Select Committee on Transport and Communications debate -
Wednesday, 26 Jun 2024

The purpose of today's meeting is to consider programme D of the 2024 Further Revised Estimate for Vote 29 - Environment, Climate and Communications. I remind members that the committee has no role in approving the Estimate. It is an ongoing opportunity for the committee to examine departmental expenditure, to make the process more transparent and to engage in a meaningful way on relevant performance issues. I thank the Department for the briefing note provided. I welcome the Minister, Deputy Eamon Ryan, and his officials to the meeting today. On a personal note, I wish the Minister the very best. This is my first time meeting him in a public forum since he announced that he will be stepping back as party leader. All of us on this committee wish him the very best and thank him for all of his engagement. We hope that engagement will continue but the committee wanted to recognise his decision.

I will read a note on privilege for everyone. All witnesses are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice that they should not criticise or make charges against any person or entity by name or in such a way as to make him, her or it identifiable or otherwise engage in speech that might be regarded as damaging to the good name of a person or entity. Therefore, if their statements are potentially defamatory in relation to an identifiable person or entity, they will be directed to discontinue their remarks. It is imperative they comply with any such direction.

Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official either by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable. For the information of anyone watching this meeting, Oireachtas Members and witnesses now have the option of being physically present in the committee room or of joining the committee remotely via MS Teams. I remind members of the constitutional requirement that they must be physically present within the confines of the Leinster House complex to participate in public meetings. I will not permit a member to participate where he or she is not adhering to this constitutional requirement. Any member who attempts to participate from outside of the precincts will be asked to leave the meeting. In this regard, I ask any members participating via MS Teams to confirm that they are on the grounds of the Leinster House campus prior to making their contribution to the meeting.

With the formalities out of the way, I invite the Minister, Deputy Eamon Ryan, to make his opening statement.

I thank the Cathaoirleach Gníomhach very much for the opportunity to present the 2024 Further Revised Estimate for the connectivity and communications delivery programme of the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications. This Further Revised Estimate was required due to the recent transfer of marine planning-related functions to my Department from the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage. The 2024 Estimates in respect of the other programme areas within my Department, those relating to climate action, energy transformation and circular economy development, were considered by the Select Committee on Environment and Climate Action at its session yesterday, 25 June.

The aim of this programme is to deliver world class connectivity and communications. To achieve this, an allocation of just over €409 million is being provided under programme D for 2024. This total comprises €30.5 million in current expenditure and €378.9 million in capital expenditure. The funding aims to provide for the development of a secure digital communications and services infrastructure that will contribute to the further growth of the economy. Key measures supported include the national broadband plan, Ireland’s National Cyber Security Centre, the national Eircode system, supporting a sustainable nationwide post office network, the Digital Hub Development Agency, the National Digital Research Centre and the establishment and implementation of a national public warning system.

The national broadband plan continues to receive the largest capital allocation within this programme with €343.5 million ring-fenced to progress work under the plan during 2024. This year’s allocation, which is an increase of €63.9 million over the 2023 allocation of €279.6 million, is an indication of the Government’s commitment to continuing the roll-out of our national high-speed broadband network. Up to 31 May this year, more than 254,900 premises have been passed across all counties and more than 83,500 premises have been connected. Premises located throughout the country can now connect to the high-speed fibre network, meaning an increasing number of homes and businesses nationwide can order and pre-order through local broadband service providers. Due to the increased funding allocated this year, National Broadband Ireland expects to have passed over 300,000 premises by the end of 2024. This represents over 50% of the roll-out in the intervention area.

During 2024, National Broadband Ireland will commence survey and design activity on the following islands off the coasts of Donegal and Galway: Tory, Arranmore, Inishmore, Inisheer, Inis Méain and Inishboffin. The Black Valley in County Kerry, the last place in the country to be connected to the electricity grid in 1976, is not being left behind by the national broadband plan and will also be provided with high-speed fibre broadband in 2024. The Government is on course to achieve its objective, which is that, by 2028, investment under the national broadband plan supplemented by further investment by commercial operators will mean that access to gigabit broadband is possible for every premises in Ireland.

