Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 5 Mar 2024

Our hospitals are under massive pressure. Record waiting lists, a year-round trolley crisis and embedded problems in recruitment and retention mean the health service is creaking at the seams. Nowhere is this pressure more acutely felt than at University Hospital Limerick. Yesterday, there were 143 patients on trolleys at the hospital. Today, people are being urged to avoid the emergency department. Scheduled surgeries at the hospital have been deferred while staff struggle to deal with the high levels of overcrowding. Of course this is nothing new for the people of Limerick or the wider region. Last month an incredible 2,247 people were treated on trolleys at University Hospital Limerick. That is the highest number on record for any hospital for any month, ever. Sadly, a state of permanent and everyday crisis is now the norm at University Hospital Limerick, where the full capacity protocols are in almost perpetual operation. Elderly patients, children and vulnerable people are treated on trolleys in dangerous conditions. It is treatment without privacy and without dignity. My colleague Deputy Quinlivan recently had to intervene for a 71-year-old stroke patient who was on a trolley for eight days at University Hospital Limerick. We can only imagine the distress of that patient and their poor family as they looked on feeling helpless.

The emergency department at University Hospital Limerick is the only emergency department servicing the population of 400,000 people in the region. The crisis in the hospital did not happen by accident. It is a direct result of decisions taken by successive governments. The closure of emergency departments at Nenagh and Ennis, the refusal to properly fund GP and community health services and the failure to develop the required capacity at the hospital have all heaped unsustainable pressure on heroic front-line staff who do incredible work in dire circumstances. There are significant staffing gaps in the hospital. There is an urgent need to fill non-consultant doctor posts and to immediately increase nursing and medical staff in the emergency department.

Tá an róphlódú contúirteach in Ospidéal na hOllscoile, Luimneach, imithe ar fad ó smacht. Ní mór don Rialtas gníomh éigeandála a dhéanamh láithreach. Without urgent action to build capacity at University Hospital Limerick, the situation will get even worse and that is not acceptable.

We are short 1,000 beds in hospitals across the State and yet despite appalling overcrowding at University Hospital Limerick and throughout our hospital network, the Government refuses to fund the 1,500 rapid-build beds that were promised on three separate occasions last year. Worse still, the Government has put in place a recruitment freeze, which only adds to the crisis. The people of Limerick and the mid-west deserve much better. What emergency action will the Taoiseach now take to deal with the worsening crisis at University Hospital Limerick? Will he now fund the promised 1,500 rapid-build beds and roll them into the system? Will he end the disastrous recruitment embargo?

First, I want to acknowledge that our hospitals all around the country are under a lot of pressure. That is correct. It is driven in part by rising population, increasing frailty, more older people and the availability of more treatments. I know that patients are experiencing conditions in some parts of the country that they should not have to experience. I know that many staff are working under enormous pressure at the moment. We offer them our thanks from this House.

As is almost always the case every Tuesday and Wednesday, however, I have to correct some misinformation the Deputy stated in her question. Increasingly, as is the case with some international politicians, media outlets need to tag on the term "without evidence" or "without proof" to most of what the Deputy says. Increasingly, she says things that are misinformation and that gets broadcast on the news, and it is never stated that it is misinformation. It is important that media outlets take account of that.

First of all, she said our waiting lists are at a record high. They are not. Waiting lists have fallen now for two full years in a row and this will be the third year in which waiting lists in Ireland fall. We have more beds. We have had more than 1,000 extra beds since this Government was formed, including acute day beds and also community beds. Far from there being a recruitment embargo, we have seen a big increase in recruitment. We have never had more people working in our public health service than is the case now. We had 8,000 more staff hired last year alone. The HSE can hire another 2,000 to 3,000 staff this year. We had confirmation today that almost 2,000 consultants have signed the new Sláintecare contract, which is approximately 44%, and there are more every day, which is encouraging. In fact, taking doctors alone, whereas we used to be below the OECD average in terms of doctors per head, we now have four doctors per 1,000 population. That is more than Australia, the US, France and many other countries. What the Deputy is saying often constitutes misinformation. It is important I say that so people know that, and it needs to be reported on as well in my view.

