JOINT COMMITTEE ON EUROPEAN AFFAIRS debate -
Thursday, 22 Apr 2010

This meeting has been arranged to discuss the forthcoming meetings of the Foreign Affairs and Defence Council and the General Affairs and External Relations Council. The Minister for Defence, Deputy Killeen, is in attendance. The Minister for Foreign Affairs, Deputy Martin, is unable to attend because he was called away urgently. He is replaced by the Minister of State, Deputy Roche. I welcome the Minister, Deputy Killeen, who is attending his first meeting of the joint committee. He is very welcome, as are the Minister of State, Deputy Roche, and the officials from the two Departments.

A couple of items that relate specifically to the portfolio of the Minister, Deputy Martin, such as the issue of Burma, will be discussed at the Foreign Affairs Council. The Minister had agreed to follow up some of the queries raised by the committee in that regard. I refer also to the use of fraudulent Irish and EU passports by people who are alleged to have been responsible for the assassination of a senior Hamas military commander in Dubai on 19 January last. As the Minister, Deputy Martin, has particular responsibility in those areas, I suggest we defer any discussion on them until the Minister can attend in person. Is that agreed? Agreed.

I wish to refer briefly to the withdrawal of Irish troops from Kosovo. When the joint committee produced a report on this issue a year ago, it was indicated to the members of the committee that the authorities on the ground in Kosovo and the western Balkans were anxious for the presence of an international peacekeeping force to continue. With that in mind, we have invited the Minister, Deputy Tony Killeen, to give the committee an overview of the situation in the western Balkans and the future of overseas peacekeeping in other locations. The Minister is very welcome to his first meeting of this body. Many years have passed since the Minister and I met at a by-election in a far-flung region. He has come a long way since then. I wish him the very best of luck and invite him to address the committee.

Members will be aware that the presentation that was initially requested by the joint committee related to the meeting of the Foreign Affairs Council that will take place in Luxembourg next Sunday and Monday. I will proceed with that before dealing with the matter mentioned by the Chairman and answering any questions members may have.

The meeting of the defence ministers comprises four sessions. The first session on Sunday evening will be a working dinner chaired by the High Representative for Common Foreign and Security Policy, Baroness Ashton, the second session will be a meeting of the European Defence Agency steering board, the third session will be a formal meeting of defence ministers and the fourth and final session will be a joint working session of ministers for foreign affairs and defence. Next Sunday's working dinner will mark the first time the high representative has chaired a meeting of defence ministers since her appointment last December. The focus of the discussion will be the European External Action Service, the configuration of future meetings of the Foreign Affairs Council and defence ministers and, briefly, current Common Security and Defence Policy operations.

Preparations for the European External Action Service, which is being developed in the context of the broad mandate of High Representative Ashton, are continuing. The EU military staff will be incorporated into the structure of the European External Action Service. It is not clear what implications this will have for the military staff. I will use this opportunity to engage with the high representative on her plans for making progress with this integration. Current indications suggest that recruitment to the European External Action Service is unlikely to begin before this autumn.

The Spanish Presidency has pushed for change to be made to the formal and informal configuration of meetings of defence ministers. It believes it has an opportunity to enhance current Common Security and Defence Policy structures by transforming the current informal practice into formal procedure. The overall intention is to streamline the existing procedures. It is proposed that the Foreign Affairs Council will meet in defence ministers format to decide on matters which fall exclusively within the domain of defence ministers at national level; that issues relating to military capabilities and capability development, practical issues relating to military aspects of EU operations and the development of the battle group concept will be decided by defence ministers; and that broader issues which have both defence and foreign policy aspects will continue to be dealt with at joint foreign and defence ministers meetings. I expect the discussion at the dinner to revolve around the type of issues that might be dealt with by defence ministers. I imagine we will hear the plans of the high representative and vice president in this regard. Ireland, like many other member states, is open to the concept of greater involvement by defence ministers in EU decision-making processes on the Common Security and Defence Policy. We support the streamlining of the relevant procedures so that decision making becomes more efficient and effective.

Discussions on current Common Security and Defence Policy operations will be held at the informal dinner on Sunday and again during the third session, which will be the formal meeting of defence ministers. Operation Atalanta continues to play a leading role in international counter-piracy efforts off the coast of Somalia. It is generally held that the dissuasive effects of Operation EU NAVFOR Atalanta on piracy activity off the Horn of Africa largely depend not only on effective and comprehensive patrolling and surveillance but also on effective prosecution of suspected pirates captured in the course of the operation. To this end, Kenya has accepted the transfer for subsequent prosecution of 77 suspected pirates. Arrangements are being negotiated with other countries in the region to accept captured pirates for prosecution. Unfortunately, Kenya has recently given notice of its intention to terminate the current arrangements. There is wide agreement at EU level that the continued success of the mission will depend on a resolution being found to the Kenyan issue.

One of the key issues for the success of Operation Atalanta is the development of effective and operational security forces in Somalia. The lack of a functional security apparatus means that pirates can operate from Somalia with impunity. As part of the Union's comprehensive approach to Somalia, an EU military mission to contribute to the training of Somali security forces was launched on 7 April 2010. The development and training of the security forces of the transitional government of Somalia is supported by the UN and is mandated under UN Security Council resolutions. The objective of the EU training mission in Somalia is to contribute to strengthening the transitional federal government of Somalia as a functioning government serving the Somali population. The EU military mission will operate in close co-operation and co-ordination with international partners, including the Somali transitional federal government, Uganda, the African Union, the UN and the United States. The training will take place in Uganda and the troops will be reintegrated into the Somali security forces and monitored thereafter by the UN mandated African Union mission in Somalia. The Government has approved the deployment of five personnel to the mission to assist in the training of potential Somali non-commissioned officers. Four of the Irish personnel will be located in the training camp in Bihanga and one in Kampala. The Irish team will be partnered on this mission for a period of 12 months by personnel from the armed forces of Malta. I warmly welcome the support of the Maltese armed forces in this regard. The Irish troops will deploy today.

With regard to Operation Althea in Bosnia-Herzegovina, the security situation remains calm and stable. However, the political situation in Bosnia-Herzegovina continues to be marked by a lack of trust among the three main ethnic groups — Bosniaks, Serbs and Croats. The committee will be aware that a reduction in Defence Forces personnel serving with Althea, from 43 to five, was scheduled for July 2010. This was based on an expectation that the transition of the EUFOR mission to a training and support mission would be well in train by then. However, the transition to a smaller training and support mission is now not expected to be completed until December 2010. With this in mind and following a request by the operation commander, General McColl, and in light of the early and unexpected withdrawal from MINURCAT in Chad, I am pleased to inform the committee that I have decided to defer the drawdown of the Defence Forces contingent serving with Operation Althea. The new expected date of withdrawal is December 2010. The question of future participation in the follow-on EU training and support mission for the Bosnian security forces will be considered at that time.

The humanitarian situation in Haiti remains serious, with more than 1 million people living in temporary settlements in and around Port-au-Prince. While Ireland is not in a position to offer military assets to this mission, we have made a substantial contribution to the relief effort. A three-person Irish Aid technical assessment team, which included a military engineer officer of the Defence Forces, conducted a week-long mission in Haiti. The team compiled a report for the Minister for Foreign Affairs, outlining the appropriate measures Ireland should take to assist the relief effort in Haiti. None of the measures outlined was defence related or involved the use of military assets or personnel. As part of the Council meeting, a meeting of the European Defence Agency steering board will be convened in ministers for defence formation. The chief executive of the agency, Mr. Alexander Weis, will open this second working session and will give a brief update on the significant issues that have advanced since the previous ministerial steering board meeting. Included in this will be an update on the impact of the Lisbon treaty on the Council decision which established the agency.