Just under €11 million has been ring-fenced in my Department’s Estimate to fund the operational costs of the National Cyber Security Centre for 2024. The National Cyber Security Centre is the lead Government agency for cybersecurity in the State. The main goal of the National Cyber Security Centre is to actively detect, disrupt and defeat cyberthreats targeting critical infrastructure and critical networks, including Government networks. Since the 2021 capacity review of the National Cyber Security Centre, there has been significant progress in increasing the capabilities and resources of the centre. Staffing has increased from 25 in 2021 to 55 at the end of 2023 and it is expected that staffing levels will reach 75 by the end of 2024. The budget allocation for 2024 will support a range of measures including the implementation of the network and information systems 2, NIS2, directive and delivery of phase 2 of the National Cyber Security Strategy 2019-2024 following its mid-term review.

The 2024 Estimate also includes an allocation of €10 million in respect of continued support for the post office network. This is the second year of a three-year commitment under the programme for Government to provide €10 million per annum from 2023 to 2025 to provide for a sustainable post office network as a key component of the economic and social infrastructure throughout Ireland. Some €4.5 million is allocated in 2024 to facilitate payment of fines imposed by the EU Court of Justice judgment in respect of Ireland’s failure to transpose the European electronic communications code directive in time and failure to notify the Commission of the transposition.

In 2024, €4 million each is being provided for Eircode and EuroQCI projects. The Eircode allocation will provide for a number of key activities including the operation of the postcode management licence holder contract and external expertise to support the Department in assessing options for the long-term strategic delivery of Eircode post 2026 and a data impact protection assessment. The allocation of €4 million for the QCI project is to fund a joint project between my Department and the EU to build a national quantum communication infrastructure for Ireland as part of Digital Europe’s EuroQCI, an EU-wide quantum communications infrastructure programme. The goal is to secure critical infrastructure against the threat of cybersecurity attacks by making use of advances in quantum computing power.

Funding of nearly €3.6 million is allocated for the Digital Hub Development Agency and €3.5 million for the National Digital Research Centre. In addition, just under €3 million is allocated to progress work on a national cell broadcast public warning system. When in place, this system will provide information to the public on developments in the event of a major emergency or disaster which pose a significant and imminent threat to human life, property or the environment.

I am happy to take any questions relating to the 2024 Estimate of expenditure for the connectivity and communications delivery programme.

I believe we have seen real success and progress in the area of communications. The investment by Eir and other operators like SIRO, Liberty Global and Virgin Media is very significant. That competition has delivered for the Irish people, particularly the universal aspect of that given that the national broadband plan is covering areas that would not otherwise be reached. The investment by Eir is not insignificant.

The role of ComReg is critical in maintaining a competitive market and ensuring standards are reached in terms of universal service obligations or the technology provided being used appropriately. ComReg is in the process of scaling up quite significantly. It would need a lot of additional resources to complement its role in the NIS directive. That will see it having to significantly expand its operations. That process is ongoing in terms of getting additional staff - an agreed head count. I do not believe there is any desire on the part of the Department or Government to restrict ComReg in that. We realise that it is very important to have a well-funded and well-resourced regulator. Much of ComReg's regulatory costs in this area come from the industry itself so it is not an immediate burden on the State. The industry recognises that having a well-resourced regulator is in its interest as well because you get quick decisions and good consultation. We do need to expand ComReg and make sure it has additional staff. We are in the process of helping it deliver that.

The Minister is correct in saying that competition can deliver good outcomes. However, there are still a lot of people who have been left behind, not just in rural areas but also in our towns, especially whole housing estates that do not have ducted access. They are being left behind by all the providers. There are towns where perhaps delivery has been provided to 70% of the houses but 20% have been left behind because providers have to dig up driveways and foothpaths to get access to them and they are not prepared to do that. Nobody does it and they walk away. There is great frustration about that. This is not just found it rural areas. It is found in urban areas as well. There needs to be a rethink in respect of that. I would like to hear the Minister's comments about how that contract can be re-orientated to ensure the main providers do not walk away from major towns and leave large sections of them behind because ducting is not in place for them.

The Minister's comments about ComReg and the level of work it will have as it expands and extends are correct. One difficulty that may arise is resourcing and finding the level of competent people for these roles.