With regard to overcrowding in our hospitals, we have approximately 390 patients this morning waiting for a bed. That is a lot; it is too many. It is lower than we would typically see at this time of year compared to recent previous years. It is important to say that most of those patients will be in a bed by this evening. In some hospitals, there are no patients on trolleys at all, including Waterford and Tullamore, to give just two examples. As we all know, there is a particular challenge in Limerick. As I always say, what is required to eliminate hospital overcrowding are adequate resources and capacity, good clinical leadership and strong management. A comprehensive approach also has to be taken. It is not just about UHL, which I acknowledge. It is also about St. John's Hospital, Ennis Hospital, Nenagh Hospital and community services too. We are making significant investments in the hospital. The budget for the hospital increased by 45% in just the past four years. Some 150 extra beds have been opened across the group, 98 of which have been in UHL since 2020. Staff numbers have increased by more than 1,000 under this Government from 2,800 to 3,800. That includes 140 more doctors, 45 more consultants, 340 more nurses and midwives and 84 more health and social care professionals. We are currently building a new block, which will provide 98 additional beds next year, and we are working on a further additional block to be added after that.

The Taoiseach's position seems to be that there is actually no problem at University Hospital Limerick.

He has just recounted for me, in his view, a huge record of success and adequate investment. That seems to be his position. The reality on the ground, of course, is very different. I recounted for him the story of 71-year-old stroke patient who was on a trolley for eight days. The Taoiseach has heard before in the Chamber other stories of people left in the most atrocious and distressing of circumstances. The problem is very real. It is related to bed capacity, staffing levels and the embargo or staff control framework that is in action. If you talk to anybody who is a patient at the hospital, who has a loved one relying on services from that hospital or who works in the hospital, they will tell you that is the case. It is very clear that additional bed capacity is needed within the hospital network as a matter of urgency. I will put my question to the Taoiseach again. Some 1,500 rapid-build beds have been promised on three separate occasions. They have not been delivered. When will they be delivered and how will he face up to the crisis that is rolling out day in, day out, at University Hospital Limerick?

-----analysed and reported on a little bit more. The problems that are occurring in the emergency department in University Hospital Limerick are very real. Everyone who has visited there knows that. I have been in the old and new emergency departments and have visited the hospital many times, as has every TD and Senator from the region. The Deputy knows that too. It is about capacity, clinical leadership, management and taking a comprehensive approach-----

-----that says it is about more than the hospital itself, as it involves the other hospitals in the region and community services too. What have we done about it? Since this Government was formed, there are 1,000 more staff in UHL, there has been a 45% increase in budget and there are an additional 98 beds. We are currently constructing a new ward block of 96 beds which will be complete by quarter 1 of next year, and we are planning for a further 96 beds-----

Once again, the RTÉ soap opera is distracting vital attention from the disastrous situation facing those who are at the mercy of our broken housing system. Right now, 13,531 people are recorded as homeless, including more than 4,000 children, and 18,000 homes are being advertised for short lets on Airbnb, while just 2,000 are available on Daft.ie for longer-term rents. Rents are skyrocketing far in excess of the legal limits under rent pressure zone legislation. Prospective home buyers in Dublin now need, on average, a combined salary of €127,000, far more than median incomes in Ireland. The cost to so many and to our society of this omnishambles cannot be overstated.

I recently spoke to and heard from a man in his 60s who has been on the housing list for decades. He was taken off the list after he got married because his family income had risen over the limit by just €100. Subsequently, his spouse had to stop working to provide care for a family member and they went back on the list. After some difficulty, today they are renting with the housing assistance payment. This man, who is now retired, has been told by a council official that he will not get a home for more than 12 years. In his own words, he believes he will be dead before they get a place. He and his partner remain in fear of eviction. They have no housing security into older age. His is just one story but it is an important one to tell because his experience underscores the desperate need for action and shows the turmoil caused by the Government's broken housing model.

Tomorrow morning, there is a chance for change. This House will debate a Labour Party motion which sets out a clear plan to change policy and approach and to ensure delivery of homes to buy and stronger protection for those renting.

A change of approach is badly needed. The Government's policies are lacking, its reactions are slow and its ambition is too low. Even the plans the Government has in place are just not working; they are seriously wanting.

This morning, I reviewed the capital that went unspent by the Government in 2023 on housing. Something struck me immediately. Once again, the Minister for housing, Deputy Darragh O'Brien, did not spend his capital budget. In fact, he underspent by €141 million. Based on average construction costs, with that money, the Department could have delivered more than 450 extra homes last year. Spending on the secure tenancies affordable rental scheme also fell short by €20 million, or approximately 100 extra cost-rental homes which could have been delivered. There were similar underspends in respect of urban renewal, regeneration and public housing.

