fares but we do not have the contracts in place for the ticketing equipment used and managed directly by the operators, which has been the case for many years. We put a structure on top of that.

The Leap card integrates the fares system but we do not own the ticketing equipment that the operators use. We are changing that as part of next-generation ticketing in that we will own the ticketing equipment on the bus and will have a much more centralised structure so that we can be held to account much more closely in terms of the delivery of that infrastructure and anything associated with that. When we are at a remove and the only mechanism we have is to encourage our operators to get their contractors to deliver on our behalf, that is not the easiest position to be in when delivering on behalf of the State.

The roll-out of the fairer fares strategy, which is a key element of Government strategy to encourage more people to use public transport, is essentially being stalled. That was a very poor justification for it in my view. Ms Graham mentioned the budget. Was a specific budget allocated to the NTA under budget 2024 to cover the cost of implementing the fairer fares strategy in quarter 3 of this year?

I thank Ms Graham for her response. The planned fares would result in a fare drop of 48% in Newbridge and 35% in Kildare town. If it is not a budgetary issue, what cost reduction can be offered to the commuters I represent who are being failed by the implementation of this plan? I put it to Ms Graham that from 1 September, an equivalent fare reduction should be put in place in those areas that would have been positively affected by this implementation?

We would have to increase fares elsewhere. Bear in mind that this is a revenue-neutral strategy for the Dublin commuter area. The other complication is that many of the fare reductions are dependent on Leap. We come back again to the ticketing equipment and the systems that Irish Rail and Luas contractors need to upgrade and reconfigure. It would not really be possible because the scheme depends on Leap and Leap depends on the ticketing system contractors to reconfigure it in order to implement the changes.

I hear what Mr. Ryan is saying but I genuinely do not accept it. There must be a better way to support the cost of commuting for commuters. We all know that very many commuters bypass the stations in Newbridge and Kildare to go to Sallins where there is a much cheaper fare. The car parks there are beyond capacity so we need this to be put in place.

My next question goes back to integrated public transport. Many people live quite a distance from the stations in Newbridge and Kildare. I am very fortunate to live beside the train station so I find it quite easy to get there but there are many people living in the town who live 3 km away from the train station. There was an expectation that a town bus would be rolled out in both Kildare and Newbridge to enable people to get the train stations so they would not need to have a second car. What progress has been made on this?

I am not sure where that expectation came from because we have indicated to the committee and publicly our programme of town services, which is based on towns with no service. We have a programme we need to deliver. It starts with Portlaoise, Mullingar, Ennis and Letterkenny and we have to work through those service deliveries, subject to the funding and resources being available, before we are in a position to move to any other towns. We never gave any commitment as regards delivery of a town service. Some planning work may have been commenced with the local authority but, at this stage, we could not give any commitments to a town service for Newbridge or Kildare.

A number of towns are ahead of all other towns. We are delighted to be in a position where there is demand for services across the country but we have always wanted to deliver a town service for towns with a population of 10,000 or more. We have a list of those we need to get through before we can consider any others for delivery.

It is served by commuter services. We are talking about towns that are of a size such that they need a town service of their own. We are not saying that Newbridge or Kildare do not need such a service but in terms of our priorities, the other towns I mentioned are the ones that have been identified at this stage. We will work towards delivering, and considering for delivery in the future, any other town services because there are demands across the country for these services but we can only operate, plan for and have the resources to be able to plan for a number of services at any particular time.

I agree with the comments about Irish Rural Link. It is an excellent service that provides a lifeline for many. Could I get an update on the No. 888 service from Athy to Monasterevin to Rathangan and on to Allenwood? I understand it has gone to tender. We are very anxious to see it delivered as soon as possible. Could I get an update on the roll-out of the No. 821 service, which would include Suncroft, which also needs to keep part of the No. 126 service that links into Kildare town?

My next question concerns the fare capping for Dublin commuter zones. It is based on 2.5 journeys. How does this work within outer zones, for example, for people from Newbridge who are travelling to Sallins, Naas or Kildare? It seems to be Dublin-centric rather than looking at the wider commuter area.

