Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 21 Feb 2024

I welcome the opportunity to raise the issue of reasonable accommodations for State exams. There are obviously a large number of students who have recently arrived to Ireland. They have rightly been encouraged to engage in our education system. Many of these students fall into the category of learners of English as an additional language, EAL. I think primarily of students from Ukraine, but also those who recently arrived from other places and whose level of English would not be sufficient to succeed in the State exam environment without additional support. The State Examinations Commission allows the use of an approved dictionary during the exam. Students in many second level schools completed the junior certificate and leaving certificate mock exams prior the February mid-term break. The experience is daunting enough for many students. How daunting must it be for someone with a beginner level of English?

I was contacted by a teacher from Coláiste Bríde in Enniscorthy, County Wexford - with which the Minister of State is probably familiar - who described it as a humiliating experience for the students involved. She is right. Let us think through the practical, or maybe more impractical, process that has to be followed to answer a leaving certificate examination using a dictionary. Some students will have to translate every word of the question, every word of the comprehension and every word of the case study in order to understand what is required. If they gain an understanding of the question, they then have to repeat the same painstaking process of using the dictionary to translate every word of their answer. It is an impossible task. The dictionary is utterly useless for these students. There are so many other options available to help these students. We need to move away from supplying dictionaries to a more tech-savvy and user-friendly way of helping students with the language barrier.

The students in question will have prior knowledge of many different subjects from their education in their previous countries of residence, but when they arrive here, the system is making matters unnecessarily difficult. Circumstances are already difficult enough for people fleeing war. If we can remove the language barrier, we can properly assess their knowledge and allow them to proceed within the Irish education system and have a positive experience. The Department of Education recognises the need for additional support in schools for these students. Special hours are given to EAL support, which many schools have availed of. However, it seems to me that the supports are removed once it comes to sitting the exam. This makes absolutely no sense.

I commend all of those in County Wexford who are involved in EAL support. I mentioned Coláiste Bríde. I have also been contacted by St. Mary's CBS in Enniscorthy and Ramsgrange Community School, of which I am a former pupil. I know that across the 23 secondary schools in County Wexford great efforts are being made regarding English as an additional language. We just need the Department of Education to review the supports available at exam time. I ask the Minister of State to advise the Minister of Education to develop a more user-friendly, 21st century solution to this problem in order to allow suitable and reasonable examination accommodations for students who have recently arrived and whose first language is not English.

I thank the Deputy for raising this matter. It is recognised that the curriculum at primary and post-primary is intended to be for all learners from all backgrounds, regardless of gender, socioeconomic background, race or creed. It aims to foster inclusivity where equality and diversity are promoted. Our education system, especially our schools, throughout the country supports, encourages and reflects diversity among our students, including with regard to language. The diverse nature of our society means that many of our schools have children and young people whose mother tongue is neither English nor Irish and whose home language is different from the language of instruction of the school. These children and young people, including but certainly not limited to those from Ukraine, may have particular language learning needs, which are referred to as EAL needs.

In the context of State examinations specifically, the State Examinations Commission, SEC, has responsibility for the operation, delivery and development of State examinations. As part of its remit, the SEC provides a scheme of reasonable accommodations at the certificate examinations, RACE, to support students with a complex variety of special educational needs. The focus of the scheme is on removing barriers to access while retaining the need to assess the same underlying skills and competencies as are assessed for all other students and to apply the same standards of achievement as apply to all other candidates. The scheme provides accommodations for students with a variety of complex special educational needs, including learning difficulties and permanent or temporary physical, visual, hearing, medical, sensory, emotional, behavioural or other conditions.

The provision of accommodations for students for whom English is an additional language and who otherwise have no special educational needs is the use of bilingual dictionaries. These are permitted by the SEC in State examinations other than in cases where examinations are in the candidate’s first language - a student whose first language is French will not be permitted to use the dictionary in the French examination - a language closely related to the candidate's first language, English or Irish. Given that it is the language being tested, allowing candidates to use dictionaries in these subjects would compromise the fundamental principle of fair assessment for certification. Bilingual translation dictionaries between the student's first language and English or Irish, without explanation of terms or definitions, are permitted. However, it is important to say that electronic bilingual dictionaries, translators, word lists or glossaries are not permitted. Again, this is to ensure fairness for all students as assessed by the SEC.

