JOINT COMMITTEE ON SOCIAL AND FAMILY AFFAIRS debate -
Wednesday, 28 Apr 2010

I welcome Councillor Padraig Conneely, chairperson of HSE regional forum west, Ms Yvonne O'Reilly, Mr. Liam O'Reilly, Ms Theresa O'Halloran and Ms Mary Britton, all of whom are family members of Irish citizens who died abroad. I will ask Ms O'Reilly to commence her presentation on proposals to amend the Civic Registration Act 2004 to allow the death of an Irish citizen abroad to be registered in this country. Members may then ask questions.

Councillor Conneely is not present in his capacity of an elected councillor but as head of the HSE regional forum west. I draw witnesses' attention to the fact that members of the committee have absolute privilege but the same privilege does not apply to witnesses appearing before the committee. Members are reminded of the long-standing parliamentary practice to the effect that they should not comment on, criticise or make charges against a person outside the Houses or an official by name or in such a way as to make him or her identifiable.

Good morning everybody and thank you for having us here. My name is Yvonne O'Reilly. Next to me is my husband, Mr. Liam O'Reilly, and seated next to him are Ms Theresa O'Halloran and Ms Mary Britton.

Why are we here? We are here today to represent our son, Keith, whom we tragically lost on 18 July 2009. We are also representing all the other Irish citizens who have died outside Ireland and have not been registered in this country. Keith had just completed his third year as a civil engineering student in NUIG. Due to the downturn in the economy, he was unable to secure a college placement, so he returned to Chicago where he had spent the previous summer on a J1 visa. He called it every engineer's dream city.

On 16 July we received the dreaded phone call that every parent fears. Keith had been in a swimming accident and was on life support. We had two days with him, but tragically lost him on 18 July. When we left America, the coroner, Mr. Cooney, gave me a copy of Keith's death certificate and said I would have to register his death at home. Some weeks later, when I gained the strength to register it, I was devastated to learn that I was unable to do so as the death of an Irish citizen outside this country is not recorded here.

We find that very hard to understand and accept, as Keith was an Irish citizen and very proud of his country. He loved rugby and captained the Irish team in Lansdowne Road in 2000, where an Irish birth certificate was required in order for him to do so. He wore the green jersey of Connacht at under-18 and under-20 levels, and dreamed that he would one day represent his country at senior level.

We ask why our son Keith and other proud Irish citizens have been robbed of their identity and discriminated against. We are calling on the Minister for Social and Family Affairs to amend the Civil Registration Act 2004 so that the families of Irish citizens who die abroad can record their deaths at home.

The 2004 Act relates to the registration of births, stillbirths and deaths in the Irish Republic. According to the legislation, all deaths that occur within the State must be recorded and registered appropriately. In general, deaths may only be registered in the State if they occur within its borders.

However, section 39 of the Act provides for some exceptions. Those include: the deaths of members of the Garda Síochána or the Permanent Defence Force while serving outside the State; the deaths of persons on board an Irish aircraft or an Irish ship; the deaths of Irish citizens on board a foreign ship or a foreign aircraft; and the death of an Irish citizen abroad in a state where there is no system of registration.

What that all means is that the vast majority of Irish citizens who die abroad will never have their death recorded or registered in this country.

A growing number of Irish people who travel overseas never come home alive. The grim reality is that in the past three years, almost 600 Irish citizens have died outside this country. In 2009 alone, 244 Irish citizens died abroad. Only four months of this year have gone by, and already the figure is greater than 40.

Death is part of life. It should not be an excuse to stop honouring our citizens and the lives they lived. Being unable to register a person's death in Ireland makes life far more difficult for the grieving family members they leave behind. It is unfinished business, and future generations will find it extremely difficult to find any documentation as there is no record available.

I ask what happens if people do not have all the relevant information in order to go looking for a death certificate, or if it is filled out in a foreign language. An original death certificate is needed, as copies are not acceptable. That involves additional fees and the cost of time. There is also a question over whether Keith's Irish passport would be open to abuse.