There is no fare capping outside Dublin. Within the 90-minute area, or the city zone, as we are now going to call it, we have effectively a flat fare. That really only works in cities. We cannot have a flat fare throughout the country because to have a cap and a flat fare around that cap is just not practical unfortunately.

I ask Mr. Ryan get some clarification on that. I am particularly interested because the Meath bus services are largely covered by the Broadstone depot and we know that part of the challenge with those relates to mechanics in Broadstone. If they are not covered, I would make the case that Bus Éireann should be doing something similar to try to address the shortage.

Members have been saying very positive things about Connecting Ireland, and I echo those. My understanding is that this is a €56 million multi-annual programme and the NTA is working its way through it. I have always been critical that there has been funding of €8 million followed by €8 million, rather than €15 million or €20 million followed by €20 million. What is the timeframe for the full roll-out of the initial Connecting Plan now? Are there plans to go beyond that? Is the NTA in the early stages of looking beyond it to Connecting Ireland 2.0 or something similar?

We had originally planned that it would take about five years to roll out but that was dependent on getting a consistent level of funding. We commenced Connecting Ireland just at the end of Covid, which also had its challenges. Initially, we would have liked to have delivered in a five-year programme. Based on our current run rate, it is probably going to take about six years to roll out the ambition we set out in Connecting Ireland. I do not think it will ever meet all the demands we will see in rural Ireland so I there will be a need for a Connecting Ireland part 2.

We have not commenced that, no. Our focus is on delivering the ambition in the Connecting Ireland programme as well as doing a lot of advancements around the place. It is not that we constrain ourselves to exactly what is in the plan. We may discover links that we were not even aware of and we will try to include those in our Connecting Ireland programme. We are delighted with how it has gone. We would like to deliver it a lot quicker, of course. We are ambitious for Connecting Ireland and for additional service in rural Ireland but it is subject to funding.

To continue on that point before I bring in Deputy O'Connor, I fully concur with Deputy O'Rourke. People in villages and towns tell me they never had a bus before and now they do. In terms of meeting demand, there is also induced demand there as well. As people become more aware, they find there is a bus service in place and it works. The NTA may look at static demand first but then there is induced demand too. Is the NTA able to factor that into the Connecting Ireland 2.0-type longer term planning?

We factored it into phase 1 because we always believed, and knew, that there would be demand that would develop over time. That is why when we put in the services we usually leave them for a year or 18 months before making changes because that is when we really truly see how people are responding. We build in as much of what we think is induced demand but we would probably say we have been surprised at the level of response and how quickly the response has occurred. We would be delighted to do more of that right across Ireland.

It is always good to see NTA representatives at the committee. I thank them for being here. There are a couple of issues that are very important to me. Patrick Mulcahy, who works in my office and is now a councillor, and I have held a lot of meetings and, to be fair, they have fruitful in trying to deliver additional capacity in certain areas. Ms Graham will know the route 260 service has been a very big issue in east Cork. It is very important to Youghal and to some of the rural villages along the N25. Youghal is looking for further morning services. People are using the bus service because it is an affordable way to get to work. It is well used. Youghal is within a 45-minute commute of Cork city when traffic is favourable. We are seeking further assistance around the morning services. I acknowledge the NTA has provided an additional double-decker service but we want to see what more can be done. I am talking about the morning services at 7 a.m., 7.10 a.m. and 7.20 a.m. which terminate in Midleton and the 8.10 a.m. and 10 a.m. services from Youghal. All those services need additional capacity. My constituency office in the town, which is a short walk up from the bus stop, gets many calls from people complaining about not being able to access services at appropriate times in the morning. There is demand on that route. Can the NTA help me and my office to deliver for our constituency and the town of Youghal with extra services?

I appreciate that. There is an issue of a PSO service and also the commercial route 40 service provided by Expressway. The more the merrier is my view of the matter.