Mr. Weis is also expected to provide an update on the ongoing implementation of the EDA capability development plan and some specific projects which support it. EDA-NATO relations, in particular the ongoing informal contacts between the two organisations, will also be discussed. As members will be aware, 21 of the 27 EU members are also members of NATO. It is important, therefore, that there is positive co-operation to ensure there is no duplication of effort across the organisations in terms of capability development.

The meeting will then continue with a number of items to be noted and approved. The first of these will be the noting of the work plan for 2011-13. The work plan includes a range of studies and initiatives including: communication and information systems; intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance; counter-improvised explosive devices; maritime surveillance; helicopter availability and training; strategic transport; and medical support.

Ireland has a key interest in the development of technologies and capabilities which support the protection of our troops engaged in peace support and crisis management operations. It participates in the framework of the agency and, therefore, contributes to the operational budget which funds the annual work plan. The areas funded by the work plan are important from a force protection perspective and are supported by Ireland.

The second item on the agenda will ask the Defence Ministers to accept the outline scope of a programme on protection against chemical, biological, radiological and nuclear, CBRN threats, task the agency to prepare a programme on unmanned aerial systems, UAS, and investigate and prepare a scoping document on situational awareness in conjunction with the participating member states, Norway, the European Commission and the European Space Agency.

The EDA will introduce a food for thought paper on defence research which will aim to initiate a discussion among Ministers on the future of defence research in Europe and achieving synergies and economies between defence and civil security research, including dual use technologies. The Ministers will also be presented with the "wise pen" report, a CSDP think piece on maritime surveillance for noting at the meeting. The think piece sets out EU specific needs and supports the establishment of a joint task force, comprising the Commission, Council secretariat and EDA, to advance common surveillance issues in the area of maritime safety and security, having regard to the development of an integrated maritime policy for the EU as a whole. Ireland supports an integrated approach to maritime safety and security, in particular given the role of the Naval Service as the primary sea-going agency of the State.

The development of technologies which support the integration of information from a range of sources — national, EU and international — so as to provide a picture of all activity in our exclusive economic zone waters is key to improving the effectiveness of the Naval Service and other State actors in combating criminal activities and protecting our maritime environment and resources. Ministers will be asked to endorse the proposed way ahead and recommend that the proposed approach should be used as a basis for promoting co-operation and efficiencies and developing synergies between all stakeholders in the maritime domain.

The third session of the meeting of Ministers for Defence is devoted to a discussion on military capabilities. The focus of the first item in this session will be on current European Defence Agency activities. The head of the EDA will present a report on the agency's activities on capability development.

The second item to be addressed under capabilities will be examining the area of an EU maritime security strategy. While this was a Presidency initiative, it is expected that, with the development of the wise pen report, maritime security issues will now be advanced chiefly through the joint task force recommended in the report.

I have discussed the humanitarian situation in Haiti and Ireland's response. The discussion on military means to be used as a rapid response to natural disasters is in reaction to the perceived lack of EU visibility on the ground in the immediate aftermath of the Haiti earthquake. While Ireland is broadly supportive of the use of military means in support of civilian actors as a rapid response to areas struck by natural disasters, whether this approach is the most appropriate response to a natural disaster should be dealt with on a case by case basis.

It is our view that EU rapid response capabilities, such as EU battle groups, should also be examined as an important component of the EU crisis response toolbox. For example, the strategic airlift capacity, helicopters and other capabilities within the battle groups may provide an appropriate response to humanitarian disasters. The flexible use of EU battle groups will be among the issues discussed in this session. The third session closes with a discussion on current Common Security and Defence Policy operations with which I have already dealt.

The fourth working session is jointly attended by Ministers for Foreign Affairs and Defence. The main item for discussion here is the situation in Afghanistan. I understand the NATO Secretary General will attend for this session. Although there are no Council conclusions foreseen on Afghanistan, it is expected that the NATO Secretary General will brief the meeting on the current position in the country from a NATO perspective. As members will be aware, both NATO and the EU are operational in Afghanistan. It is important, therefore, that there be effective co-ordination between the respective operations of both organisations. Seven Irish Defence Forces personnel are serving with ISAF based at the ISAF headquarters in Kabul. They are working in planning and administrative roles.

I congratulate the Minister for Defence, Deputy Tony Killeen, on his appointment and welcome him, the Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs, Deputy Dick Roche, and their officials to the meeting. The agenda the Minister set out is extensive and broader than anything we have seen previously. His brief will, therefore, include much more activity than previously, partly as a result of the Lisbon treaty. Does the Department propose to produce a document outlining the Minister's responsibilities and areas of operation in the context of the treaty? This would give members an idea of what the Minister perceives to be the new powers granted under the treaty, especially to the European Defence Agency.

I note the forthcoming discussions will produce a capability development plan and food for thought paper. Given that these developments will extend the remit of the European Defence Agency, members will wish to have them brought before the joint committee to allow it to examine what is the thinking arising out of Council meetings. In particular, I wish to discover how the Department and Minister view their role and Ireland's participation in the EDA arising from the Lisbon treaty.

In respect of Operation Atalanta, I am somewhat mystified that Ireland should send five personnel to provide training in the context of piracy on the high seas. What sort of information or expertise do our personnel have in this area and what is the value in having an Irish contingent in the operation? What type of training will it provide?

I am pleased Operation Althea is continuing in Bosnia and Herzegovina. I note also the Minister did not refer to the withdrawal of Irish troops from Kosovo. We received some documentation, including a letter requesting that, following the withdrawal of our troops, Ireland provide alternative services in Kosovo, for example, in education, facilities for dealing with unemployment and anti-poverty measures. While I am aware that these are separate areas with separate budgets, it would be desirable to beef up the Irish Aid programme in the context of the reduction in expenditure in Kosovo. I ask the Minister to respond.

On Haiti, the Minister indicated that Ireland does not have any objection to using our military capability to assist in natural disasters of this nature. While that is fair enough, the real concern expressed around this table relates to the lack of cohesion and co-ordination, whether in terms of a military or civilian force. A plethora of non-governmental organisations appears to be trying to get it on the act and they are competing for resources and advertising. This is a little embarrassing at times in the context of a large-scale natural disaster which has caused major human suffering and the deaths of a large number of people. A coherent approach is required. Such an approach should be co-ordinated by national authorities, rather than being left to each individual organisation to do its own thing. In many cases, the Irish authorities are seen to be brought in train behind individual organisations. I would like to investigate how we could have a more coherent response to natural disasters, especially since there is a major commitment in the Lisbon treaty to co-ordinate and express solidarity in our activities in that regard.

Is a draft available of the work plan for 2011 to 2013? Will the Minister come back to us on the matter? I would appreciate it if that could happen.

From the perspective of an island nation, the maritime security strategy is an extremely important matter. I am sure other countries might be more interested in other strategic security issues but from our point of view the main thrust of our security is very much in the context of the significant quantity of drugs and weapons that are imported into this country on a regular basis and the inability to put together a European maritime policy that would protect our coastline. We cannot do it ourselves adequately without the required resources but if we are to have a European maritime surveillance and security strategy then we should have a major input into the issues that are of grievous concern to this country at present. They are mainly related to the importation of drugs not just for the Irish market because this country is used as a handy clearing house for other markets as well. Many drug shipments are now accompanied by weapons.

I still cannot understand why we have seven personnel in Afghanistan. I do not know what they are doing there. Afghanistan is a theatre of war. We are not at war with anyone. I fail to understand why we have accredited personnel to participate in a war zone. We know the European Union has a policy of trying to bring about a peaceful solution but none of that policy is being operated on the ground.

I welcome the two Ministers. In particular, I wish good luck to the Minister for Defence, Deputy Tony Killeen, in his new post. Coming from Kildare we appreciate the importance of the role of the Minister for Defence. I am sure he will be a regular visitor to the county. Listening to the contribution he made it is clear that he has a big agenda to deal with next weekend.

