COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS debate -
Thursday, 20 Jun 2024

The public business before the committee this afternoon is as follows: minutes of the meeting of 13 June; accounts and financial statements; correspondence; consideration of the draft committee programme; and any other business. The minutes of the meeting of 13 June 2024 have been circulated. Do members wish to raise any matters? No. Are the minutes agreed? Agreed. As usual, they will be published on the committee's webpage.

Two sets of accounts and financial statements were laid between 10 and 14 June. I will ask the Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Seamus McCarthy, to address these before opening discussion to the floor.

Gabhaim buíochas leis an gCathaoirleach. The first were the Irish Horseracing Regulatory Board, IHRB, accounts for 2022, which obviously were the subject of this morning's proceedings. I issued a clear audit opinion. As I outlined this morning, I drew attention to the transfer from the jockey's emergency fund, so I will not go through the note again.

The second were the accounts of Ciste Pinsean Thithe an Oireachtais. They received a clear audit opinion. The accounts were certified on 16 November and they have only recently been laid. We were looking for accounts that had not been laid and it became obvious with this one that there was a delay. My understanding is that an attempt was made to lay the accounts but for some technical reason it bounced back. It was only when we raised the query that they were relaid. The committee may wish to pursue that with the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission but I think that is the explanation.

There is a reference to the related parties to that fund because part of the licence fees that are collected by Horse Racing Ireland, HRI, and transferred to IHRB is payable into these charities funds. The amounts for these various charities are set out in a rate card. We can see the money that comes in from HRI that is going to these charities and we can audit the calculation of the amount that is payable into the charity funds. We do not, however, audit the charities and we do not get their normal financial statements. At the end of the year, if there are balances owed between the Irish Horseracing Regulatory Board and the charities, that should be recognised as moneys that have yet to be transferred, and that is included in the related parties note.

We could make a recommendation. It is as clear as fog this morning in relation to the Department, IHRB, HRI and where the buck stops. This morning's meeting amplified for me that there is utter confusion. It is not at all clear. There needs to be a recommendation resulting from our meeting that straight lines of accountability are needed.

Obviously, the design of controls where you do have these connected parties or related parties is where we would focus. We have always had a concern about the relationship between IHRB, the Turf Club, the steeplechase committee and these charities. It is very important that there are proper controls in place. I would expect when we see the Mazars report that there may be recommendations around ensuring the controls. The chief executive explained some of the changes the IHRB has made that should prevent a transfer on this scale happening again without it coming to the attention of the chief executive.

If members are satisfied with that, as usual the accounts and financial statements will be published as part of the minutes.

Moving on to correspondence, previously agreed items that are not flagged for discussion at this meeting will be dealt with in accordance with the proposed actions that have been circulated and decisions taken by the committee in relation to correspondence are recorded in the minutes of the committee's meetings and published on the committee's webpage.

There are three items that have been flagged under category B, correspondence from Accounting Officers or Ministers and follow-up to meetings of the committee. The first is No. 2651 from Ms Anne Graham, chief executive of the National Transport Authority. It is dated 10 June and it provides correspondence to the committee in relation to issues raised at the meeting of 2 May. Deputy Murphy flagged this.

That is agreed. The correspondence from the NTA will be noted and published in the committee's minutes and on the webpage.

No. 2656 which is from Mr. Justice Rory McCabe, chairperson of the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission. It provides correspondence to the committee in relation to issues raised at the meeting of 8 February. Deputy Murphy flagged No. 2656.

I raised an issue with regard to this in a priority question earlier, so I will leave it at that.

Okay, if that is agreed, we will publish this on the committee's web page as part of the minutes.

No. 2653 is from Mr. David Maloney, Secretary General of the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform, dated 12 June. It is the minute of the Minister responding to the recommendations made by this committee regarding its engagement with RTÉ. The correspondence provides responses from the Minister for Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sports and Media to each of the recommendations. All 21 recommendations have been accepted, which is very welcome. However, recommendations nine and ten are accepted in principle, subject to GDPR and other legal considerations. That is understandable. The correspondence advises that given RTÉ's statutory independence, it is necessary for RTÉ to respond to the relevant recommendations. The correspondence states that the chair of the RTÉ board will write separately to the committee to set out RTÉ's response to the recommendations. I propose that we note and publish this item of correspondence. Is that agreed? Agreed.