I wish to raise something that is important to me. Looking at east Cork commuters, whether they live in Youghal, Midleton or any of the dozens rural villages in my constituency - I will not name them all - much of that traffic goes from east Cork under the Jack Lynch tunnel and on down to Mahon and Ringaskiddy where Pfizer and various pharmaceutical companies are located. Employees of these companies and of Cork University Hospital and Munster Technological University travel through the Jack Lynch tunnel from east Cork to their destinations without going into Cork city centre. It might be to Douglas where there are lots of industrial parks. Will the NTA do a demand analysis on providing increased bus services for people living in Midleton, Youghal, Carrigtwohill, Glantane and other places to see if we can do a proper job and provide bus services through the Jack Lynch tunnel connecting to Mahon, Ringaskiddy, Douglas and other employment hubs in that area? There are huge numbers travelling to and from those places daily. The pressure point is the famous Dunkettle interchange. That is where the biggest issue has been. Could the NTA look at trying to deliver that?

I will check with Mr. Creegan whether that was done as part of the Cork metropolitan area transport strategy, CMATS. It is something we would have to look at. Obviously, as the Deputy knows, we cannot deliver bus services from every place to every place, as it were. Often we look at centres so we bring people to centres. It may be the case that this could be done as a park and ride with additional services. It is something we can look at because we do want to serve commuters, whether by rail or bus. Another option is an integrated rail and bus service, certainly for Midleton. We can look at that in more detail.

That would be very welcome. This would take tens of thousands of cars off the road. The journeys are very significant.

If we look at the traffic numbers in Dunkettle or on the southbound or northbound lanes in the Jack Lynch tunnel in the evening and morning, we will very quickly see precisely what I am getting at. I appreciate the point about designing the demand around centres but Cork bucks the trend. Historically, the population of the urban core of Cork decreased, but it rose significantly in the commuter towns around the city, such as Midleton and Carrigtwohill, which was the fastest growing village, now town, in Ireland. New towns are planned in Water-rock and major housing developments are going on there. That route is getting busier and busier and the traffic is getting worse and worse but nothing is servicing that connection under the tunnel from east Cork, even though a huge proportion of that commuter traffic is using it.

If I might be critical of one thing, I acknowledge it is hard to serve everybody but Bus Éireann held an information night in the Metropole on Tuesday night and, as part of that, representation from my office attended. None of the presentation related to Cork county. It was all focused on the city. I am anxious to get cars off the road where it is possible and where we can put in a proactive service that people will use. As I said earlier, the witnesses are all an example of this. If a bus service is put on in the morning, people will use it and it will be full. We want to try to get that addressed.

We need to see a better Local Link service as well. The villages I am thinking of in particular are Lady's Bridge, Ballymacoda and Cloyne, which have very limited bus services. Lady's Bridge village has one bus that leaves at 10.15 a.m. but there is no return bus unless you come back on the 260 coming into Castlemartyr. I would appreciate if those villages could be looked at in the context of Local Link service. The report I have is good. When the services are introduced in east Cork, we use them. They are a little pricey but we use them. We do need to get the additional capacity in Youghal.

My other ask is that we would please look at putting in a proper service that will connect Ringaskiddy, with all its pharmaceutical plants and the Port of Cork, to Mahon and the Carrigtwohill, Midleton and Youghal urban core. If we do that, we will remove thousands of car journeys from those roads every day. If a morning and evening service leaves early enough, that will help a lot of the people who work shifts in pharmaceuticals. Cork has one of the largest pharmaceutical hubs not only in Ireland but in the world and there is huge demand. Tens of thousands of people work in pharmaceuticals in Cork alone, between that Little Island down to the Ringaskiddy belt, but bus services are just non-existent going out of the tunnel. The consequences of that are congestion, increased numbers of cars and having to spend €260 million on the Dunkettle interchange. I think the public would appreciate an option in that regard. Younger people, in particular, who are moving into the new houses we are building in east Cork, where thousands of new homes are being built, would like to be able to live without the expense of a car. A car is a necessity in Cork, however, because if you are travelling to Ringaskiddy or to the tech employers in the south ring road, there is no proper bus connection unless you go into the city and out again, which would add an unnecessary 20 or 30 minutes to your commute. I would appreciate it if the witnesses could look into that.