The Minister referred to the early and unexpected withdrawal from MINURCAT. He will be aware that a significant number of members of the Defence Forces were in preparation to serve in Chad. It can be disappointing when the whistle is blown and the planned event for which one is training does not happen. Will the Minister outline the future plans from the point of view of further service overseas and what members of the Defence Forces can look forward to in the near future?

While Haiti has disappeared off our screens to a large extent we should not neglect or forget what happened as it is a humanitarian situation that deserves and requires the full support of the rest of the world if we are to deal with it appropriately. The Minister referred to a small team of members of the Irish Defence Forces that visited Haiti and compiled a report outlining the appropriate measures we could take to assist in the relief effort. Will he comment on the main points of the report and is it possible to make the report available to the committee?

I am sorry I was late. I join in the congratulations and good wishes to the Minister for Defence, Deputy Killeen, on his well-deserved appointment. I congratulate General Earley on obtaining a distinguished service medal, DSM, and wish him and his family well.

Fine Gael is supportive of the use of battle groups as a rapid reaction force for humanitarian tasks. The rapid response approach comes under the control of the Minister for Foreign Affairs. We must evolve the concept to allow persons outside the public service to become involved. It is a tremendous mechanism to allow people to operate abroad at short notice.

Fine Gael is also supportive of the international naval force off the coast of Somalia. We called for such a move before it was set up. I welcome the fact that Irish personnel are going abroad to train. In the past, especially when resources were short in this country, we used the resources we had to train other personnel. In the 1960s and 1970s personnel from Zambia came to Ireland for training and paid a fee for it. Perhaps the Minister could consider developing existing training resources to train forces from abroad in order to obtain funding for the Defence Forces. I would welcome such a development.

I also congratulate my constituency colleague, Deputy Killeen, on his appointment as Minister for Defence. His promotion is well deserved and I wish him well in his role. The defence portfolio is an important one post-Lisbon treaty. I know the Minister will work hard in that role.

I refer to Operation Atalanta off the coast of Somalia. The European Union is now taking an active role in sending naval personnel and ships to the area. In his contribution the Minister referred to the fact that the success of the operation depends on the comprehensive patrolling, surveillance and prosecution of suspected pirates. Will he elaborate on the difficulty of prosecuting cases given that the pirates work at sea and are apprehended by various navies? The success of that aspect of the operation is crucial. Will he also refer to the work being done in that regard by the five Army personnel based in Kampala in Uganda?

Both the Chairman and I visited Camp Althea in Sarajevo in Bosnia-Herzegovina last year. It is a sad city. We visited the camp and got a full explanation of the comprehensive work the Defence Forces do while abroad. Many Army personnel are skilled in their work. The situation in the area is volatile given that one is dealing with three ethnic groups, Bosnians, Serbs and Croats. I was delighted to hear the camp will continue and that Army personnel will remain there until December. Concern was expressed to us during our visit last year that the camp would close in July last. Valuable work is done by the Defence Forces and the Garda to support the Bosnian security forces.

In his contribution the Minister referred to the aftermath of the earthquake in Haiti. American visibility was considerable but there was little EU visibility on the ground. Catherine Ashton visited the area since although she was not there at the outset. The US Secretary of State, Hillary Clinton did visit. Concern was expressed that the EU high representative had not visited the area. Perhaps the Minister will elaborate on the operations of the European Union and the response unit in Haiti. Will he refer briefly to Kosovo and the fact that Irish troops are to be withdrawn therefrom? The committee is interested in Kosovo and the western Balkans area.

I welcome Deputy Killeen who is present for the first time at this committee as Minister for Defence.

My questions have been covered by others. One relates to the exact point made by Deputy Pat Breen on Haiti. I come from a marketing background and it seems to me that sometimes, if one is to obtain support, one must ensure it is recognised. I fear that in the case of Haiti, the excellent work being done and which needs to continue on the part of Europeans is not being recognised. To some extent, we are inclined to blame High Representative Ashton for the lack of profile initially. Will the Minister confirm whether Ms Ashton has been in the region? The Americans have a much higher profile than the Union. Haiti is much closer to America than to Europe but if Europeans are to continue to obtain support they need a higher profile.

My other query concerns Afghanistan. It had slipped my mind that Irish troops are in Afghanistan. There are seven in Kabul. The Minister says they are involved in planning and administrative roles. We always took pride in our determination that we are a neutral country. Therefore, how do we manage to operate in Afghanistan with NATO? Is there a danger that our legislation on neutrality is compromised in some way? What are the seven personnel doing in Kabul? Is it possible they are operating with NATO rather than separately? Are there other EU countries in a similar position to Ireland in that they have personnel in Afghanistan but are not members of NATO?

Will the Minister keep us up to date on Kosovo? Will our departure therefrom create the problems suggested to us by some of those who have been writing to us as representatives?

There was a broad range of questions, some of which are more relevant to my colleague, the Minister of State at the Department of Foreign Affairs, Deputy Roche. I will deal with those that are relevant to my Department.

On Deputy Costello's questions, the European Defence Agency already exists. I understand there is no proposed change to its remit arising from the ratification of the Lisbon treaty.

With regard to the Deputy's idea on a paper, I will be more than happy to produce one on any of the issues if the committee wishes. Circumstances are evolving since the ratification of the Lisbon treaty, for example, in regard to the European External Action Service. In this regard, there may be something to report after the weekend's meetings. If so, I will be happy to revert to the committee thereon.

With regard to Operation Atalanta off Somalia, which has been raised by every member, it is important to remember that the issue is more or less as outlined by Deputy Pat Breen. Having undertaken surveillance and captured suspects, one needs a country to which they can be sent and in which they can be tried. The role of our people is not a maritime role but an internal security role in terms of helping the Government to develop the systems needed to deal with the people in question. Seventy-seven suspects have been accepted in Kenya, in respect of which acceptance there have been some difficulties. There is no advantage to be gained from capturing the suspects if there is nowhere to take them for trial.

In Bosnia-Herzegovina we have received a request to remain for the rest of the year and we have acceded to it. It is important to remember the overall context of the developments in Kosovo. There has been a very substantial downsizing of the forces from slightly more than 15,000 to approximately 9,000. It is in this context that the Irish drawdown is occurring. It is what was planned and I hope it is on foot of positive developments in the region.

Humanitarian aid in Haiti was raised by more or less every member. On Deputy Costello's point on co-ordinating the Irish approach, I am not up to speed on how it might best be done. From experience, I believe the levels of expertise and professionalism of the non-governmental organisations, NGOs, involved in the sector are extraordinarily high by international standards. Whatever is to be done will have to take account of their activities.

Senator Quinn and others stated there is a perception that the European Union had a relatively low profile in Haiti. That is really a matter for the Department of Foreign Affairs. My colleague in that Department has indicated he will be happy to deal with it. My remit covers the question of whether military presence or support is needed. As Deputy Timmins said, there are circumstances in which this could be helpful. I will return to this when responding to his question. With regard to the 2011-13 work programme, I will revert to Deputy Costello. On the issue of drugs importation and the necessity for much greater co-ordination of effort across European states, I outlined yesterday during Question Time the role of the Lisbon-based agency for co-operation regarding drugs. It is enjoying some success. Ultimately, the European Union will have a maritime agreement to which Ireland will be central. Members should have no doubt about this because Ireland has the largest sea area. The agreement will improve our response to drugs importation by sea and other issues.

Our people in Afghanistan are in administrative and planning roles, as has been said, and they are present under a full UN mandate. We meet the requirements in that regard. I note the concerns expressed by members and they must be borne in mind. Sweden and Finland, for example, have considerable commitments in Afghanistan. Ultimately, no matter how bad the circumstances are in any of the conflict zones or war zones, we must be prepared, under the triple lock requirement and others, to make whatever positive contribution we can. In this instance, we are considered to be making a positive contribution.