The Government's policies and its overreliance on the private sector mean that it is incapable of delivering the homes we need. It seems that the Government is not spending enough, even on the schemes that are in place.

What is the Government doing for renters, such as, for example, older people who are trapped in insecurity into old age? What is it doing to tackle the disproportionate levels of short-term lettings and to bring Airbnb properties back into the housing market. Why has the Minister for housing consistently failed to spend his capital budget each year since he took office, resulting in the failure to deliver so many homes that could otherwise have been supplied?

Gabhaim buíochas leis an Teachta as a ceist. Housing for All is working. We are building more homes than at any point since 2008 and we are building more social housing than at any point since the 1970s. Tá Tithíocht do Chách ag obair. Tá níos mó tithe á dtógáil againn ná ag aon phointe ó 2008. Tá níos mó tithe sóisialta á dtógáil againn ná ag aon phointe ó na 1960idí.

Every week, 500 people are drawing down their first ever mortgages. That is the most since 2007. Tá 500 duine ag ceannach a gcéad teach gach seachtain. Is é sin an líon is mó ó 2007. Tá muid ag cur cíosa mhíosúil ar ais i bpócaí daoine tríd an chreidmheas cánach cíosa - €750 do dhaoine aonair, €1,500 do lánúin nó os cionn €2,000 do thriúr ag roinnt. We are putting a month's rent back in people's pockets through the rent tax credit, which is €750 for an individual, €1,500 for a couple and more than €2,000 for three people who are sharing.

The Land Development Agency, LDA, is making progress and is building affordable homes to rent and buy all over Ireland. Despite this progress affordable homes to rent and buy all over Ireland. Despite this progress, we know change is not coming quickly enough. As a result, we will publish new, more ambitious targets for homebuilding. I promise we will leave no stone unturned. Tá dul chun cinn á dhéanamh ag an LDA anois. Tá sé ag tógáil tithe inacmhainne le ligean ar cíos nó le ceannach ar fud na hÉireann. D'ainneoin an dul chun cinn seo, tá a fhios agam nach bhfuil sé ag teacht tapa go leor. Mar sin, foilseoidh muid spriocanna nua níos uaillmhianaí maidir le tógáil tithe agus geallaim nach bhfágfaidh muid cloch gan chasadh.

In the context of the Labour Party motion that will be debated in the House this week, the Cabinet gave it consideration today. We have decided not to oppose it and to allow it to pass. We do not agree with all aspects of the motion but we agree with the broad thrust of it. The motion recommends we should increase our housing targets to 50,000 per year. We do not necessarily think that is achievable this year or next, but we do think it is achievable. We think that is an ambition we can share. The motion calls for the tenant in situ scheme to be scaled up. That scheme has been a big success. We agree it should be scaled up in order that we can buy properties from landlords who are leaving the market and allowing HAP tenants to become regular social housing tenants. The motion expresses frustration at how long it is taking to get EU clearance for the changes we want to make in respect of short-term lets in order to restrict them in our cities where demand for housing is so great.

With regard to the Department of housing there has not been an underspend this year. The Minister, Deputy Darragh O'Brien, was able to move funding from one area to another, but all within the housing and local government remit. That is not unusual. For example, the Department is using some funding to reduce development levies to make the cost of building lower.

I welcome the news the Government will not be opposing the Labour Party motion. That is welcome. That is constructive. However, not putting down a Government countermotion will be an empty gesture if there is no movement or delivery and no attempt to implement the important measures we have proposed. I agree with the Taoiseach when he says that change is not coming quickly enough.

It is good to hear Government acknowledge that, but the Taoiseach is acknowledging it as if he were a bystander. He is the Taoiseach. He is Taoiseach of a Government that has been in office for four years and, yet, he is still saying that changes are not coming quickly enough. He is still promising the publication of new, more ambitious targets, but it is months since he acknowledged that the targets in Housing for All are simply too low.

I fundamentally disagree with the Taoiseach, as would most people in the country, when he says that Housing for All is working. It is patently not working. Níl sé ag obair. It is simply not working for renters, like the man I heard from who is in his 60s and who is in fear of eviction. That man has no prospect of a secure home of his own. Housing for All is not working for all of those people who cannot find affordable places to rent and who are deeply frustrated when they see the number of short-term lettings advertised on platforms like Airbnb.