When somebody dies abroad, the death is far more distressing because of the complications involved in being away from home and dealing with strangers. People should surely not be penalised for going on holiday or taking advantage of a short-term working visa.

On St. Patrick's Day, together with Keith's friends and fellow students, we launched a Facebook campaign called "Help bring them home" and a petition to amend the 2004 Act. To date, we have over 2,000 fans and 1,500 signatures. We have received support from numerous TDs, including Government Ministers, the Tánaiste, Mary Coughlan, Opposition spokespersons and the leaders of Fine Gael and the Labour Party.

I will read out some of the comments placed on Facebook by friends of Keith and his friend Brian Forde. Brian Forde was a young lad who shared an apartment with Keith last year in Chicago. He was killed one week before Keith in New York. One comment reads, "Please give Keith and those gone before us what is rightfully theirs, registration of death in their own country". Another reads, "Without the registration of all deaths of Irish people our archives will forever remain incomplete". A third comment reads, "They have lost their lives, they don't deserve to lose their heritage", and another, "Cá bhfuil an ceart agus an chóir?"

The Minister for Social and Family Affairs responded on 30 March to a Seanad question on the topic which asked if the Government will amend the Civil Registration Act to facilitate the registration in Ireland of deaths of Irish citizens who have died abroad. He replied, "The number of Irish citizens who are domiciled in Ireland and who die abroad is relatively small in the context of total deaths occurring here in any given year". The number is steadily rising and yet, as far as we can tell, no progress has been made in amending this ridiculous Act.

People might ask why an Irish death certificate is required when the family can legally receive one from the country in which the death occurred. I believe that the loss of my son deserves to be recognised by the country he loved so dearly. His life is as worthy as anybody else's life.

Without a record and registration of Keith's death here in Ireland, it will forever feel as though a piece of him remains stranded across a vast ocean, miles from his family and his home. His future nieces and nephews will find nothing of his passing in any Irish documentation; it will be as if he simply vanished from the face of the earth.

The 2004 Act makes exceptions for men and women in uniform who are serving their country all across this planet. I am asking about the men and women abroad without a uniform, such as our European representatives, and Members of the Oireachtas and of this committee, who travel abroad on a regular basis to serve their country with just as much commitment and passion. Would their loss be any less of a tragedy?

These people are not just statistics: they are sons and daughters, mothers and fathers, and brothers and sisters. They are, most importantly, human beings, whom other human beings loved. I ask members to imagine that it happened to one of their family, or to one of their own children. They would not need to hear a presentation on why this issue is so important.

We are asking the committee for its help, and reaching out with open arms. So far, very few Members have come back on the issue and are willing to commit to fixing the problem. We hope that today will be a turning point in our fight to help to bring our son home.

By amending the 2004 Act, Members will not only help our family and the many other families in our situation. They will unconsciously rise to the challenge of assisting future families who will have to face such a painful and difficult process.

We call on the Minister and his Department to examine the issue carefully and consider amending the legislation for the sake of our citizens who lose their lives abroad, especially those who are abroad for a short period of time, such as people who are on holiday or on a working visa. Those people are not living permanently in a foreign country at their time of death. They are domiciled in Ireland.

Statistics show that more Irish people than ever are travelling abroad. On average, 6,000 J1 visas and 22,000 working holiday visas are granted annually. There are more than 18,000 Irish emigrants each year, and in 2009, approximately 7 million trips were made from these shores by Irish people.

I ask how many of those people will forfeit their Irish identity by not being registered here if death should befall them before they return home. It is a basic right for parents and families who have suffered a loss of a loved one abroad who is an Irish citizen to have registration in place. I believe that is very important.

In Britain, the legislation is similar. Deaths are registered according to local regulations of the country in which the person died. However, there is also an option to register the death at the British consulate. The record will then be sent to the general registry office within 12 months and a record of the death will be held in the UK. That is known as a consular death certificate.

In the United States a report of death of an American citizen abroad is issued by the US consular officer, and is used in lieu of a foreign death certificate as proof of death.