Deputy Power asked about MINURCAT and stated people were preparing to travel to Chad. I cannot overemphasise the extent to which the Government would have liked to have continued with the mission. Its view is that there is still a need for it and that Ireland can make a contribution. However, the last extension of the mandate was for a very short period and it was made at very short notice. We have more than 400 personnel in the region and we must obviously take account of their safety in the first instance. We have a lot of valuable equipment in the country and it would be very unhelpful were we not to be there. We must take account of that. Taking all the circumstances into account, we had to take the decision we took.

Deputy Power asked what will happen next. The truth is that I do not know. I do not believe even senior UN staff know at this point. However, the indications are that if the mandate were to be extended, it would be unlikely to be at chapter 7 level. It could be chapter 6, for example, and this would make an enormous difference to the input people could have. We do not know what is to occur and it is unlikely an agreement will be reached before some date early next month. In the circumstances, we had no choice.

Deputy Power asked about Haiti and the capacity to assist in a relief effort. A reasonable point is that a very quick response is expected of defence forces. We should make judgments case by case. It may well be that European capability will be brought into play at an earlier point and this must be considered. It was mentioned by Deputy Timmins in the context of the battle group and rapid response capability which undoubtedly exists. We are positively disposed to considering this in terms of humanitarian aid. Deputy Timmins mentioned Ireland's training role in the UN, prominent in the 1960s and 1970s. It is still happening, with some Maltese officers, for example, being trained at the Curragh, but not on the scale it used to be.

Deputy Pat Breen asked about difficulties with Operation Atalanta and the EU's role in patrolling and surveillance of piracy off Somalia. The main difficulty has been finding somewhere to deal with arrested suspects. I also note the Deputy's points about Bosnia-Herzegovina and the visibility issue with Haiti.

I welcome the opportunity to review the busy set of agendas for next week's General Affairs Council and Foreign Affairs Council meetings. With the Chairman's permission, I propose to give the committee a brief read-out of the key items discussed at the March meetings of General Affairs Council and Foreign Affairs Council.

The March General Affairs Council had a detailed discussion on preparations and draft conclusions for the spring European Council meeting which took place later that week, the outcome of which was the subject of an extensive debate in the Dáil. The council and the Foreign Affairs Council held a joint session to discuss the state of play on the establishment of the external action service, in preparation for its discussion at next week's General Affairs Council.

At the Foreign Affairs Council, the High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy, Catherine Ashton, and the EU Commissioner for Humanitarian Aid and Civil Protection, Kristalina Georgieva, reported to Ministers on their visit to Haiti. They gave a positive assessment of the well co-ordinated EU humanitarian response. Ms Ashton has been to Haiti on several occasions and made the point the EU's focus must be on an effective and efficient humanitarian response. The EU, however, does not get publicity for its aid programmes, a deficit which needs to be addressed. A brief discussion of the Chilean earthquake aftermath also took place. The decision was taken at the March meeting to appoint a new EU special representative to Afghanistan, a former colleague of mine, Mr. Vygaudas Ušackas, the former Lithuanian foreign Minister.

The Middle East peace process does not feature on this month's agenda, following the extensive lunch-time discussion which took place at the March meeting. That discussion took place immediately following the High Representative of the Union for Foreign Affairs and Security Policy, Catherine Ashton's, first visit to the region from 14 March to 18 March, including Gaza, and her subsequent participation in the Quartet meeting in Moscow on 19 March. There was broad agreement on the need to continue to support US efforts aimed at convening proximity talks, as well as encouraging the Israeli Government to undertake genuine confidence-building measures rather than further reducing the rather limited space for political progress through the creation of new facts on the ground.

Unfortunately, one month on, we are still awaiting a decisive response from Israel to the proposals for advancing the talks process which we understand the Obama Administration has presented. I hope there will be a positive response from the Israeli Government to these proposals.

EU-Ukraine relations, the situation in Moldova and the Swiss-Libya Schengen visa issue were discussed. In addition, Slovenia briefed on a western Balkans conference which it had recently hosted and which brought together all the prime ministers of the region, with the exception of Serbia. Poland also mentioned a forthcoming Community of Democracies meeting in Krakow.

In the joint session on Monday, Foreign and Defence Ministers will consider the situation in Somalia and Afghanistan. They will also note the customary conclusions setting out developments in the Union's common security defence policy, CSDP. Ministers may focus on the implications of the recent decision of the Kenyan authorities to discontinue prosecutions of suspected pirates detained by the EU's naval Operation Atalanta with effect from September. There is not much point in arresting people if there is nowhere to forward them for trial.

Afghanistan was discussed at the last meeting of the Council in March. I expect the discussion to be wider on this occasion, not only because defence Ministers will be present, but also because we will have an opportunity to hear directly from the NATO Secretary General, Mr. Rasmussen, who will attend part of the meeting during which it will be in informal session. Our discussion is likely to encompass the various initiatives and meetings under way or in preparation, including the on-going military-civilian Operation Moshtarak in Helmand Province, the Afghanistan President's agenda for national reintegration and reconciliation, the peace jirga, a consultative forum with all the main ethnic and tribal groups, and the international conference in Kabul, now expected to be held on 20 July.

The draft Council conclusions on the CSDP, which are being discussed at official level, make reference to strengthening the EU-NATO strategic partnership in crisis management, a position Ireland has always supported, especially in the form of agreeing effective practical co-operation in Afghanistan between the EU's police support mission, EUPOL, and ISAP.

The Council will also refer to the EU action plan for Afghanistan and Pakistan, which foreign Ministers agreed on 27 October last, to enhance the effectiveness of EU assistance programmes in the area. The action plan represents a renewed commitment on behalf of the EU as a whole to increase the effectiveness of EU assistance by channelling its resources in support of the strategic development priorities of the Afghan Government and to strive for a common approach in national measures and aid programmes there.

The first six-monthly report on the implementation of the action plan has been published. We need to pursue a more co-ordinated approach to key sectors in Afghanistan, including greater coordination of funding.

The situation in Kyrgyzstan will be discussed and Council conclusions are expected. Mass protests on 6 April and 7 April resulted in the country's president, Mr. Bakiyev, fleeing the capital, Bishkek, and the establishment of an interim government by opposition leaders. Mr. Bakiyev has since left the country.

Ireland shares the concern expressed by the EU at the loss of life during the protests in Kyrgyzstan. While the situation stabilised last week, there has been a concerning increase in violent incidents in Bishkek and in Mr. Bakiyev's home region in recent days. The EU Special Representative for Central Asia, Pierre Morel, travelled to Kyrgyzstan immediately after the unrest and made contact with key people, including the interim government. It is important that the EU engage with the interim government as it emerges and with other parties inKyrgyzstan to assist the country in moving forward, including on democratisation and reform.

Iran has been taken off the agenda for Monday's meeting. The Presidency says that it will, however, be on the agenda in May.

Foreign Ministers will also discuss the elections held in Sudan this month. These elections, which were the first in 25 years, represent a vital step in Sudan's transition to democratic government. Initial reports from observers, including a large EU observation mission, indicate that notwithstanding many deficiencies in the electoral process, the elections were concluded in a relatively peaceful and calm atmosphere. I might as well touch on ongoing difficulties with the full implementation of the comprehensive peace agreement between the north and south and the continuation of the conflict in the Darfur region, as well as associated tensions with the international community over the International Criminal Court, ICC, arrest warrant for President Bashir.

Burma is on the agenda, largely as a result of a request from this committee. The Minister for Foreign Affairs requested that it should be on the agenda. In addition to discussion on the current situation, I expect the Council will agree to extend UN sanctions for a further year and to issue conclusions setting out our views on the troubling political situation in Burma. Further to some recent correspondence with the committee, the Minister is very pleased to brief members on the situation. The key issue for us at present is the upcoming elections in Burma and the conditions under which they will be held. Although they are expected to take place in the last quarter of the year, no date has been confirmed.