Here is a direct question, and it is in the Labour Party's motion: what is the Government going to do to regulate short-term lettings? It is not good enough to simply sit back and wait to see what happens at EU level. What is the Government doing creatively to tackle and regulate the over-preponderance of short-term lettings in our housing market?

The context in which we are dealing with the housing crisis is one of a rapidly-rising population and changing demographics. Households are smaller and, as a result, we require more houses and apartments. We are running up an escalator that is coming down at us quite fast, but we are making progress. More than 30,000 new homes were built last year, the highest number since 2008. We will build even more this year. There are some 500 first-time buyers every week drawing down their first mortgages. We have not seen that since the Celtic tiger period. There is more social housing being built than at any point in the 1970s. That housing is very much needed. The LDA is starting to produce results, building cost-rental and affordable homes for purchase all over this city and in other parts of the country. We want to restrict short-term letting significantly, not in tourist areas but in our cities, where there is enormous demand for housing. That is currently being held up by the European Commission but it is something we are pursuing.

I want to talk to the Taoiseach about his planned visit to the United States next week. The World Health Organization was unable to visit hospitals in Gaza in November, December, January and part of February. Only recently has it been able to restart its work in this regard. To date, it has discovered that 15 children starved to death in those hospitals. The United Nations tells us that 500,000 people in Gaza are just one step away from starvation. Hundreds of those people gathered in Gaza city last Thursday morning before dawn. As they moved towards aid trucks that were carrying flour, they were gunned down by Israeli soldiers. Some 115 people died and more than 700 were injured. It was a massacre. The Israel Defense Forces, IDF, said that the majority were killed in a stampede and died under the wheels of the aid trucks, but UN observers who saw the dead bodies said that many of them were riddled with bullet holes. Where did the IDF get those guns and bullets? Many of them most likely came from the United States.

Between 7 October and Christmas Day, 230 cargo planes and 20 cargo ships full of weapons arrived in Israel from the US. Not satisfied with that, President Biden has included $14 billion worth of military aid for Israel in the package he is trying to get through the House of Representatives. This is nearly four times the amount of such aid the US sends Israel in an average year. While it is true that the Biden Administration is pushing for a six-week pause in the fighting, there is no question but that Biden has armed and financed a campaign that the International Court of Justice believes worthy of investigation as possible genocide. It is clear that a ground invasion of Rafah, probably the bloodiest event of the Israeli campaign, would be conducted in large measure with US weapons and financed to a significant degree by US cash.

In not much more than a week's time, the Taoiseach plans to get on a plane, travel to the US Capitol and join Joe Biden in a day of celebration. He plans to give the latter a bowl of shamrock on behalf of the Irish people. He plans to pose, no doubt, for photographs with a man who has armed and financed mass murder.

That is the truth of it. I believe that is wrong. I am confident in saying that large numbers of people on this island also think it is wrong.

More than 30 million people in the US claim Irish descent. Many of their ancestors fled the kind of famine conditions now beginning to appear in Gaza. This is an election year in the US. The Taoiseach has the opportunity to exert some real pressure here. He should tell Biden that there will be no shamrock while there is not a total ceasefire and an end to the bloody occupation. Sometimes you have to stand up and do the right thing. I would like the Taoiseach to address these issues, because this trip is now just over a week away.

I thank the Deputy. I take this opportunity to reiterate the Government's call for an immediate ceasefire in the war between Israel and Hamas in Gaza. This will allow the hostages to be released, the killing to stop and much-needed food and medicine to get into the Gaza Strip, where civilians are in a very desperate and unimaginable situation. We believe that a humanitarian ceasefire for a number of weeks can lead to a permanent ceasefire and to the resumption of talks on a final status solution.

I welcome the call made by US Vice President Kamala Harris earlier in the week for a humanitarian ceasefire to be observed by Israel and Hamas. This represents a welcome shift in the position of the US. I hope we will see this further elaborated on in the days and weeks ahead.

We are working closely with our European and Arab partners to build momentum for peace efforts. We hope that the ongoing intensive talks between the US, Israel, Qatar and Egypt will lead to a ceasefire. We firmly believe that a military escalation in Rafah, where almost 1.5 million people are sheltering in desperate conditions, would be catastrophic and should not happen. I share the Deputy's horror at the killing of civilians queueing up to access aid. It is important that there be a full, independent investigation and that those responsible be held to account. The UN report on the events of 7 October published in recent days confirmed that it is plausible that Hamas engaged in sexual violence and, indeed, gang rape as part of its attack on Israel. I hope that those who have not yet condemned Hamas for its actions on 7 October will take the opportunity to do so.