What the Deputy said is true. Some of the most significant connectivity issues are in cities. Many estates in south Dublin that might have been built in the 1980s do not have the ducting. It can be difficult to roll out high-speed gigabit broadband in these estates. The Department and ComReg are looking at working with local authorities to facilitate support for that specific problem and, in doing so, make it commercially viable to roll out high-speed broadband everywhere. It is nowhere near as significant an intervention as the national broadband plan - the very definition of urban areas is houses close together - but we believe that overcoming that immediate access issue in those estates will close those gaps. With that done, pretty much the entire country will have access to very high speed broadband. This is a vital project that is probably next up to be delivered by the State.

The point the Deputy makes is a good one. It is not just in the National Cyber Security Centre. It also involves those bodies that will have the responsibility for overseeing the NIS directive. Many people will be looking in the same pool of talent. There is a very significant private sector in our country with an interest in cybersecurity so it is a competitive market for a relatively limited pool of talent. We have grown the National Cyber Security Centre significantly. It has increased dramatically in recent years and we do not see any reason we should not get to 75 by the end of this year. The actual test of it might be whether we have been able to scale up the agency in the past two years since that major attack on our health system and the answer is we have been able to. Many people look to work in the likes of the National Cyber Security Centre because experience in such a high-level working environment and an agency with such a strong reputation internationally as well as here at home is a really attractive thing to have on one's CV. Many people working in the private sector would consider a position within the National Cyber Security Centre. Even though it might not be as well paid as some of the private sector jobs, it brings real gravitas to someone's CV and, as a result of that, we will be able to recruit people.

That is already the case. Going back to the major attack on the HSE, there was very significant use of consultancy and international agencies to support us. You do not just rely on in-house resources. The skill involved in running the National Cyber Security Centre involves being able to have safe access to data and analysis from other agencies, so the answer to the Deputy's question is "Yes".

Regarding international co-operation around that, which is probably key to the effective ring-fencing of the security elements of it, is the Minister satisfied he is getting enough traction there and that there is enough co-operation not just across Europe but globally? Many of these actors are well outside the countries we would consider to have democratic norms?

Yes. It goes both ways. We also feed our data in and share information so we are not just relying on other agencies to provide expertise. We can also feed back. We have very explicitly scaled up that sharing of data and information as a security priority. The Commission on the Defence Forces report and others recognised cyber as one of our most important security issues. The Defence Forces also have real capability in the area so we must liaise and ensure we dovetail with them.

From my experience of both how we manage some of the recent attacks and what our reputation is internationally, I think we are seen as being effective in sharing that data.

There were, and I am trying to remember how even a few weeks ago, there was a significant attack on some of the Government networks - during the local and European elections, as I recall. It was mostly commercial, it would seem, and similar to what we saw in the attack on the HSE or the Munster Technological University about a year or two ago, if members recall. A lot of it is still ransom attacks and the use of malware to look for extortion. There are ongoing attacks on a daily or weekly basis so that is why we need the National Cyber Security Centre to be so well-resourced and vigilant.

I thank the Minister for his opening statement. I want to revisit that issue of the connectivity blackspots and those hard-to-connect areas. I know there was a suggestion that we will end up - and to a large degree, it is related to the success of the roll-out of the national broadband plan, which we hope continues apace - having better services available in more rural parts and uptake will be what uptake will be. However, in many urban areas, you will have poorer-quality service and then you are in that conundrum of the commercial viability of connecting and improving.

One of the suggestions was that those areas that do not have good connectivity at the minute would be bundled together and auctioned in a Dutch auction. Is that something the Minister has considered or what are the options on the table? I think the idea that we are some years away and this stuff takes years to get addressed will be a concern for many people. You can see, in a relatively short period of time, where the roll-out of the national broadband plan brings lots of people up to a standard and there is a risk with regard to the providers - whether it be Eir, SIRO or whoever it is - and the commercial viability is not there from their end, while folks either already have or maintain a poor service, or else do not have a connection at all where there are new developments. I wonder what options are on the table and being considered, and if there is any prospect that it could move more apace. This stuff needs to be ubiquitous and it is hugely important for people, as we all know.

I think we should look at it, and I would not rule out that option of aggregating a number of different projects. It tends to be estate-specific and site-specific so how exactly you might do that might be slightly difficult. However, I would not rule that out.