We have spoken about the Local Link service. Is there potentially any option to have some sort of GPS on a bus such that somebody could use an app to know where the service is? The 183, for example, is a fantastic service but it is on a very long route and can fall behind. Is that something the NTA would look at?

We have a contract now to provide what we are calling next-generation AVL, or the automatic vehicle location system on the bus. We will start with our main bus services, as in those provided by those Dublin Bus, Go-Ahead and Bus Éireann, but we have a module in there of what we are calling AVL light, which can be attached to the ticketing system on the Local Link bus services. That will give a signal and enable us to track where the bus is and to then give real-time information. It is definitely something we want to deliver. We have it included within that contract that we can deliver it, but it will just take some time and will be later in that contract delivery.

The commencement date will be in either September or November and we are still in discussions with Dublin Bus and Go-Ahead because we need to speak to both of them about what that date might be. We are hoping it will be September and that we can go early with those ones for Bray, in particular, and Greystones for phase 6A, with the spine element of phase 6A turning up later, but we are not yet 100% sure whether we can do that. We are still in discussions with Go-Ahead on that.

I think we have had about five or six Local Link services into Wicklow over recent years, which is very positive, but there is one missing link, which relates to Laragh and Annamoe, through Roundwood, into Bray train station. A private operator operates on that route. It is a well-established service that has served people well, but a Local Link service would suit that commuting type of growth we are seeing in places such as Roundwood. Is this something that is on the NTA's horizon to deliver? I understand the challenges relating to budgets, drivers, fleet availability and so on but is it something the authority is considering for introduction?

The private operator has been operating there for a long time. It does not, in my view, provide a commuting option. It is very much a St. Stephen's Green to Glendalough-type service, so it was intended more to serve perhaps visitors or tourists. As the witnesses well know, however, Local Link services can provide that link into Bray train station for people working in the city or who need to pick up a rail or bus connection. That private operator service runs only twice a day and I do not think the fares are in any way comparable with what is available on a Local Link service, so I do not think it is right to compare the two. It is a bus service but it is not comparable.

Yes, it is not that it is comparable, but when we introduce PSO services on top of a commercial service, even if it is at a different time, that could have an impact on that commercial service. It is something we need to be mindful of as we plan those services. I am aware the service planning team know about the issues and are looking to see how they can best serve that corridor without undermining the existing commercial service too much.

I thank the witnesses for their engagement. I have previously raised an issue with some bus services in Meath, which I will again put on record. There is a regular call in Ratoath for a more regular direct service into the city - the 105X is the example – and for a direct service via the M3 parkway for people who might want to use the train. I will continue to make the case for those.

In respect of the 103 route, a number of people have been affected by the decision of Bus Éireann to terminate not on the south side of the city in Townsend Street, although it used to go all the way to St. Stephen’s Green, but rather in O'Connell Street. Why did that happen? We hear from Bus Éireann that it was a time-saving measure but I think that needs to be reviewed because a number of people have been affected, especially students and workers.

More broadly, on bus services in Meath, a number of high-frequency public bus services are very well used and people who rely on the services tend to be frustrated with them because they organise their lives around them and are impacted by the issues we have.

That particularly includes the shortage of mechanics at Broadstone. Hopefully that is resolved soon and we can get back to full capacity, because Bus Éireann has outsourced some of its services, so we end up with coaches where double deckers are needed and that has an impact. Eventually, my question on the matter of ensuring punctuality is this. These services are largely on the N2 or old N2 route or the M3 or old N3 route. Are there quality bus corridors? Are they part of BusConnects? You can get caught at Phibsborough or the Halfway House on the N3. Will they be resolved? What is the timeline for those? Are they factored into the Dublin BusConnects programme?

The answer is "Yes". There is a scheme under BusConnects. One of the 12 corridors we mention is Blanchardstown to the city centre. That commences at Blanchardstown Shopping Centre and provides bus lanes in both directions right into the city centre. We also have planning consent for the Finglas corridor. That would have more or less continuous bus corridors from Finglas village, through Hart's Corner and to the quays. Both of those are part of the BusConnects programme.