On my visit to the White House, which will occur next week, I do not believe in boycotts. That has never been the approach I have taken to international affairs. The visit will present an opportunity to speak to leaders in the US on Capitol Hill and also to President Biden and Vice President Harris. Ireland is one of 200 countries in the world. Not many countries are guaranteed a meeting once a year with the US. It would be a big mistake for us to boycott that and to lose the important engagement that has occurred every year since the 1980s. However, I will use the opportunity - in private, in the Oval Office and in public in the White House - to make clear how the Irish people feel about the situation in Gaza and how we believe the US needs to adopt an approach that will help to bring about a peace settlement in the region.

Before I ask my supplementary question, I will just say that the points I am going to make apply to the Taoiseach and the representatives of the Government. They also apply to all parties in this House, however. In our view, no party in this House should attend a celebration with Joe Biden while this Israeli terror campaign is being waged. That applies to Sinn Féin as much as it applies to Fine Gael, Fianna Fáil and the Green Party.

The Taoiseach mentioned Rafah, a place with a swelling population of 1.5 million people, a majority of whom are trying to survive in tents. There may be a six-week pause announced before the Taoiseach travels to the US, but there may not be. There could be an Israeli ground assault on Rafah. Is the Taoiseach seriously saying that if bombs are raining down from the sky on the people of Rafah in their tents and if the noise and fury of a ground invasion is taking place outside those tents, that he will go to Washington and present a bowl of shamrock on behalf of the Irish people to the man who is more responsible than anyone else on the planet for arming and financing the military force involved?

Is the Taoiseach seriously saying that? Would he not even for a moment reconsider his position on that?

The Deputy seems to be a little bit obsessed with the bowl of shamrock, which takes about 20 seconds. The real opportunity is in the sit-down meeting in the Oval Office with President Biden and his team. There is also the opportunity to speak publicly in the White House before guests of the President, as well as some from the Irish embassy. That is the opportunity I will take to reaffirm the importance of our relationship with the US on economic, political and cultural levels. I will also say there are issues on which we disagree, and I will take the opportunity to do so in private and in public. It would be a mistake for any Irish Government to boycott those events. Once that slot is lost, it would be easily transferred to another country, and it might never return again. We would diminish our influence in the world if we refused to meet people and refused to engage with them, including and particularly our allies and friends, such as the US.

Before I finish up, and I will not press the Deputy on this again, nor will I press him on this later during Taoiseach’s Questions, there are a small number of Deputies in this House who have not unequivocally condemned the Hamas attack on 7 October. I again invite the Deputy, in light of the UN report, which found evidence of sexual violence-----

I have raised the issue of our bail laws in this House several times and I feel compelled to do so once again today. That is because, according to the latest figures I have received from the CSO, more than 275,000 crimes have been committed in this country in the past ten years by people who were out on bail, having been charged with other offences. These crimes range from murders to theft, and sexual offences to burglary, and the situation is getting worse.

In 2022, for which statistics have only recently become available, almost 32,500 crimes were committed by offenders while they were out on bail. That is a staggering 41% increase on the total that was recorded ten years previously, and it amounts to approximately 90 crimes every single day of the year.

In the past decade, this country has seen a doubling in the incidents of some crimes committed by people out on bail, including attempts and threats of murder and assaults, drunk driving and drug offences. We have also suffered substantial increases in public order offences, which are up by 75%. Theft is up by 72%, damage to property is up by 53%, and burglary is up by 50% by these people.

Over that ten-year period, recorded crime incidents where at least one offender was on bail included 85 homicides, 268 sexual offences, more than 10,000 attempts of or threats of murder and assaults, 71,000 thefts, 57,000 public order offences, 26,000 drug offences, 14,000 burglaries and many more other offences, some of which are extremely serious breaches of the law. One in every six crimes committed in this country is now being perpetrated by somebody who is already being charged with another offence and who has been granted bail to roam the streets to prey on others.

Surely, at this point, we need to radically reform our bail system. Among those statistics I have outlined, the Taoiseach can be sure that there are many hardened career criminals with hundreds of convictions under their belts who are being allowed to carry on ruining the lives of others. They know that every time they are caught, they will be let out on bail until their case is heard. When will this Government wake up to reality and seriously tackle the problem of bail being granted to people who are very often serious, serial offenders? As the figures show, they have no hesitation in leaving the courthouse and resuming their life of crime straight away. Will the Taoiseach strengthen the laws governing the granting of bail so that the law-abiding people of Ireland are protected from these criminals?