Irish civil registration forms the backbone of genealogical research in Ireland, because the registration of deaths, births and marriages helps us to identify family groups. These vital records are the most important documented evidence we have of our ancestors. I ask legislators to amend the Civil Registration Act 2004 and help us to bring our loved ones home.

I welcome the delegates. I sympathise with all of them on the tragedy they have all faced. Although I do not know when their children passed way, this time last year they did not expect to be dealing with this issue and I am sure it is extremely difficult for them. I hope we will be able to do something to help.

Some of my questions may not be answered by those present because they are technical questions and perhaps we will need officials to attend on another day to answer them. Do the delegates know if the 2004 Act created this problem or whether it existed prior to that? Has it historically been the case in Irish law or is it a new rule that came in under that Act? The Act was in place in 2004. When the family went to register the death of their son, did the registrar know immediately that it was not an option?

For the other countries referred to by Ms O'Reilly, does she believe the consulate option is sufficient? Does she see it as a partial certificate or would she prefer to have a full death certificate registered in her local registry in Galway?

Ireland has co-operation agreements, from the Department of Social and Family Affairs perspective, with nearly every country to which our people travel, although I am sure there are some exceptions. For example, we have them for Japan and Korea and they exist for all the EU countries, America and so on. I do not understand why, under those types of agreements, there cannot be some solution whereby the information can be passed from those countries to Ireland through whatever mechanisms are contained in those agreements so the deaths could be registered. That is what we need to do.

The Social Welfare Bill is due to come before the Dáil in the coming months. Social Welfare Bills have been used in the past to amend other legislation related to the Department of Social and Family Affairs. Therefore, there would be an opportunity, if not to persuade the Government to introduce a whole new Bill, to amend it through that Social Welfare Bill. We should ask the Minister, who is to come to the committee shortly, to try to do that. The points that have been raised speak for themselves.

I welcome the delegates and extend my condolences to them all for the huge loss they have suffered in such tragic circumstances. We can only begin to appreciate how difficult it must be for them all to have the added anguish of not being able to register their young person's death here.

The delegates provide much very valuable information in the presentation. Apart from the huge issue of an Irish citizen dying abroad and wanting to have that tragedy recognised officially here in terms of the registration of the death, in practical terms, were difficulties caused to the families as a result of not having the death registered here? Perhaps they could tell us about that if it is the case.

Are the families campaigning to have a similar system to the UK, where the death would be registered at the local consulate? Do they have any information about what happens, say, on a Europe-wide basis? In tabling the parliamentary question, discussing it and looking for legal advice on it, I was trying to find out if it is the case in any other EU state, for example, that deaths abroad can be registered in the home state. I had not come across it and I wonder have the families any information in that regard.

This committee is keen to assist the families in any way it can. It is important to have the public hearing today and we will pursue the matter with the Department. Has the delegation met either the Minister or officials in the Department and, if so, what reaction have they had?

I welcome the delegates. I met them a number of times and I know how difficult this is for them. I would appreciate it if I could ask a few questions.

How important does the delegation believe the registration of, in the O'Reillys' case, Keith's death, and the case of the death of a husband, is to the grieving process? Does the O'Reilly family still hold Keith's passport? Is that a live passport here? Given that his death is not registered in Ireland, can somebody take that passport and use it if they have doctored the photograph? If his death were registered here, would that help to ensure that, for example, his passport would not be abused in the event that it got into the wrong hands?

Ms O'Reilly said that if any US or UK citizen dies abroad, the death can now be registered at home. I understand this was not always the case. Do the delegates know why the law changed in the UK some ten years ago? Was it as a result of a similar situation to their own?

Ms O'Reilly made the very valid point that death is part of life. Do the families feel that, because their loved ones' deaths are not allowed at this time to be registered here, in some way their citizenship is of less value because they died abroad? I look forward to hearing the answers to those questions.

I offer my sincere sympathies to the families and commend them on the courage they have shown in making the presentation. It was not easy to come here and deliver the presentation about Ms O'Reilly's son. I was greatly taken by what she said.