On 10 March the Burmese regime published the five laws governing the conduct of elections which, unfortunately, confirm for the Department of Foreign Affairs that they will not be fair, free, inclusive or transparent as the international community has long demanded. In spite of a broad view that the terms of the discredited 2008 constitution virtually preclude the ability of credible elections, the international community believed it was important to do all in its power to urge the regime to conduct a credible election process. I believe we shall be disappointed again in that particular regard, however.

We have also made clear the need for all political prisoners, including in particular Aung San Suu Kyi, to be released without delay and for a process of national dialogue and reconciliation involving all opposition and all ethnic groups to be initiated in advance of the election. Ireland, the European Union, the United Nations and a number of ASEAN members have played an active role in such efforts.

As members of the committee will be aware, none of the initiatives called for has happened. Efforts by the new US Administration to try to engage with the regime in the interest of promoting the agenda of credible elections have also met with virtual silence. Instead of being given her freedom, Aung San Suu Kyi's detention was extended for a period of 18 months in August to ensure she was not in a position to contest the elections or lead her party during the course of the campaign. Few other political prisoners have been released and no efforts have been made to initiate national dialogue. The electoral laws recently published indicate that the Burmese regime intends to control every aspect of the preparation of the elections, their outcome and the future government that will emerge. Many Burmese opposition and ethnic groups have responded quickly, making clear their view that the elections will be a sham. Aung San Suu Kyi declared that the new laws were unjust and her NLD party announced in late March that it will neither register for not contest the elections on the basis of these laws. This means, unfortunately, that the party will have to be dissolved in the next month.

There have been strong expressions of concern from the international community. As members will recall, the EU agreed in December last to send an exploratory mission at official level to Burma which would focus on the election process, essentially to investigate whether the EU can play a part in encouraging a credible electoral process. Clearly, before such a mission proceeds, we shall need to review our position very carefully to be satisfied that the benefits of fielding it would significantly exceed the fairly substantial arguments against such a visit.

The issue of the EEAS and resources and relations with strategic partners is also on the agenda. It was flagged at the March meeting of the Council. High Representative Ashton has proposed a strategic discussion on the distribution resources around the world and the EU's relations with key partners on global issues. The discussion is scheduled to take place over lunch on Monday. Foreign ministers previously discussed the Union's relations with strategic partners at the meeting which was held early in March. The Office of the High Representative will circulate statistics on the allocation of EU resources in the coming days to facilitate discussion. High Representative Ashton is expected to brief on Monday as to how she intends to take forward the preparatory work on this item in the lead-up to a special meeting of the European Council which is to be held in September. That will examine how the Union can better engage with strategic partners.

Turning to the General Affairs Council, this will focus on the follow-up to the European Council in Brussels, which was held on 25 and 26 March. There is very little to report on the issue of climate change. It is the first item on the agenda as a follow-up to the European Council meeting. The spring Council allowed the Heads of State or Government to hold their much delayed first discussion on climate change post-Copenhagen. The European Council advocated a stepwise approach, building on the Copenhagen Accord, which should focus on integrating political guidance of the accord into the various negotiating texts. There is also a call on the COP 16 Conference in December to anchor the accord to the UN process and to address some of the key remaining gaps. We welcome the Council's reaffirmation of EU support to the UN process and pledge to strengthen the EU's outreach to third countries. The European Council also reiterated the quick start made to financing commitments and agreed to present a preliminary state of play at the June UNFCCC session.

The General Affairs Council may discuss recent meetings of two main UN negotiating tracts, the ad hoc working group on the Kyoto Protocol and the ad hoc working group on long-term co-operative action. The next step in the process is expected to be taken at the UNFCCC meeting in Bonn, which will be held in June.

Turning to financial regulation and supervision, again there is very little to report. The General Affairs Council is expected to note briefly the conclusions of the European Council on financial regulation and supervision. The European Council agreed that rapid progress is needed on the straightening out of financial regulation supervision within the European Union in international forums such as the G20. It may also touch on Commissioner Bernier's proposals regarding an EU crisis management framework which was presented at an informal ECOFIN in Madrid on 17 April. The Commissioner is expected to issue a communication in October outlining proposals for crisis management and prevention across the entire spectrum of financial activities. Work on this is still at a fairly early stage.

Turning to the European strategy for jobs and growth, the so-called Euro 2020, the General Affairs Council will provide Ministers with an opportunity to exchange on the various follow-up strands concerned with the European strategy for jobs and growth. The European Council agreed on the main elements of the new strategy, including key targets which will guide its implementation and arrangements for its improved monitoring. We welcome the new strategy and generally support its aims and ambitions. We are very satisfied with the broad thrust of the five EU headline targets that the European Council has agreed upon: employment; research and development, including innovation; climate change and energy education; social inclusion; and, in particular, poverty. There is now a significant body of work to be undertaken in relation to various aspects of the strategy both at national and EU levels ahead of the anticipated formal adoption of the strategy at the June European Council.

There will be discussion on the European External Action Service, EEAS. The General Affairs Council will discuss this in some detail. It has been discussed at previous meetings. The establishment of the EEAS is one of the most significant innovations of the Lisbon treaty. It will work to assist High Representative Ashton in carrying out her mandate, which is designed to ensure the consistency and better co-ordination of the Union's external actions and to address the very point that was made by Senator Quinn, namely, that the European Union appears sometimes to be involved and sometimes not. The high representative recently put forward a proposal in accordance with the Lisbon treaty for a Council decision on the organisation and the functioning of the EEAS. There have been intensive discussions at an intensive level recently at official level. It is hoped that member states can reach broad agreement on Monday and we are broadly happy with the text, subject to some fairly minor points. This dossier has been developing for some time and because it will involve co-decision, the European Parliament will be involved at a later stage. The European Parliament itself has some fairly strong views on the EEAS.

Ministers will have an orientation debate on the European citizens' initiative and I look forward to participating in it. The citizens' initiative is one of the major innovations in the Lisbon treaty and it has the potential to reinforce citizens' and organised civil society's involvement in the shaping of the EU policy agenda. The draft regulation issued last month by the Commission appears to strike a reasonable balance between our wish to have an open system and the need for controls to prevent abuse. The draft also takes account of the recent public consultation process which evoked a substantial response from across the EU, including from the Oireachtas. Special implementing arrangements will be needed here as we do not currently have a system of popular initiative or petition. These will be required to manage the collection, authentication and verification of signatures.

The EU Presidency has published a paper identifying four key issues which will provide the focus of next Monday's discussions. These are the registration and admissibility of the proposed initiative; the minimum number of signatories per member state; the procedures for collecting signatures or support; and the use of on-line systems for collecting support. When we discussed the number of signatories per member state here, there was a broad feeling that the figure of 0.2% was about right. That has been replaced by a somewhat complex mathematical formula which will have the effect of reducing the numbers required in Ireland from about 11,000 to 9,000. If I recall rightly, the Chairman pointed out that if one stood outside a hostelry on O'Connell Street, 11,000 signatures could easily be collected. I am glad the Presidency will focus on these key issues and I would be happy to address them in detail this morning, if committee members so wish.

There is a number of other issues. I suspect there will be a discussion on the travel disruption as a result of the volcanic ash. There will also be some discussion on northern Cyprus, the co-operation and verification mechanisms for Bulgaria and Romania and enlargement issues, including that of Turkey. That concludes my comments on the agenda and I will be pleased to take questions from members of the committee.

I thank the Minister of State for his detailed contribution. It is important the issue of flight disruption caused by the volcanic ash gets priority at the upcoming meeting. There is much uncertainty involved and people do not have the expertise to decide whether the right or wrong decisions were made, but it is important that some sort of expert advice is made available so that people can understand why decisions were made. It is always important to err on the side of safety when dealing with aircraft, but some certainty must be brought to the issue.