With regard to children and young people from Ukraine in our schools, the Department of Education is supporting schools in responses to these children and young people, especially through the regional education and language teams, REALT, across the country. In addition, the wide array of resources available includes information relating to free digital tools, including apps that can assist with text and voice translation, and the allocation of specialist resources to schools that take account of the needs of pupils, including, where appropriate, EAL.

The Deputy may also wish to note that in the leaving certificate examination Ukrainian, as a non-curricular language, is being developed by the SEC. The first examination will be available for students sitting the leaving certificate in June 2025.

I appreciate that the Minister of State is here to answer on behalf of the Minister for Education. We are approaching the second anniversary of the invasion of Ukraine by Russia. More than 100,000 refugees fleeing that war have come here, 18,000 of whom are students in our schools. Would it not be an appropriate tribute to say that we recognise their pain, that they have left their friends and families behind and that their worry is our worry. We can make life safer and easier. Maybe that would send a message that we value their being here, that we look forward to their being part of Ireland's future and that we will assist their integration by ensuring that all the necessary supports for English as a second language are in place. We could think a bit more about that. The Minister of State might pass that message back.

Another serious issue has arisen in respect of SET hours. Last week, the Department of Education announced significant changes to the allocation of special education supports for schoolchildren. These changes are to include the removal of complex needs as one of the eligibility criteria for special education teachers. This change will impact the most vulnerable children in our communities and schools. Numerous parents of children with autism and Down's syndrome have contacted me. They are already exhausted as a result of the fight to access assessments and supports for their children. They are now being told that their children may be denied special education supports in school. The announced changes that are due in September represent a major step backwards in the context of inclusivity for special needs children in mainstream education. I ask that the Minister immediately reverse that decision and that instead of cutting teachers' hours for special education, she move to improve and increase these supports in schools.

This Government can be very proud of the support it has shown to Ukraine and to Ukrainians who have come here. We offer some of the best supports of any country in the European Union. Our supports in the educational system have, quite frankly, been extraordinary. Few other countries in Europe can show the level of integration and supports that have been provided to Ukrainian children in Ireland. I have visited several other European countries to see and hear about the supports they have provided. The Government is very much aware that children and young people whose mother tongue is neither English nor Irish and whose home language is different from the language of the instruction of the school, especially those from Ukraine, may have particular language learning needs. The Government is proud of the fact that our educational system, schools, teachers and education partners continue to respond to the needs of these students who have particular language learning requirements.

I have outlined some of the supports that the Department provides to schools in their immediate responses to children and young people, especially those from Ukraine. They take into account the needs of students including, where appropriate, EAL. As part of its remit, the SEC provides the RACE scheme in order to support with a complex variety of special educational needs. This scheme assists students who have special educational needs to demonstrate what they know and can do in certificate examinations without compromising the integrity of the assessment and ensuring fairness for all students. Earlier, I outlined the accommodations under the RACE scheme for students for whom English is an additional language but who do not have special educational needs.

In the context of teaching and learning, the primary resource to inform teaching and learning for all children and young people, including those with EAL needs, is the curriculum from primary school right up to senior cycle in post-primary schools. Additional resources are designed to complement the curriculum. Teaching and learning resources are available from the National Council for Curriculum and Assessment, the National Educational Psychological Service and Oide, which is a support service for teachers and school leaders. Post-Primary Languages Ireland provides a dedicated resource in this regard as well.

Owenabue Educate Together National School was set up in 2020. It has faced a number of challenges during its short existence. A building that was earmarked for it at one stage was subsequently given to Carrigaline Community Special School. This was no fault of Carrigaline Community Special School, which is an excellent school. However, what happened made the long- and medium-term planning for the Owenabue Education Together National School challenging. A permanent site for the latter was identified last year, which was welcome. The site is in the vicinity of Janeville housing estate in Carrigaline, a town that has grown enormously over the past 20 years. Not terribly long ago, it was a village. Now, there are approximately 17,000 people living there. It is a rapidly growing town with a huge young population. As a result of this, there are many new schools in the area.