In terms of the 21 recommendations, there was a lot of discussion around them and we did that in a concise manner. The fact they have been accepted is welcome, particularly the one in relation to RTÉ being brought back under the remit of the Comptroller and Auditor General and being accountable to the public accounts committee. They have been fairly widely accepted, including by the Minister, and that is welcome.

RTÉ was to report back to us by June in relation to its progress. The correspondence states that the chair of the RTÉ board, Mr. O'Rourke, will write separately to the committee. As there is only a week or so left in the month, I suggest that we leave it to next week. I am inclined to send him a reminder as I certainly got a verbal commitment since that this would be responded to in full. I have not seen anything come in yet. I would suggest that we write to Mr. O'Rourke and remind him of the fact that we are awaiting the progress report from the board.

A big piece of work was done. It was a big controversy. It is important that this committee as well as the public gets an updated account of what happened here. There is lot to happen yet with RTÉ, including in regard the licence fee. I do not expect to see that happening under this mandate and this side of the general election. It is safe to assume at this stage that it will not happen. This was supposed to happen before the summer. Am I correct in saying that it was promised to happen before the summer?

Often the wording is important. In terms of page 25 and the recommendation on bringing RTÉ back under the remit of the Comptroller and Auditor General, the response is that the Minister for public expenditure is informed by the Minister for Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sports and Media that the recommendation is accepted in principle by Government, noting that such a recommendation has also been made by the expert advisory group commissioned by the Government to review the governance and culture of RTÉ. It goes on to say that the Minister for Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sports and Media further notes that ultimately this matter will require a further Government decision as it relates to an amendment of existing legislation and that, however, the Minister is committed to bringing forward legislative proposals in this regard. It does not have any kind of timeline. It is putting a doubt in there that a further Government decision is required. It is either accepted or it is not. I would have thought that required a degree of urgency and that it had been prompted. I was looking for it a year ago when it came in. Others were seeking the same thing. I would have thought that there would have been a little bit of advance work given how obvious this recommendation was going to be. This will be for the next Government.

Would it be appropriate for us to write to the Taoiseach's office regarding the various statements that were made? The Government accepted this. There were statements in recent months to that effect. Has any preparatory work on legislation been carried out? At what stage is that at? We should do that. What is happening in regard to is just words on paper. Is some action taking place? That is what is important here.

We will write and ask for an update on that. We will note and publish that item of correspondence. Is that agreed? Agreed. That concludes our consideration of correspondence this week.

A draft work programme has been circulated to member. There are two documents regarding the work programme, one of which is displayed on the screen. On 27 June, we are going to engage with the Road Safety Authority, RSA, in relation to the 2022 financial statements in the following areas of interest: road safety statistics and performance metrics, outcome from expenditure in the accounts, vehicle testing, driver testing, issuing driving licences and GDPR issues which arise in the context of providing accident information to local authorities. If there is anything else, please send it to the clerk.

On 4 July, we meet with Waterways Ireland in relation to the 2022 financial statements. It had a big announcement yesterday with the opening of another section of the Ulster Canal. On 11 July, we meet with the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine in relation to Vote 30 - Agriculture, Food and the Marine - and chapter 10 of the Comptroller and Auditor General's annual report and estate management in the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine. When the Department comes in, I suggest we address the issue of the horse racing industry as well. That is important. We should at least flag it with the Department that these issues are going to come up, namely, expenditure on, and practices in, the industry, protecting the integrity of the horse racing industry and general horse welfare.

Is the work programme out to the summer agreed? Agreed.

A draft discussion document on the RTÉ programme has been circulated ahead of the meeting. We can have a look at that. I want people to consider it first. Is that agreed? Agreed. That concludes consideration of the work programme for today.

The last item on the public agenda is any other business. Do members wish to raise any matters? No.