Today needs to be a turning point in this campaign. I support Deputy Enright. While this committee has limited influence, we can make a recommendation to the Minister, Deputy Ó Cuív, that an amendment be drawn up. Irrespective of whether it is tagged on to the Social Welfare Bill, the committee should make a unanimous recommendation that an amendment would be brought forward to the Bill so the families would finally be able to get closure for their loved ones.

I commend Ms O'Reilly on her presentation and offer my full support to the families.

I compliment each and every one of the delegates for attending and sympathise with them. I acknowledge Councillor Padraig Conneely, who is the first person who contacted me and asked me to convene this meeting, and I thank the Chairman for doing that.

My 24 year old son is overseas, at sea. I am putting myself in the position of the O'Reilly family. It is an outrage. I would have no closure. The idea of not being able to grieve properly because they do not have that closure is not acceptable.

I resent the Minister's statement in the presentation that "The number of Irish citizens who are domiciled in Ireland and who die abroad is relatively small". It does not matter how many there are. It is about being able to grieve and to bring closure to the family's very sad experience. I ask my colleagues opposite to speak to the Minister, who is very understanding. He will empathise and show compassion. I am the Fine Gael spokesperson on social and family affairs in the Seanad and I will table an amendment to the Social Welfare Bill, in conjunction with Deputy Enright, in support of this issue. From the bottom of my heart I empathise with the delegation.

I welcome the delegation. I know Yvonne O'Reilly and Liam O'Reilly and I met the other members of the delegation for the first time today. I compliment Yvonne O'Reilly on the case put forward and, as Deputy Carey says, it is not an easy thing to do. There is no need for questions on this point. I second Deputy Carey's proposal, that this committee make a recommendation to the Minister to have the necessary amendments made to the 2004 Act to change the situation so that what Yvonne O'Reilly suggests will be possible for all parents in Ireland. Ms O'Reilly provided us with startling figures on the number of Irish citizens, young and old but mainly young, who have lost their lives abroad in tragic circumstances. I second the proposal so that we can help bring closure in this issue.

I know the delegation has no problem with the committee and the committee will fully support the views expressed today. I compliment Councillor Conneely for arranging the presentation of the case by the delegation to the committee. I left most of the work to him because I knew he was handling it well. I will speak to the Minister in a personal capacity and I will pursue the case in the Dáil with the support of this committee, advocating the amendment of the legislation so that those who die abroad can have their death certificate registered here.

I wish to be associated with the warm welcome extended to our guests and offer deepest sympathies on their loss. I echo the comments of Deputy Carey that it is important to acknowledge that this was not easy. It is important for the delegation to appear before this committee. I believe strongly in the committee system. There is scepticism about what Oireachtas committees do but, as colleagues indicated, we can do much. We can listen carefully and we can take action.

The presence of our Galway colleagues, Deputy McCormack and Senator Healy Eames, emphasises the origins of this campaign. However, those who have spoken are from all over the country and we recognise this as an issue for all of us. As a Dublin-based Deputy on the Government side, I am no different in that regard. On behalf of the Fianna Fáil group, I sympathise with the delegation on its loss and I offer solidarity.

We will agree without hesitation to an all-party approach from this committee. We will send a clear message to the Minister in this regard. I will not take advantage of what was said about the Minister but he has already surprised people in recent weeks by showing that he has a caring side. I hope we can take advantage of that as far as this issue is concerned. It may not be easy and if it was easy, the delegation would not be here. Let us understand this point. We will all take the all-party approach and we will raise this with the Minister. We want the Minister to examine the situation and change it.

All members want the delegation to keep in touch with us. I recognise the origins of the campaign and I have no problem with it. We will rise to the challenge and try to help. Today is an important day, as Deputy Carey said, but it is not the end of the campaign. I hope this committee has given the delegation clear encouragement that it will try to help in every way possible.

I extend my sympathies to the family on this great loss. It is important that the committee recognises we can always improve legislation. This legislation should be part of what this committee is about. I undertake to talk to the Minister because I know how important it is to this family and to other families who have the same experience. The Minister would listen to a unanimous decision by this committee. I apologise for Senator Martin Brady, who had to leave the meeting. There is a vote shortly in the Seanad. I support the delegation.