In January, Owenabue Educate Together National School was informed of the Department's proposals for interim accommodation. Even though the school has only junior and senior infants and first and second classes as it builds itself up, the Department's proposal was that the two parts of the school would be separated across the town. One would be based near the school's current and permanent site in Janeville and the other part would be located in temporary accommodation next to Carrigaline Educate Together National School, which is on other side of the town. This proposal is completely unworkable. Split campuses are seldom ideal. In the particular circumstances relating to this case, what is proposed would be completely unworkable. At the very best of times, it takes 35 to 40 minutes to walk or ten minutes to drive between the two locations. Carrigaline is a busy town, with a good deal of industry and heavy traffic as people commute from there to Ringaskiddy and into the city. In the mornings, that trip could quite comfortably take 25 minutes. If a parent has to drop two children to each of these campuses and a third to one of the local secondary schools, it is completely unworkable. It is also unworkable for staff, including special needs assistants, SNAs, and special education teachers, who might have to move between the two locations for PE and other classes. My understanding is that the Department has accepted this to some extent. I will be interested to hear what the Minister of State has to say in that regard. It is also my understanding is that there is an acceptance that what is proposed is unworkable.

I look forward to hearing what the Minister of State has to say and what he can confirm on the record. The school has been working with the Department to try to come up an alternative. A site adjacent to the Janeville site, which may not be absolutely perfect, is being considered by the Department. There will still be significant challenges in terms of funding, and I might come back to that in my next contribution. In the first instance, however, I want to know if this completely unworkable proposal is off the table now and if the Department is working on the potential alternative of the school being co-located between Janeville and the adjacent site, which, I believe, is either in Heronswood or close to it. If the Minister of State can provide an update on that, I will then come in on the financial challenges.

I thank Deputy Ó Laoghaire for raising the important matter of Owenabue Educate Together National School. I am taking this Topical Issue on behalf of the Minister for Education, Deputy Foley. I thank the Deputy for raising this matter because it provides the Minister with an opportunity to clarify the position in respect of the Department's plans for the school.

Owenabue Educate Together National School is a co-educational, multidenominational school under the patronage of Educate Together. It is located in the town of Carrigaline, County Cork. The school opened in 2020-21 with seven enrolments and was located in interim accommodation owned by Carrigaline Lions Club. The school subsequently relocated to its existing privately owned accommodation in 2021-22. Last September, it had a current enrolment of 63 pupils. The school is located in the Carrigaline school planning area and there are currently eight primary schools and three post-primary school in this school planning area. The school's current staffing is a principal, two mainstream class teachers, two special class teachers, one special education tuition teacher, one shared special education tuition teacher and an EAL post.

I am pleased to advise that a building project to provide a new 16-classroom primary school building to include special education needs provision for the school is being advanced by the Department.

The acquisition of a 2.76 acre permanent site for the school, at Janeville, Shannon Park, Carrigaline, is currently at an advanced stage of conveyancing. It is expected that contracts will be signed shortly. The suite of accommodation to be provided as part of the building project includes 16 classrooms, a general purpose room, a library and ancillary accommodation. In addition, the school will have two classrooms for children with special educational needs and external facilities such as ball courts, junior play areas and soft play areas.

The project will be delivered as part of the Department's accelerated delivery of architectural planning and tendering, ADAPT, programme. The programme uses a professional external project manager to co-ordinate and drive the design team to achieve the best possible timeframe for the project through the stages of architectural planning to tender and construction. The project is currently at design team tender assessment. It is estimated that the design team appointment will be ratified during quarter 2 of 2024. Upon appointment, the team will proceed to stage 1 of architectural planning, preliminary design, where it will assess the site and prepare its initial sketch schemes. A preferred design option, including the scope and extent of works to be carried out, will be established during this early stage.

Pending provision of the new school building, further interim arrangements are required for the 2024-25 academic school year to facilitate the growth of the school. Officials in the Department are in discussions with the school's patron, Educate Together, to look at options available to allow the school to expand and to put a solution in place in this regard. No decision has yet been made regarding the accommodation solution for 2024-25.

I do not believe what is set out in the Minister of State's reply. I know it is not his fault. I was offered the choice to postpone this matter or allow him to take it this morning. Conscious of the urgency of the situation, I asked that it be taken today. The Department officials who drafted the reply either did not look into the issue properly or they decided to be too clever by half.

I asked a very clear question, which was about the proposed plans for Owenabue Educate Together National School that involve splitting the school across two sites on either side of Carrigaline. My question obviously relates to the interim arrangements. The reply included ten paragraphs on the permanent solution, on which I am fully up to date, and only one paragraph on the interim solution. It is not good enough and I am very frustrated by it. I was hoping to receive confirmation regarding the interim situation. I know the Minister of State did not draft the reply. I brought the matter forward to be debated because there is an urgency to it. I am really disappointed and frustrated by the departmental response. I ask for a written response from the Department in the next day or two setting out the current state of play in terms of the temporary arrangements. We are fully aware of the permanent proposals. That is not where the concern arises at this time.