The Minister of State said that Middle East issues will not be on the agenda. There was a detailed discussion on them the last time and it is clear the Council hopes that proximity talks can take place. If the current situation persists between Israel and the Palestinians, what can we in Ireland and in Europe do? Some members of the Minister of State's party have called for a boycott of Israeli goods. I do not know if that is something the Government has examined, or if it is just rhetoric. I am not sure if it would achieve anything, but I would like to know what the EU will do if the blockade of Gaza continues and the development of roadblocks and settlements in the West Bank persists.

The Minister for Foreign Affairs stated during question time in the Dáil recently that he would draw up a paper on the Schengen agreement, with a view to the possible entry of Ireland into the agreement in the future. Are there any developments since then?

The Minister for Defence spoke about the difficulty in Chad and the UN mandate. Would the Government consider looking at the concept of the triple lock? The areas of conflict in the African continent are generally subject to geopolitical interests, which may make it impossible in future to obtain a UN security resolution. We are mature enough to make our decisions and not to have China, Russia and the US dictate our foreign policy. We are mature enough as a State to make our own independent decisions. We need to look at this arcane policy, which was basically brought in to pass the second Nice referendum. It makes no sense and it represents an abdication of responsibility for our own foreign policy.

Elections are not due in the Democratic Republic of the Congo until the middle of next year, but the EU should now ensure that proper monitoring will take place.

The crisis over airspace in the past two weeks needs to be discussed in detail, and decisions will have to be made on a co-ordinated EU approach. While there are sensitivities over people's entitlement to their airspace, a disaster such as this which crippled the airline industry is something that requires a stand to be taken by the EU. The first step is to bring it on to the agenda for next week's meeting.

I am disappointed that issues in the Middle East are not on the agenda, because we have a relatively short window of opportunity. President Obama has been in office for one year, and once we go past the second year, this type of issue does not become a priority for US Presidents. If George Mitchell and the US Presidency are to achieve anything, it will have to be achieved within the next 12 months or so. The whole issue seems to have stalled, and I think the EU should look to find mechanisms to get it moving again. The Council of Ministers will vote on Israel's proposed accession to the OECD at this meeting. If a decision of that nature is to be taken, then we should know about it because many reservations have been expressed here about the upgrade of the EU-Mediterranean association trade agreement with Israel. The Minister for Foreign Affairs stated as recently as last Friday that he was opposed to any upgrade, but membership of the OECD is effectively an upgrade because it constitutes membership of a preferential grouping of nations. Given the siege of Gaza, the continuation of settlements, and the theft of Irish citizens' passport identities by Israeli intelligence agents, Ireland should question the proposed accession of Israel to the OECD. Will the Government consider the matter and take a stance on it? I would like to hear that Ireland is raising the matter and that it asks that no action be taken by the EU until these issues are resolved. It would be sufficient for just one country to raise the issue.

I am glad Ireland has put the issue of Burma on the agenda because we in this country have taken a particular interest in it and, of course, Aung San Suu Kyi has the freedom of the city of Dublin. It seems the upcoming elections will not take place in any meaningful fashion. If the National League for Democracy, the party of Aung San Suu Kyi, does not contest the elections, it is likely we will be in a worse situation than pertains at present. Are efforts being made, particularly with the Chinese, whom I understand have considerable authority over the military junta, and the ASEAN group, to try to roll back the situation whereby the imprisonment of Aung San Suu Kyi is continuing and the military regime is taking total control? Can this be raised as part of the Irish contribution next week?

I am surprised there is so little about financial regulation and supervision. The only matter that seems to be on the agenda relates to some sort of crisis management for the future. I had thought the Jacques de Larosière report would be nearing completion at this point. It was discussed in detail at this committee and in the House and we seek the approval of all the member states to put together an overarching supervisory and regulatory framework that would link up with all the member states. The Minister, Deputy Brian Lenihan, in his remarks on the Central Bank Reform Bill, which is before the Dáil at present, said that what he is proposing would have to integrate with what the European Union is proposing. I would like to know how that is being dealt with.

Finally, I note that one of the five headlines for Euro 2020 is social inclusion and poverty. I would like clarification on this point. I understand the Commission recommended there would be a target of 25% reduction in poverty in the member states over the ten-year period of the new plan for 2010-20, and that this, if successful, would effectively take about 20 million people out of poverty from the 79 million to 80 million who are deemed to be in poverty in the EU at present. Can we take it that Ireland will support that 25% target and, instead of having some sort of generalised approach, that we will support a given target which will be also sought from the other member states? In many ways, Ireland, with the Combat Poverty Agency, for example, was to the forefront in bringing the whole issue of social inclusion and poverty onto the agenda of the EU. We should be to the forefront now in seeking to ensure a target such as this is agreed by all the member states.

While I do not want to go over the same questions, I endorse the contributions made by Deputies Timmins and Costello in regard to the volcanic ash crisis that affected Europe in the past six days. I hope the European Ministers will put together a co-ordinated approach in conjunction with the aviation authorities so that Europe is prepared if a crisis like this happens again. Obviously, in the coming months, the European Commission will be inundated with requests from airlines throughout Europe for compensation as a result of the six-day closure of airspace, the longest closure to date and much longer than the closure for the 9/11 incidents. They will put pressure on the EU in regard to the compensation which must be paid to passengers affected by these types of situations — the airlines are calling it an act of God. I want to endorse that.

Deputy Costello referred to Burma, in particular in regard to the forthcoming election, if it ever takes place. A referendum was approved in 2008 and the general election was step five of seven steps in what we were told was a pathway to democracy. The Burmese Government is now putting conditions on this election and on 10 March published five laws governing the conduct of the elections which could prohibit many of the candidates from standing, particularly if they are married to foreigners as in the case of Aung San Suu Kyi, who is a widower at this stage but was married to a foreigner. As a result, many of the opposition parties have decided not to contest the elections and are calling the election a sham.

Will the Minister comment with regard to the exploratory mission at official level which the EU has stated it intends to send to Burma? When dealing with a military junta, it is important to keep the dialogue in place. The EU has stated it will continue with sanctions for a further year or so but the question arises as to how effective the sanctions have been to date. It is far more important that we continue with the dialogue because the situation in Burma is quite bad at present, with many refugees fleeing the country into Thailand and China as a result of aggression and poverty. I am delighted this is on the agenda because the human rights problems in Burma are enormous. I would like to hear the Minster's view.

The Minister referred briefly to the situation in regard to northern Cyprus, which may be on the agenda together with the volcanic issue. Perhaps the Minister will encourage the new President of the Turkish Cypriot part of the island, Dr. Dervis Eroglu, to continue the dialogue his predecessor, President Talat, had with President Christofias of Cyprus. The new president is seen as a hardliner and it is important that any pre-agreed formula would be continued in the discussions, and that the European Commission and the meetings of the Ministers would encourage the new president to continue that dialogue in Cyprus.

Other issues have been raised by previous speakers. As it has been a long meeting, I will conclude.

I wish the Minister well at the meeting. I wish to raise four issues. Following the success in Northern Ireland, which to many people looked a hopeless case, we should never lose hope. However, despite all the support, time, effort and resources being put into Afghanistan, I cannot see any real evidence of progress being made there. I would like to hear the Minister's views in this regard. Is it time for us to change our strategy in Afghanistan? Are we wasting our time there?

The Minister stated that while northern Cyprus was not officially on the agenda, it might come up for discussion. What are the implications of last weekend's election results in northern Cyprus? The Minister might elaborate as to whether we are making progress.

While I appreciate it is not possible to cover the four corners of the world, will the Minister comment regarding the situation that is evolving in Thailand at present and the implications of the disturbances taking place there? Has this been given any great consideration at European level?