I thank the Deputy for again raising this important issue in the House. Above all, I want people to be safe and feel safe in their homes and on our streets.

We are responding with more gardaí, better equipment for our gardaí and stronger laws, more judges and more places in our prisons. The Garda budget has never been higher, at €2.3 billion a year. That is up 25% in four years. We are building stronger, safer communities. Ba mhaith liom go mbeadh daoine sábháilte agus go mothóidís sábháilte ina dtithe agus ar na sráideanna. Mar sin, táimid ag freagairt le níos mó gardaí, trealamh níos fearr dár ngardaí, dlíthe níos láidre, níos mó breithiúna agus níos mó spáis i bpríosún. Ní raibh buiséad an Gharda Síochána níos airde riamh agus é suas 25% i gceithre bliana. Táimid ag tógáil pobail níos láidre agus níos sábháilte.

I do understand the frustration that people feel with regard to recidivism and repeat offenders. We have to make sure our laws are as tough as they can be while acknowledging the fact that over 70% of people who engage with the criminal justice system have mental health issues or addiction challenges. The law in relation to bail is comprehensive and has been strengthened on a number of occasions over recent years, most recently in 2017 under the then Minister, Frances Fitzgerald. As the Deputy is aware, bail legislation must be built around the constitutional presumption that an accused person is innocent until proven guilty. The presumption of innocence is a cornerstone of our legal system and a fundamental principle behind the right to a fair trial. The fact that somebody may have been guilty in the past does not mean they are guilty now.

Restricting a person's liberty prior to trial is a very serious matter. Judges are independent in the exercise of their judicial functions and the decision to grant or refuse bail in a particular case is solely a matter for the judge concerned. Among the matters the court can have regard to when deciding whether to refuse bail is persistent, serious offending by an applicant and, in specific circumstances, the nature and likelihood of any danger to a person or to the community from granting bail. The Bail Act of 1997, which followed the 1996 referendum, enables courts to refuse bail for a person charged with a serious offence to prevent the risk of another serious offence being committed while on bail. Since then, the bail laws have been further strengthened, specifically by the Criminal Justice Act 2007; the Criminal Justice (Burglary of Dwellings) Act 2015; and the Criminal Justice Act 2017.

Eighty-five murders have been committed by people out on bail over recent years. I appreciate that some efforts have been made over the years to strengthen the bail laws but the figures speak for themselves. More than 32,000 crimes a year are now being committed by people who had been charged with other offences and are out on bail. More often than not, their court appearances are being totally funded by the taxpayers of this country, who have forked out millions to pay for free legal aid. Free legal aid in criminal cases is costing us more than €76 million a year. That has gone up steadily from €64 million in the past five years. In 2022, the courts issued more than 81,000 criminal legal aid certificates, again a big jump on the 72,000 total for the five years previously. In that five-year period, the financial payout has been €342 million of the Irish taxpayers' money where these criminals have contributed absolutely nothing. They do not have to make any contribution towards the cost of their defence no matter how many times they have appeared in court. The current system is not doing its job in deterring criminals from offending again. Much stronger action needs to be taken and a major reform of our bail laws is urgently needed.

I thank the Deputy. In our engagement with An Garda Síochána, it advised us that the State's amended bail laws have proven to be effective. While there is no immediate proposal to amend the State's bail laws further, we will keep them under review. Certainly, if the Garda advises and asks us to make further reforms to our bail laws, we will give that detailed consideration. Certainly, in an appropriate way in our engagement with the Judiciary, we can say to them that it is important that they honour their responsibilities as well when it comes to making the right decisions on who is refused bail and who is not.

In terms of legal aid, there are reforms currently under way being led by the Minister for Justice, Deputy McEntee. She is giving examination to a suggestion the Deputy made previously, that perhaps the cost of legal aid could be recouped from recidivists after they are found guilty.

We cannot presume people who have been accused are guilty and refuse them legal aid, even if they have committed a crime in the past. However, if someone who is found guilty of recidivism received legal aid, there is perhaps a possibility of recouping some of it. It may not have much practical effect where a criminal does not have any means, but some of them do have means, quite frankly, and it would send a message that would be heard. The Minister, Deputy McEntee, has it under consideration.