The concern relates to the interim proposals whereby the school will be split across a very busy town with heavy traffic. As I understand it, there are huge financial problems with the interim proposal involving an adjacent site. While there are grants for classrooms, there are no additional financial supports for the school to be split across two separate campuses. There is no grant for a staffroom and no additional funding for the extra heating, lighting, water, refuse, Internet and insurance costs. The capitation given to the school is based on the assumption that it is located in one place. That will be a huge challenge, even if the proposed different arrangement comes to pass. There is significant financial pressure at play. Will the Minister of State pass on the message to the Department that further financial support is needed for the school?

I again thank the Deputy for the opportunity to address some of the issues regarding this school. I hear his concerns and I certainly will bring them to the Minister's attention. As chair of the board of management of an Educate Together school with five different landlords, I understand the challenges involved for principals and boards in dealing with these types of situations. The Department's view is that, at the moment, the matter is with Educate Together. The Department is waiting for further information from the patron regarding possible solutions. I will bring the Deputy's concerns to the Minister's attention.

I ask that a scheme be put in place in each of the HSE areas across the county similar to what is offered in the South/South West Hospital Group area for women who have undergone mastectomies. Supports under that scheme include refunding of the cost of a prosthesis every two years and two free bras each year. Those supports apply to both those without medical cards and medical cardholders. Will the Minister of State indicate when such a scheme will be put in place?

I am raising this matter because it is an extremely important support scheme in the South/South West Hospital Group area. It provides for a €200 allowance every two years for the purchase of a prosthesis. Where a woman has undergone bilateral surgery, the provision is €400 every two years. In addition, funding is provided every year for two bras. There is an issue in that women who have had breast reconstruction are excluded from the allowance. Patients who have had reconstructive surgery but still require a partial or full prosthesis for reasons such as infection, hormonal breast changes or removal of implants are not included in the scheme.

I am calling for a comprehensive scheme for women who have gone through a difficult time involving surgery and treatment. Having such a scheme in place is extremely important. I understand that what was available in the South/South West Hospital Group area was not available in many parts of the country. I welcome the introduction of a comprehensive scheme across the country. However, the existing scheme in the South/South West Hospital Group area has been watered down. For instance, under the new scheme, there will be an allowance for only one free bra per year, whereas provision was previously made for two. I further understand that even the allowance for two bras did not offer sufficient support, yet the proposal is to reduce it. I welcome that the scheme is being introduced right across the country but I do not agree with the decision to downgrade what was available in the South/South West Hospital Group area.

Back in 2016, there was a proposal to totally change the scheme in the Cork-Kerry area. I went to the then Minister of State, Kathleen Lynch, and, in fairness to her, she stepped in and made sure the scheme that was in place would continue. Eight years later, I make the same request that the scheme in place in the South/South West Hospital Group area remain in place and that additional supports be put in place for women who have had reconstructive surgery. It is important that this be done.

An issue of concern is that the current breast care service in the South/South West Hospital Group area funds specialised lymphoedema bras on an annual basis to help treat lymphoedema of the breast. Those women are referred for care in that hospital group area. It is not clear whether that provision will be included in the new national scheme that is being rolled out.

Another issue is that for people to receive supports, they must now fill out an application form and send it to the HSE's central office. They cannot proceed with the supports until they obtain approval. Under the old scheme, women went to the people who were providing the supports, filled out a form there and received the care they required. The care provider would send in the application for the refund to the HSE. These changes are making it more difficult for people.

On behalf of the Minister for Health, I thank Deputy Burke for raising this matter, which is of importance to many women right across the country. The HSE provides an extensive range of medical aids and appliances to individuals living with a wide variety of medical conditions. Those aids and appliances support individuals to continue living within their communities and to enjoy a greater quality of life than would otherwise be the case.

Community funded schemes are the collective name for the provision of these products and services. The HSE spends in excess of €300 million per annum on that provision nationally. The medical aids and appliances are prescribed on the basis of an identified clinical need. Historically, many of these aids and appliances were not provided on a standardised basis across the country and did not have formal contracts in place governing their supply or cost.

This resulted in an inequality of access for some aids and appliances in some areas. It also did not allow the HSE to deliver best value for money in the provision of these products.