I agree with the Deputy. This is not anything like the scale of the national broadband plan. It tends to be very specific estates for a certain period in certain locations. It is a much more limited engineering challenge. However, it is really important that we have broad, fair access for everyone, and I will look at that or ask the Minister of State, Deputy Ossian Smyth, who has responsibility, to look at that specific proposal as to whether we could aggregate some of the interventions.

I thank the Minister. On the connections, it is always a kind of headline figure and people are generally surprised by it. I do not have it here but he had it in his opening statement, that is, the significant number of properties passed, in the tens of thousands, and the number connected. What we hear - and I think it is understandable and logical - is that people are in contracts, and they are maybe waiting to get out of their contract before they switch on to the better technology. My question is: is the Minister satisfied that the rate of connection is in line with what is expected? Is there a penalty and is the State subsidising if there is a lower level of connection, or is there a guaranteed income in terms of NBI's income? Is it dependent on a certain amount of connections or is that built into the contract anyway?

It is built into the contract and in a sense, success here benefits everyone. It is successful in the volume of connections and the increase of revenue to NBI and, obviously, the householders themselves. It also reduces the overall cost of the programme.

My understanding is that the level of connections has actually exceeded what was expected. I understand the question the Deputy asked is, if we have already passed 254,000 but only 80,000 are connected, what is with the other 160,000 or so? That, by industry standards, has been a very good uptake. It is probably higher than what was expected in the original business plans. It is up to 40%, and we do expect it to get up to 100,000 by the end of the year, out of some 300,000 passed premises. It really is working well. If anything, what we may have to do is look for further funding to accelerate it further and to be able to more quickly deliver.

I take the point, and it is the reason I asked the question because I think there are explanations why people do not connect. I take the Minister's point with regard to the industry and that it is a greater uptake than it intended. Is it the case that we expect it to be towards 100,000? Are we then subsidising NBI for the shortfall or does that come into it at all? Say, for example, the target was to have 100,000 connected and we have got 83,000. Are we subsidising it, or does that come into it? It is paid for passing the-----

Okay. I thank the Minister. I have a final question with regard to the public warning system, which is subhead D7. What is the progress on that and the timeline? I think it is something people will have an interest in and it will be important. I see the briefing note has something of an update. I wonder is there more detail on when we might expect this scheme to be up and running, tested and widely available to people?

With regard to more detail on the project, a request for tender was published on 26 April of this year, with a tender deadline of 12 June last. A number of compliance submissions were received so the evaluation committee is due to meet shortly. We expect the contract to be in place in early September, and by December of this year, we will see the implementation of the project plan by external advisors with recommendations to the Minister on decisions required for project implementation, and a strategy for industry engagement signed off on. With all that happening on time, it is expected that the system will be operational by December of next year, subject to the procurement timelines.

I wish the Minister a good afternoon and I thank him for coming in. My questions are broadly covered at this stage but I have a few points. On subhead D3, national broadband, it would be really good to get some breakdown on the figures the Minister provided which state that NBI hopes to get to just over 50% by the end of the year. I think the Minister mentioned 300,000. I assume that leaves in and around 250,000 - or thereabouts - homes and businesses across the State that are not yet connected. Could the Minister give us an indication, based on the rate at which homes and businesses across the State have been able to connect already, as to how many more years it will take approximately before the overall project is complete?

On subhead D6, the NCSC, my question was going to be about the recruitment, which I think Deputy Kenny covered, to be fair, and whether we would be successful in being able to hit the necessary targets with respect to resource management and expertise.

Perhaps we can come back to the situation with the contractor at a later stage.

I do not mean to be flippant about the emergency alert system, subhead D7, but are we talking about the kind of thing we see in the movies whereby everybody gets a text message to tell them something is going on during a national crisis? Is that the sort of idea behind this project?

The Minister made reference to quantum communications. Perhaps he could give a little more information as to what that is. He will have to forgive me but I am not familiar with the term.

The national broadband plan was originally scheduled to be completed by January 2027. We were delayed by Covid-19 in 2021 and could not get contractors in. The project was delayed but we are now back on track for that finishing date. Going back to what I said earlier, we are looking at whether we can get further budget provision to deliver earlier. That is on track; in fact, it is absolutely flying at the moment. That may allow us to complete it sooner than was originally expected.