Finally, the Minister noted that the General Affairs Council would give the Ministers an opportunity to discuss the European strategy for jobs and growth. Very often, particularly at local level, we find that people do not recognise the importance or relevance of Europe. If there was one area in which we could bridge that gap, it would be that of employment. I do not like to use the word "strategy", but once the meeting is over, could the Minister of State explain to the thousands of Irish people who are anxiously and actively seeking employment what is being done at European level to provide much-needed jobs?

I thank the Minister of State for giving us such a wide briefing on what is happening around the world. I refer to an issue touched on by the Minister, namely, that of Sudan. The EU had a large election observation mission in Sudan and it was good news that the elections last week appeared to have gone fairly well. The concern is that difficulties might yet erupt. Darfur is still a major problem and, as the Minister mentioned, the President, Mr. al-Bashir, is still wanted by the International Criminal Court.

After the election in Kenya a little more than a year ago, the ICC moved to seek those who were suspected of inciting the violence that took place there. Are we happy that the European Union is able to stay out of what is happening in Sudan? There is talk of a divorce between north and south. I do not know how the problem of Darfur will be solved because it will stay with the north under Mr. al-Bashir. The difficulties there will come back to us in Europe. We will not be able to stay away from them.

With regard to the General Affairs Council, the Minister of State spoke very competently about the Lisbon agenda and the things we are seeking to achieve in that area, one of which is increased competitiveness. This depends to a large extent on innovation and science. I fear that Europe is losing ground in this area. I will mention one case, that of genetically modified organisms. There are now 25 countries and 40 million farmers around the world using GMOs, yet we are still taking a long time even to give permission. Last month, after 12 years, permission was given by the European Union for the first genetically modified crop. There are 17 other crops and 46 foods waiting for permission. We are behind the rest of the world.

It is a paradox that although genetically modified foods were invented in Europe, 99.9% of the production is occurring elsewhere. It is in the hands not just of Europe but of our Commissioner, Máire Geoghegan-Quinn, who is responsible for innovation and science. We cannot sit on our hands for too long and allow other parts of the world to take business from our citizens, our farmers and our industries. We must agree that we cannot waste any more time. We must do something to avoid being passed out by the rest of the world.

I welcome the Minister and the Minister of State and apologise for being delayed as I was chairing a session of the Seanad. I congratulate the Minister for Defence, Deputy Tony Killeen, on his appointment. He will be attending his first meeting on Sunday and Monday of next week. I hope he has a long stay in his post of at least two years and that he will be reappointed to the next Fianna Fáil Cabinet.

The Deputy will find that if we are out for a while we will not be long out.

I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Roche, whose performance in his portfolio of European affairs has been outstanding, particularly his work on the first and second Lisbon treaty referendums. We received a report from the Secretary General of the Department of Justice, Equality and Law Reform on the way in which the treaty has been enacted with regard to different issues in the treaty.

An issue of great concern is the continuing situation in the Middle East and Gaza in particular. This is something that must be on the top of the agenda for every foreign affairs meeting in Europe. It must be discussed, reported on and acted on. I note that Baroness Ashton visited that region. It is important that there be continuous monitoring of human rights violations in the area. The Palestinians are being crucified every day of the week. I cannot understand how a civilised country such as Israel could uphold the situation in the region. I call on the Minister of State to make this point clearly at the meeting.

With regard to Cyprus, will there be a discussion on the outcome of the election in the northern, Turkish-occupied area and its implications on the possibility of reunification? I understand the new President is much more hard-line on the issue. I hope the Minister of State can push that agenda further.

The presence of the Defence Forces on overseas projects is very important and I hope this role will continue because its members have been great ambassadors for Ireland. I take the opportunity of wishing the Chief of Staff, Lieutenant General Dermot Earley, a speedy recovery. He is an outstanding ambassador for Ireland and for Roscommon. I commend the Minister on the recent conferral of an award on General Earley, which was presented on behalf of the Minister and the Government by the Taoiseach.

As other members have raised the issue of the grounding of flights over the last two weeks, I ask the Minister of State to consider the compensation that is allowed for in such circumstances. This is an area that probably needs further regulation. The compensation was originally envisaged to apply to a short-term stay, but people are now stranded for many days. There is an extreme at one end in terms of airlines which are refusing to pay the compensation, but there are also fears, on the other side, that there will be excessive demands for compensation. We should try to find a good balance in this regard. We hear that people are being asked to be reasonable in their claims. I am conscious that a train passenger in Nice, for example, who cannot make his way back to Paris because of a train strike is just as discommoded as an aeroplane passenger in the same place; yet one receives compensation while the other does not. It is a matter of finding the correct balance.

I also ask the Minister of State to consider an issue that may come up at the meeting during the discussion of the terrible air crash that took place near Katyn, in which so many politicians and eminent people from Poland died. Is it not time a suitable memorial to reconciliation be placed in the Katyn forest? The Minister of State might support such a proposal if it were suggested. Katyn is a place that represents the worst of what happened in Europe, and now a terrible tragedy has brought everybody together.

The issue of the grounding of flights due to volcanic ash is topical and was raised by everybody. It is primarily a matter for transport Ministers. I agree with Deputy Timmins, who made the point that the most important thing is to err on the side of safety. We would be having a completely different discussion if there had been an imprudent response and if, God forbid, an aircraft with 200 or 300 people on it had crashed in the manner of the tragedy at Katyn. We must learn from this unique experience. Millions, if not tens of millions, of Europeans have been affected and there have been knock-on effects around the world. I was at the airport at 4.30 a.m. this morning to try to get someone back on standby to the United States.

There are a couple of points to be made about this matter. First, good humour was in evidence and second, the responses in general were good. However, a person made a point to me, on which Deputy Timmins also touched, which is that one of the most important things is that we should learn how to control expectations and how to control communications. Extensive discussion on this issue will be required. Senator Hanafin's concluding point is correct, and the issue of compensation, which is a requirement of air transport, also affects people who were discommoded when using other transport modes. Consequently, there is much to be discussed in this respect. However, I agree with the general points made that it is important to learn from this episode. There must be closer co-ordination and the compensation issue must be considered. Thankfully, Ryanair has recently made an interesting clarification in its position. It took many good decisions and hopefully a row will not brew in this regard.

Deputy Timmins and many other members raised the issue of the Middle East. The line running through all the contributions was to question what Europe can do if Israel continues to ignore international pressure. One can understand the view that Israel will hold the land it possesses. However, I agree with one of the latter speakers and with Deputy Costello, who also made the point previously, that it is hard to understand how a nation or people who have suffered so much, as has Israel has over the years, can be involved in inflicting so much harm and so much difficulty. Deputy Timmins made the point that imprisoning or holding an entire population to collective punishment for the activity of a small few is strongly reminiscent of odious policies of the past and it is a tragedy that any civilised country should be so involved. My personal view and that of the Government is that we will continue to press in this regard. Although we fully appreciate that Israel and its people have the right to live in peace, as we learned on this island, the best way to establish peace is through dialogue. Peace has never been established from the end of a gun.

Deputy Timmins raised the issue of the Schengen Agreement, on which the Minister and I have had discussions. Work on Schengen is ongoing and for some time I have held the strong view, which is shared by a number of members, that were Ireland to find some way to participate in the Schengen Agreement, it would be highly worthwhile. I acknowledge there are some difficulties on this island but it often has struck me that if the entire island of Ireland could become part of the Schengen area, it would be mutually advantageous to people in both the Six Counties and the Republic. It appears as though ways forward in this regard should be examined.

The issue of Sudan was mentioned and Deputy Timmins asked whether the triple lock should be reconsidered. This is a debate that will continue for some time and which arose during the second Nice and both Lisbon referendum campaigns. I do not agree that we are ready to simply abandon the triple lock. A debate with the public was held on this subject in which the continuation of the triple lock was put to the fore. However, I respect that views exist other than those I hold in this regard. Deputy Costello also touched on the Middle East and mentioned how the process has been stalled. I share the view he mentioned that, to put it mildly, it is a disappointment that they have stalled. Consequently, strong pressure comes on the American Administration to press forward in this regard. For as long as Israel has the seemingly unquestioning support of a strong ally and looking across the political spectrum of Israel, it does not appear as though there is much willingness to go forward.