That is grand. The next question is definitely within the NTA's remit. It relates to bus transport. Dublin Airport is in discourse because of the passenger cap, all the constraints it has trying to get people in and out of Ireland, and the cap on flights. There was an announcement yesterday about trying to incentivise airlines to move flights to Cork. We feel disadvantaged in Clare because the public bus services to Cork Airport and Dublin Airport are far superior to those that serve Shannon. The 51 route starts from Cork, stops at Mallow, Ballyhay, Charleville, Limerick, Clarecastle, Ennis, Crusheen, and others. There are about 14 stops on that route and then Shannon Airport. If you are in Cork, the current format is a very unattractive service to Shannon Airport. There is no express. This is very much the stagecoach that stops at every village on the way.

In contrast, the 51X service is a service from Limerick city, stopping in Shannon Airport and then to Galway. The service from Limerick to Shannon and Galway is far superior. We are lacking Cork connectivity. If we are to have a counterbalance in aviation in Ireland, we certainly need an improved bus service. At the moment, the Dublin Airport position of dominance is close to 90% of the market. Aviation is a whole different realm, of course, but certainly the transport links could be improved, and Shannon is the poor relation. It galls me when I see an express service to Dublin Airport parked in Bunratty, which is only 4 km from Shannon Airport. It seems incongruent with where services should be.

Many of the services that serve airports across the country are commercial services that are licensed by the authority. There is probably a view that the subsidised services which serve the airport are not sufficient in Dublin as well as Cork and Shannon. There is a requirement from our side to improve the services to all the airports. Generally, the airport-type traffic from city centres to the airport are provided by commercial services because they can see business in doing that.

Commercial services to the airport are generally intercity, longer distance, limited stop or express services. The services that we deal with for airports tend to be city services that stop at many locations along the way to their destination. They are a different creature. We do not tend to subsidise longer-distance express-type services, generally.

My next question relates to multimodal transport. Our rail and bus stations are quite well configured for transport at the moment but there are still certain inadequacies relating to car parking, e-bikes and short-term rental bikes. Much more could be done. For example, when you arrive at Heuston Station in Dublin city, there is not always a fleet of bikes at the nearby station. I came on the 7.40 a.m. train this morning and cycled to the Dáil. I drive from home to Limerick station, take the train and then the bike at the other end. I see many people do that each day. It does not all fall into place seamlessly if there are not bikes. The e-bikes were withdrawn around two years ago. There was some malfunction with the e-device. If it is to be truly multimodal and easy for the passenger or commuter, all the cogs of that have to work. Parking is also lacking at some stations. The new rail and bus station in Limerick is fabulous and things are really improved, but parking has been reduced. I know in the sustainable eyes of the NTA, maybe the car is the enemy to some degree, but if someone is going to make the effort to drive to a station then take the train, that should be encouraged. There should be plenty of car parking there.

I recently met Ms Graham's officials regarding the prospects of an increased bus service to Meelick, my home village in County Clare. That meeting happened with Councillor Rachel Hartigan and me. We want to see some action on that. There will be a report coming back to us in August. To explain our situation, we are a County Clare village about 4 km from Limerick city. All around us are incredible bus services, including the 303 service to Moyross every 15 minutes, the Caherdavin bus service every 20 minutes, and the Westbury service every 30 minutes. We have one bus in and one bus out each day. It is not good enough for a village that is just beside a city. I am raising a localised issue. Ms Graham's officials have looked at it. We have given them maps. I would love if she could, in her leadership role, drive this on a little and maybe give the people of Meelick a favourable response next month. I thank Ms Graham. I sense she is going to announce something. She was smiling there.

I thank the Chair. It is kind of him to give me a few minutes. I say hi to the witnesses. It is my first time to be at a meeting with them. I am not a member of the committee but as an Oireachtas Member, I can be here. It is important to say that we are making real progress on transport throughout the country. I welcome the commitment, work, and ongoing discussions and negotiations the NTA has with Oireachtas Members and communities in general, but as the witnesses all know, we have a long way to go. Being a little parochial, the NTA introduced a good link between Roscommon and Longford, which I am glad to report is being widely used.