The Deputy asked about the emergency alert system and quantum communications. I have to admit that I am not a real techie. We already have a system whereby an SMS message can be sent but this would allow an alert to show on every phone in certain circumstances. For instance, if there was a major ail pollution or other incident, we would be able to get a message delivered to every phone.

That is exactly the case. It is a system-wide message. There is a subtle difference there.

With regard to quantum computing and the risk for cybersecurity, I suppose this is part of counter cyber risk work, working with our European colleagues, to ensure we have the most advanced quantum computing assisting us in protecting the networks. It can also be used as a way of attacking by using the raw brute power of quantum computing to provide faster data processing, which increases the risk of cyberattack. There is a research project to try to counter that threat.

I will come in next. I thank the Minister for his presentation. I have a few questions, but not too many, to put to him. It is obvious with respect to the national broadband plan that enormous progress is being made. I congratulate the Minister and the Department, as well as all of the work crews. Every day I move around my constituency and see National Broadband Ireland vans or contractors on its behalf doing incredible work that is difficult at times. That must be acknowledged.

Will the Minister offer a comment on cellular reception for mobile phones? Some corners of the country are still the poor relations. In my county, when you go about six miles west of Ennis, heading towards Kilrush and Kilkee, coverage drops off and you may as well be in the middle of the Atlantic. While considerable progress is being made in respect of the national broadband service, is there still a strategy to improve the coverage map of Ireland in terms of cellular signal?

It is similar to fixed fibre or broadband connectivity. First and foremost, it is a matter of having a big and competitive market with a number of mobile operators, and we have had that. On the European analysis that shows how we compare to other European countries, one can never be fully satisfied and as the Cathaoirleach Gníomhach said, there are always going to be black spots where coverage is not as fast as we would want. However, by and large, we have seen a competitive market and investment by the likes of Vodafone, Three and others. The real trick is to maintain a competitive and collaborative market. That may sound counterintuitive. It is a difficult investment. In truth, the network companies have not seen as large a slice of the profits as some of the content companies on the networks. Like in many of these areas, the likes of Google, Facebook and others are profiting from these revolutionary networks. The network providers, by comparison, have had a more difficult job maintaining their revenue. We want a competitive market but we also want it to be collaborative so that some of the costs can be reduced by having shared antennae and good spectrum management, as it were. Going back a number of years, the State, in delivering its broadband objectives, has been trying to foster a competitive and collaborative market. ComReg's job is to continue to review that situation and ensure we have both. I accept the Cathaoirleach Gníomhach's point that there are areas where that needs to be enhanced but in general, the quality of coverage on our mobile networks, looking at any European chart, is of a reasonably high standard, particularly given the dispersed and low population density of our country.

I thank the Minister. When he and his Department have high-level engagement on this matter, it is important. There was colossal public debate on this matter approximately 15 years ago when applications for masts and antennae were going in every week. That was a national debate. These days, the industry seems to go back again and again for masts and antennae in urban settings. Stadiums, Garda stations and public buildings sometimes seem to have a couple of dozen antennae on them. The colocation principle is not always adhered to. It is lucrative to put up a tower and sell space to rival companies. That approach makes a lot of money. It is less attractive to go into a rural area that is 20 km from the nearest mast and put up a mast or antenna. That is the reality in some of the west of Ireland. When the Minister meets with the sector at a high level, he might express concern. These masts invariably go through the planning process. The Department is a notifiable body in that regard. The Minister's opinion would be very helpful.