Although Israel's accession to the OECD was mentioned by Deputy Costello, it is not an issue for the meeting of the Foreign Affairs Council next Monday. However, on the general point he made regarding the upgrading of the European Union-Israel relationship via the Euro-Mediterranean Partnership, the position of the Minister, Deputy Martin, has been clear and unequivocal and I share his view.

Deputy Costello also asked a question about the de Larosière report, which is a fine report. Effectively, it can be summarised as suggesting there should be a return to common sense and fairly traditional old views in banking, which worked for a long time. They worked from the time of the Medicis right up until relatively recently when high-fliers got into the banking system and decided to destroy it. Although it is not an issue that will come before us, it is due to revert to the EU at the June European Council, before which it also will be discussed at ECOFIN. I have already mentioned Schengen.

Deputy Costello and others also raised the question of Burma and the position in respect of the new electoral laws. The so-called State Peace and Development Council there has published a series of laws, which, as the Deputy noted, are completely unacceptable and the European Union must continue with pressure in this regard. The European Union has raised the issue with ASEAN and during the Irish Presidency I raised the moral responsibility of the other ASEAN members at an ASEAN meeting. It must be stated that sadly, the European view about Burma is not shared across the ASEAN group of countries. Not only China but other countries there appear to take a highly equivocal view and I believe we must continue the pressure on that issue.

In the context of the Euro 2020 strategy and specifically the issue of social inclusion, Deputy Costello will be aware that much discussion has taken place on the sole use of what is called the "at risk of poverty" target. This is a moving target that does not satisfy quite a number of member states. Nationally, Ireland uses a composite measure of consistent poverty, which includes the "at risk of poverty" measure, as well as the measure of basic deprivation, and the Government believes the consistent poverty measure provides a more comprehensive picture of the true levels of poverty. It also provides a measurement that in many ways is more objective than the other. However, much intensive work will go on over the period. There are many differences on this issue but I believe they will be resolved.

Another issue that was raised by a number of members is that of northern Cyprus and the question that arises therefrom. Members will be aware that the general view on the result of the recent election in that region is that the incumbent was defeated by someone who takes a more radical view. I visited Turkey the week before last with the political group to which my party is assigned and had lengthy discussions with various members of the Turkish Administration that highlighted the ongoing concerns. I refer in particular to issues such as how the opening of ports and so on should be dealt with. While this is some distance away, I came away from those discussions with a much more positive view than I had when entering into them. It appears as though there are some highly progressive elements within the Turkish Government and I was more than pleasantly surprised by a willingness to discuss issues, some of which were highly sensitive, in an open way.

Deputy Seán Power raised an interesting question on the Euro 2020 strategy. First and foremost, the Deputy will be aware that I have railed against the title, "EU 2020", which is jargonistic and means nothing. If one wishes to give the people of Europe a sense that the European Union is engaged in issues of real concern, such as the fact that 450,000 people in Ireland are out of work, the outside of the tin must state what it does in the tin. The discussion in this regard must be dejargonised, which I acknowledge to be a bit of jargon itself. There will be close co-operation between the European Parliament, the other European Union institutions, social partners and national parliaments, as well as other stakeholders, with regard to the evolution of the policy for growth and jobs. This is the way it should be discussed.

The Council has asked the European Council to establish a task force with representatives from member states to present the former before the end of this year with the measures necessary to reach the objective of improved crisis resolution and difficulty resolution. A member of the committee was right in that if Europe does not learn to engage more actively and in less jargon-ridden language with its citizens, the project could stumble or even fail. We are the country in which this concern is probably better appreciated than it is in any other member state. The strategy for jobs and growth is critical in those terms. Describing it for what it is would be important.

I wish to move on to an important point on innovation made by Senator Quinn. Innovation will be very much a part of the strategy for jobs and growth. There is a wide variety of views on the issue of GM and not everyone shares the same opinion, given the subject's distinct taboo nature. However, it would be wrong to suggest Europe has been lagging behind, as innovation will be to the fore.

Senator Quinn also raised the question of Sudan and the arrest warrant against President Bashir. Ireland is a party to the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court, ICC, and is obliged to arrest President Bashir should he happen to enter this country. Thankfully, he has not done so, but this imposition also applies to other member states. As to the question of should or will he be tried, anyone who is guilty or suspected of genocidal activities should be tried. Whether it will occur is another day's work.

Senator Leyden was complimentary to the Minister, Deputy Killeen, and myself. The Minister deserves it more than I do. The Senator mentioned that the Middle East must be kept on the agenda, which it is. The only force that will persuade logic is moral suasion. I have no ill will towards Israel as a nation and I fully appreciate the suffering of its people, particularly during the horrific 1930s and 1940s. However, one cannot carry this forward and impose it on others. I agree that Gaza is an important issue. I have mentioned the triple lock and Deputy Timmins' opinion in that regard.

Reverting to the issue of responsibility raised by Deputy Costello, Burma's neighbours have a considerable responsibility. I am not just referring to China, but to other of its geographical and trading neighbours in the region. It is time they stepped up to the bench. If one understands the historic relationship between that portion of Asia and Europe, as we all do, one knows that it is not always helpful if the prodding comes from Europe. It would be better for moral persuasion and pressure to come from other countries in the neighbourhood.

This possibly covers the main areas. If there are any supplementary questions, I would be delighted to have them.

Is the deteriorating situation in Greece likely to appear on the agenda and will there be decisions? The last time the Government made a decision to participate in a particular approach — what was effectively a bail-out by the EU — and to commit a certain amount of its money, we were not aware of it beforehand. Is the Greek situation likely to be put on the agenda as an emergency measure?

First, that matter is discussed within the euro group. Second, the borrowing to be done by Ireland will be at a rate that will give us a slight advantage, a margin of a certain percentage in the event of all of the borrowing being drawn down. Some legislative response to the issue from the Minister for Finance is likely. There has been some equivocation as to how much Greece will need to draw down.

The fact that the euro group has shown a willingness to respond to protect the euro is important in preventing speculation against Greece. It is certain that, were one country to come under the type of pressure that hedge funds could easily bring, it could damage the whole of the euro project. There has been a concerted, subtle and well-focused response from the euro group. The issue is being discussed continually, including sometimes on the margins of general affairs Council meetings if not at the meetings themselves. It is the primary issue within discussions of the euro group, which is attached to ECOFIN.

Two brief questions were referred to me, one of which was on the triple lock. That has been addressed by the Minister of State, Deputy Roche. We should remember that two parts of the triple lock are internal, namely, the Government and Oireachtas decisions. To be fair, the failure in respect of Chad is not on the part of the Security Council. Rather, the context is the agreement with the Chadian authorities.

Senator Leyden asked about overseas missions. We have made a commitment of 850 personnel, a number within which there is spare capacity. We will consider any UN proposals in the context of Government and Oireachtas decisions.

This committee's discussion was well represented. As the Chairman knows, I take a personal interest in the initiative. To the committee's credit, it was one of the first committees within any national parliament to give the initiative a detailed consideration. The questions of whether to have a 0.2% national figure, how to prevent fraud and how to relate the initiative to electoral registers, headline issues discussed by this committee, were reflected and responded to in subsequent documents. The committee has had a real input.

The Minister of State's point is well made. Committee members have often referred to the initiative and the need to be consulted and to consult. I compliment the Minister, the Minister of State and their colleagues for the way in which they consulted the committee and took our suggestions on board. Likewise, I compliment members for taking the time to make their submissions and examine every item of the documentation with a particular regard for the implications for our society at a social, economic, cultural or whatever level. I thank the Minister, the Minister of State and their departmental colleagues for being with us.