As part of the HSE’s service improvement programme for the community-funded schemes, a national advisory group examined the provision of post-mastectomy products with the intent of ensuring a standardised provision nationwide. A new national standard operating procedure has been devised for the provision of post-mastectomy bras and prostheses. These will now be provided to all patients, irrespective of medical card status, following partial and full mastectomies, who have not undergone reconstructive surgery. The patient will be provided with their initial post-mastectomy products in the acute hospital where their surgery took place and subsequent provision, which normally would be one year post mastectomy, will be through the CHO where they reside.

The HSE advised that the updated procedure on the provision of post-mastectomy products is to ensure greater access and equity along with a simplified administrative procedure for patients. The new national procedure replaces any previously existing local procedure. In addition to improving equity and access for all patients who require post-mastectomy products, it will also ensure the same level of contribution to purchase those products is available to each patient. The need for this arose due to awareness of a significant variation in the practice of funding post-mastectomy products across the country. The standardised approach seeks to speed up and simplify the process and decrease the burden placed on patients and administrative staff alike.

The overriding goal is to provide practical, clear and unambiguous processes. The scope of this new procedure applies to all breast cancer patients, irrespective of medical card status, who have undergone a partial or full mastectomy only and all healthcare professionals involved in the care of such service users.

I thank the Minister of State for the clarification. However, as I said, there is a watering down of what is available in the South/South West Hospital Group area and I ask that that be revisited. That is the issue of funding for two free bras per annum. My understanding is that number per annum is not even sufficient but it is now watered down to funding for one free bra per annum.

I am concerned about the procedure now being talked about, where people have to fill out the application beforehand. It has to be processed before people can access the care they require. I am concerned about that because I have seen this happen in the HSE previously. It is not a criticism; rather it is the volume of work involved. I have seen it with respect to applications under the fair deal scheme where we are waiting for quite a long time before applications are fully assessed. I am concerned. The old procedure, as I understand it, was they went to the provider, they filled out the forms there, the prostheses or bras were provided there and the funding was then followed through by the provider.

I very much welcome what is happening throughout the country. There was not a comprehensive support scheme in many parts of the country and I welcome this being introduced. It is extremely important that we give support to women who have gone through that type of treatment and who want to get on with their lives. It is important we give the maximum support. I ask that the issue be looked at as well as the issue of how the applications will be processed. I am not clear on the way we are talking about doing it. I am concerned about the delays that may occur. If this is the scheme we are going to go through with, in six months’ time, we should review it to see how it is working. I ask that we revisit the supports annually rather than watering down what is in the South/South West Hospital Group.

On behalf of the Minister for Health, I again thank Deputy Burke for raising this very important matter. Aids and appliances provided by the HSE under the community funding scheme support individuals to continue living within their communities. They are prescribed on the basis of an identified clinical need and are provided in line with established criteria. The purpose of the service improvement programme established by the HSE has the aim of improving the quality of services provided, improving access and eliminating historical inequities in the provision of these services in different parts of the country.

Recently, the HSE implemented a national standard procedure in respect of post-mastectomy products as, previously, no clinical procedures were in existence for these products. While this procedure does not include products for sporting activities, for example, swimming and running, and other leisure activities, it does ensure there is equal access to appropriate post-mastectomy products for all women who need them, irrespective of medical card status.

I thank the Minister of State for taking Topical Issue Matters today. From about 8.45 onwards this morning and every weekday morning, a trickle of people start to arrive at Phibsborough post office. That trickle very quickly turns into a queue and that queue is representative of the vast array of different people who live in and make Phibsborough their home. They queue outside the post office for a variety of reasons. It is a hub of the community.

Phibsborough post office provides a multitude of different services. The people who go there frequent it for the services it offers, the sense of the community and the conversations they have along the way. In the past two weeks or so, the community has been told that Phibsborough post office is at risk of being closed or having the services significantly diluted and placed off site.

I cannot begin to describe the manner in which I would object to that. As I said, it is a place where people buy their stamps and so on, but it is far more than that. Phibsborough post office is not unique in that sense. Post offices the length and breadth of Ireland play a vital community role. If we are to erode those services, it would be to the detriment of the community and the people who use them.

First, I strongly seek more information from the Government. I note the Minister of State is representing the Minister for communications. I would like to understand better the intention for the erosion of this service. I strongly protest against any dilution of the services. We simply cannot have a scenario where it is outsourced to a postmaster who moves those services off site to the back of a shop or we find some other little outlet that does not come anywhere close to providing the same service. I wish to understand exactly what the Government’s plan is. The Minister of State can speak of post offices in general but I ask that he speak about Phibsborough, if possible.