The Cathaoirleach Gníomhach is right. If we think back ten or 15 years, there was contentious public debate and planning applications were being reviewed and restricted. It was a subject of real controversy. That has reduced somewhat. Even four or five years ago with the start of this term in office and the establishment of this Department, there was real concern that the roll-out of the 5G network would be deeply contested but that has not, by and large, been the case. I come back to the fundamental point that as the Cathaoirleach Gníomhach said, we want to minimise the number of networks, antennae and transmission equipment by trying to encourage a collaborative approach. That will keep the public on our side because there will not be so many applications and there will not be a sense of an overbearing presence of telecommunications network infrastructure

I will next ask about eircodes. Would the Minister consider making it mandatory that an eircode is displayed on public buildings? On our farm at home, we decided a few months ago to hang a sign on the door of the shed because the moment you need to know your eircode is when you will forget it in a panic. The local school I taught in before becoming a member of the Dáil has its eircode on display. It should nearly be a requirement. It is easy to do. I see that with some of the numberplate manufacturing companies, of which there are many, you can go online and get an eircode numberplate, if you like, for €10 and affix it. It would be great if the Cabinet or the Minister's Department could lead out a policy to make it mandatory for, at a minimum, public buildings, schools and workplaces. Farms are an example that involve a daily risk. The Garda might state that it represents another risk if every house is identified with an eircode but I think it would be a good progression of eircode policy.

We would have to be careful about applying that to every house. I was involved at the start in the design and implementation of the eircode system. One of the biggest challenges then was with the Data Protection Commissioner, who was Billy Hawkes at the time. He was concerned about each individual house having a readily identifiable address, as it were, for general data protection regulation, GDPR, reasons. There might be concern about having an eircode displayed in a prominent way on every single house.

There are safety benefits, as the Acting Chair said, in having a clearly findable code in public buildings, factories or farms, so that if someone cannot remember it, the emergency services can very quickly find what the code is. There is merit in that. We are looking at reviewing all of it and upgrading the eircode system so that might be something to be considered in that process.

I want to hone in on the public warning system, as others have. I do not have the correct name for the cell broadcast public warning system. I would love to hear more on that. It is a fantastic idea. We are a nation of hypochondriacs as well. Will it be the case that when there is a red weather alert, this will go out onto someone's mobile phone, or will it be something of a greater magnitude? In principle it makes a lot of sense, but months ago, someone in my county got an email from the Minister and the Tánaiste. I could not believe this but it was an issue for the person. It was a hoax of course. It said that as members of Government, they were advising her about a fantastic investment scheme and this woman lost money on it because she believed that the Minister and the Tánaiste encouraged her to do this.

While a lot of people who are tech savvy and are aware of scamming and everything else, there is potential here that while for all the good this national earth system will bring, other text messages might also be flying around. We all get them, including messages that a parcel from An Post did not deliver today, and a €1 customs penalty has been levied because it has not been picked up. We get these messages and many of us know that there is no parcel waiting in customs because we do not have something waiting for delivery from An Post. It is okay and everything is kosher with Revenue.

A lot of us know these messages are hoaxes and we delete them. There needs to be front-footed investment of time and effort on the part of the State to ensure that the bona fides of this system are absolute and it does not get exploited, particularly for vulnerable and older people. We need to ensure this message is not something that can be used and abused by the many hoaxes that we have in this country and beyond. It speaks to cybersecurity as well.

I agree with the Acting Chair. We have be careful. This will only be used in cases of real significant and imminent threat to human life. It will not be used for other kinds of issues, it will be exclusively for a risk to life, property or the environment. The Acting Chair is also right in that there have been those instances. My understanding was they were more on social media, on Twitter or Facebook, rather than on phone messages. I also thought it was mainly the Tánaiste rather than myself had been-----

That is a real issue, and the control systems within the social media companies themselves in terms of their ability to take down that material is also a real issue. That, however, is separate, and in the realm of Coimisiún na Meán and the Data Protection Commission as against ours. We look at the network and telecommunication system rather than the social media sects.

I have two small questions to end. There is a strategy around offshore wind that will see much of the Irish Sea having an offshore wind infrastructure, as well as a similar infrastructure coming westward from Britain. With all this fixed infrastructure in the Irish Sea, has the Minister and his counterpart in the British Government examined the possibility of there being a cellular network at sea as well? We are currently very much reliant on satellite coverage. Some of the larger ships and ferries that go across carry their own cellular tower onboard. For many people and vessels that are at sea every day, however, they do not have sophisticated radios. Some of the radios are old, clapped out and do not have transponders. It would be an opportune time to have a co-operation agreement with our British counterparts to have fixed cellular signal available as people cross that sea, certainly in the shipping lanes. This is especially as the distance between our two nations is so narrow and there is not a huge amount of ground between us. There will be fixed infrastructure to the seabed.