Of course it stops in the village of Ballyleague-Lanesborough where the Shannon divides Longford and Roscommon. The service is outstanding. Just off that road there is a village which was developed by Bord na Móna called Cloontuskert. There were 76 houses and there are now about 100. It is less than a kilometre from the village of Ballyleague. It would be lovely, and again we cannot take in every corner of an area and I understand this, to be able to establish a link with a village such as this. Perhaps asking that buses go off the main route to go down there is not on but perhaps we could have a support link to the village. We are dealing with some elderly people and younger families who do not have transport. It would be something to look at if we could have a model for it. Perhaps I will write to the NTA with some ideas I have.

The creation and expansion of Local Link is very important to rural areas. I live in the Strokestown area of Roscommon. It is a well-known town and Scramogue is in its rural area. The Local Link bus there is very important to bring people from A, B, C and D. The problem, and I appreciate it is not easy to solve, is that it is not able to reach some people. Some of these are people with disabilities, elderly people and people with no car transport. The problem is difficult to solve and I wonder whether it is something the NTA looks at and discusses. I know the NTA is well aware of it but I cannot stress enough the importance of Irish Rural Link to people in rural areas. If we want to reduce the amount of time people spend in cars, and we are all doing this from an environmental perspective as the witnesses are aware, we have to have the back-up services such as buses.

Some of the buses providing the service need to be upgraded in terms of carrying people with disabilities. I am involved in social services in my area. Sometimes when elderly people are going out for a day we have to try to accommodate three wheelchairs. There is no proper facility on some of the buses to put the wheelchairs to one side. This means that not everyone can go and this is a pity when everyone is enthusiastic about going on a day out. I understand the cost of the modern buses but we have to introduce them and make sure they are people friendly. I accept there is an enormous cost involved but I would like to see it being improved. There is a company in Dublin that specialises in this. The buses are available but they are quite expensive.

I commend the work of the NTA. We all come to it with a list. I would also like to speak about train services but I will not do so today.

We are very much aware that even with all we propose in the Connecting Ireland programme, we estimate there is a population of almost 750,000 people in Ireland who will not be served by the regular rural services we offer. It would be very inefficient to try to serve them with the type of service we are speaking about. It is challenging to deliver a service to the likes of the village mentioned by Senator Murphy, which is less than 1 km away from the main service. Diverting off the main road will discommode other passengers. Sometimes it is very challenging to get the balance between serving smaller villages that are off the main run.

We have a number of demand-responsive services, which operate through the Local Link offices throughout the country. We have not seen growth in these services. Earlier we spoke about phase 2 of Connecting Ireland and what we do afterwards. Part of the phase 2 delivery will be looking to see how we can improve the demand-responsive side of the service, where there is a more dispersed population that can be served by a bus that will collect from the door. This would serve those with mobility issues, and either bring people to a local town from where they can travel onwards on the regular service or bring them close to the regular service at a good stopping location. This is something for the future development of Connecting Ireland. We are very much aware we are not able to reach everybody through the programme under way at present and that more work has to be done.

Accessibility of these services is very challenging. I am very much aware that it is challenging enough to get the type of accessibility we want for one wheelchair user but removing seats to be able to provide for three wheelchairs is challenging. Ensuring they have the statutory restraints can also be challenging. When these spaces are not being used we want to have as many seats available as possible for those who may not be wheelchair users but might have mobility issues and need to be seated. It is a challenge and one that we will always look at so that at least maybe a type of bus that facilitates multiple wheelchair users is available in a particular locality, not necessarily for every service but which can be provided by an operator when we are aware such a service is needed. It will be a refinement of the services we operate at present.

I thank Ms Graham, Mr. Creegan and Mr. Ryan for their attendance today. The investment in transport in recent years creates further difficulties and expectations and puts further strain on the system. For me these are positive problems rather than negative problems. We have all been around long enough to have seen major cutbacks in public transport. We are now going the other way. I pass on our appreciation of the work done by the staff of the NTA as well as all of the public transport service providers day in, day out, at weekends and through night work. I thank the witnesses for their time.