I apologise for being late, I was at a meeting of the Joint Committee on Agriculture, Fisheries and Food. I sympathise with our visitors on their tragic loss. I compliment them on the work they are doing on behalf of other families. The Minister will be receptive and understanding and I hope we can all agree on this committee. We will do all we can to have this ridiculous item of legislation amended.

I extend my sympathies to all families. The loss of a loved one, whether at home or abroad, has devastating effects. We realise how fragile life is. A member of my family died abroad and I know of the shock when one gets the call. There is a feeling of devastation when one cannot be with the people who are there. Trying to get the body home is as difficult as dealing with the loss. For parents, grandparents, nieces, nephews and relatives the period between when they hear the news and when the body is brought home seems like a lifetime. This journey has brought the delegation before this committee and this is a major step for every family throughout the country that has lost someone. It takes courage to come in here, as Deputy Carey said, and to express oneself with love and compassion in a way that only a parent can. It does not matter whether one wears a uniform, these people are members of the family and that is why the delegation is before the committee today.

The small step taken today may encourage other people to come on board and sign the petition. They can believe that someone is out there. Our work is made satisfying by being held accountable because we are elected and we must listen to the people. Today, the delegation is part of the people who make our job what it is. We can change laws and legislation. The delegation has my full support. A small step has been taken today but it will be of great benefit to everyone who loses someone abroad.

I welcome the delegates and I am very sorry. I thank them for a very good presentation. The one satisfaction they have is total commitment of support from every member of the committee. We will send a recommendation to the Minister and we will speak to him personally in our private ways. We will try to get this thing sorted out as soon as possible. If Ms O'Reilly has anything to say to the people around the table she is welcome to do so.

I will respond to some of the questions. We would be quite happy to have a consular record, just to have a record here stating that our loved one existed. We are known as a patriotic nation and so we need to look after our loved ones. Senator Healy Eames asked how Keith's passport stands. I am still looking into it. I do not know the ins and outs of it. There is no record of his death here at the moment. As to what would happen if it fell into the wrong hands, it is too open; I cannot answer directly.

To get full certificates is complicated. In most cases it is necessary to produce a full death certificate to close bank accounts, cancel his airline ticket, cancel his place in college and other things like that. Therefore I needed to go back to Chicago each time to get this death certificate. It is very traumatic. It is very hard to say the words that one's child is no longer living. It is very difficult. When I went into the registration office in Galway to register his death, it was the coldest thing to hear that it had already been done. When I asked who would have registered my son's death I was told "He is registered in America. Next please." It is no reflection on the lady; she was only doing her job. However, he was an Irish citizen and he was my child. It could be somebody else's child tomorrow. He deserves recognition by his country. For that reason I believe we need to bring our loved ones home. If it were just a simple record stating they died in a particular country and one needed to go there to get the full record, so be it. However, we need something on record here to direct us in that line.

Although I just came into the room, I watched Ms O'Reilly's presentation on the monitor in my office. She had written to me. I know Liam O'Reilly and his family from my constituency. Ms O'Reilly spoke very passionately today. She, her family and the other people here whose family members have died abroad have made a very reasonable request. Deputy McCormack told me of the proposal made by this committee, which I support. I welcome Councillor Conneely who has been at the forefront of this campaign. He has contacted me on many occasions to raise the matter here in the Oireachtas. Like my colleagues I also tabled parliamentary questions. It is a very sad situation and one that can be resolved.

The Minister, Deputy Ó Cuív, is now in the relevant Department. There was another situation in that Department before he arrived, which he dealt with. I hope he will deal with this matter speedily and it will be to the satisfaction of the representatives here today. It is a terrible thing to lose a loved one compounded by not being able to register the death in his or her own country. It is a very reasonable request. I fully support Councillor Conneely and compliment him on bringing the representatives here today. I have already spoken to the Minister and have written to him. I will continue to do that. The case will be made even stronger when the committee makes its recommendation today.

I came here to offer my support. I know Liam O'Reilly and his family — a decent, honourable and honest Irish family. I hope they can get the respect and support they deserve.