My understanding was that shipping operated using GPS, which has the benefit of a universal capability. There are a number of connections between the offshore Noble and the digital sphere. There are two examples. First, the building of an interconnector with France will allow us to run a fibre-optic cable. Currently, we do not have a fibre-optic cable connection with the continent. We are exclusively with the US and UK. The building of the new interconnector will allow us to have new digital fibre connectivity between France and Ireland, which is a real benefit.

Second, I had a meeting last week with Scottish Government representatives, where I was pushing the proposal to start creating what is known as a digital twin. This would make sure that there is good baseline data as to what is happening in the marine environment. This is very beneficial in respect of planning and deployment of renewable power, because the biggest constraint is environmental constraint. When there is a digital twin remote monitoring system, which records sea life or fisheries citations and so on, it is helpful in the environmental planning. I told the Scottish Government representatives that it would make sense for us to have a twin with Scotland in the context of a common digital recording and digital marine information management system. We can look at whether that extended to cellular networks or the need for it versus a GPS for shipping. The first thing to do is use that Internet of Things sensory system, and that will include cabling, offshore farms and remote sensory systems. That is where we are going to need to make a lot of investment.

That is a smart approach. My next question refers to digital stamps. The national rate for a digital stamp is €2. The national rate for the paper sticky stamp is €1.40. Some say the price discrepancy is because the digital stamp can be tracked, and the sender is notified when it gets delivered. Surely from a sustainability point of view, we should be trying to encourage more usage of the digital version. It is so handy. I know the Minister does not have full say on this, but does he have a view on that price discrepancy? These issues often come up for review. If there is to be convergence, surely it should be a downward convergence for the digital stamp so that we get more uptake on it.

What the Acting Chair has mentioned is not insignificant. If there is a recording of a delivery, that is akin in a way to a registered letter. Registered letters were always significantly more expensive than an ordinary stamp. An Post has a real challenge. The revenue from the mail business continues to fall significantly each year. That has been counterbalanced by an increase in parcel deliveries and so on. How exactly it manages the pricing of the mail system as it continues to decline so that it does not precipitate further loss of revenue is a balancing act. I would be reluctant to put my toe in the water on that, although I would pay the additional 60 cent to know that the letter has landed at the door.

Does Deputy O'Rourke wish to come in again? I have one final question for the Minister, as I do not know if Deputy Farrell is here. The Minister casually mentioned a couple of years ago, and we are not trying to catch him out, a lovely example last year in Switzerland. Swiss postal vans have what is called a crew cab, where it goes around the villages with all the bags of mail in the back. They also have, however, a facility to pick up elderly people to bring them to the shop. It is kind of a second-tier bus service but not as reliable as a scheduled service. It will get up to the house when it gets there, but there is an option of taking a lift with the local postman or postwoman. The Minister gave an example of an experience he had of it and saw how well it worked. Has there ever been consideration of that in Ireland? Again, speaking to those rural communities I have mentioned a few times, it would add a layer of connectivity that they do not currently have. I will not be throwing any more curveballs after that.

That is not a curveball at all. We can forget Switzerland and instead talk about the west coast of County Clare. There was a working example of this in the past around Loop Head. It might have been ten or 15-years ago, where An Post also doubled its service by taking some passengers. I still firmly believe that has real potential. I would argue even more so now, and the Acting Chair will be aware of this while representing a rural constituency, that we have a real issue around hackneys and taxi services in rural Ireland.

It is very difficult to get drivers. We have seen huge improvements with the likes of Local Link and Connecting Ireland services. However, we need to go beyond that. There could be an opportunity for An Post to raise revenues as part of a diversification of income. I am still very interested in that hybrid option. It is particularly suitable for parcel deliveries where vans are covering the country on a regular basis. How to integrate it is very challenging.

We introduced a new innovative hackney scheme in small villages but it did not prove as successful as we had hoped. It was hard to get drivers. That is probably the biggest obstacle at the moment. Therefore, if an existing van and driver are on the road, it would make sense to make the most use of that asset. Both as Minister for Transport and as Minister for communications, I am still very much encouraging the company. We need to see if we can take those examples that existed in Clare as I said, not just in Switzerland, and see if we can bring them back.