I also wish to understand how best we can oppose this. I do not believe for a second the Minister with responsibilities for postal services, Deputy Ryan, wants to see the erasure of these types of services in communities. There has to be an appreciation of the role they play. You do not notice those services until somebody says they are gone. Last week, there was a general level of anxiety, with people wondering what would happen if the post office were taken away. There is no bank in Phibsborough, so that post office becomes a hub where older people in particular, who are not using their phones, do their banking.

The post office on Mountjoy Street was taken away a number of years ago and there was a threat to remove Phibsborough post office in 2017. We should not have to protest too hard to keep these types of services. They are needed and valued. Post offices are a central hub of communities. I would like to understand the Government’s plan and position and how best we oppose this dilution of service.

I thank Deputy Gannon for raising the important issue of the proposed closure of the Phibsborough post office in Dublin 7. I welcome the opportunity to outline the position on this matter on behalf of the Minister of State, Deputy Chambers.

An Post is a commercial State company with a mandate to act commercially and, as such, day-to-day operational matters, including the decisions related to the size, distribution and future of the network are matters for the board and management of the company and are not ones in which the Minister of State has a statutory function.

The Minister of State is aware of the impact that decisions relating to changes in An Post operations have on communities and individuals in both rural and urban areas. I understand the Minister of State, Deputy Chambers, met with An Post officials on 14 February and discussed the proposed conversion of six post offices run by An Post to being contractor run. Several of the post offices in question are located in key business community locations and An Post gave an undertaking to review its decision to the proposed conversion and will revert to the Minister of State, Deputy Chambers.

In line with its ongoing transformation, An Post recently announced that it is converting six post offices from being An Post run to being contractor run, one of which is the Phibsborough office. That post office will join the mainstream of national post offices, of which more than 90% of the country’s 900 post offices are run by contractors. Fewer than 40 post offices throughout the State are now run directly by An Post.

An Post indicated that the change in business model of the six offices will not in any way change the range or extent of the services offered by An Post in those selected locations.

The company remains committed to providing each area with the highest level of services for the future. An Post staff formerly employed at the post offices in question will have options, including taking up employment as a new postmaster or being redeployed within the network. The Government's objectives for the An Post network include harnessing the opportunities presented by e-commerce and the digital economy and delivering a sustainable nationwide post office network offering a range of e-commerce, financial and government services. The Government agreed that an amount of €10 million per annum will be provided by the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications over a three-year fixed term from 2023 to 2025 to support postmasters with funding to be dispersed across the post office network. The funding is being paid monthly for each 12-month period. More than €9.7 million has been claimed by An Post for 2023 for the postmaster network.

Over recent years, An Post has transformed its business by delivering new products and new formats in the way it operates. This includes, among other things, diversifying and growing the financial services products it provides for individuals and SMEs to include loans, credit cards and more foreign exchange products, local banking in association with the major banks, and a full range of State savings products. An Post is also providing agency banking services for AIB and Bank of Ireland.

The programme for Government recognises that a modernised post office network will provide a better range of financial and e-commerce services for citizens and enterprise as part of our commitment to a sustainable nationwide post office network. The overall €30 million in funding being provided to support a sustainable nationwide post office network is in line with this commitment.

I thank the Minister of State for his response. I disagree with him in that I do not necessarily think a dilution of services through their transfer from An Post to a different style of service will have any benefit at all for the community. That is captured, in particular, by the staff who currently work in the An Post office at Phibsborough. There is a genuine sense of anxiety about what it will mean for their employment and the people who avail of that service. I appreciate the building has a particular significance within the area. I hope it is not the Minister's plan, and the Minister of State might clarify whether it is intended for the services to remain within the building. That is not the understanding of the community regarding these changes. It is expected that the services will transfer to a smaller building, which would definitely impact the nature and type of community we have in Phibsborough.

I oppose, from the bottom of my heart, any dilution of services in the postal service at Phibsborough. It will have a detrimental effect on the sense of community spirit there. We cannot keep losing institutions from communities. Phibsborough is going through various changes, but there have to be landmark buildings and places where people can gather and go about their business. Taking that away erodes the fabric of communities. It will have a detrimental effect. I encourage the Minister of State to implore the Minister of State, Deputy Chambers, to go back to An Post to ensure the service remains on site in Phibsborough. We do not need any more postal services in the backs of shops. It does not work. I thank the Minister of State. I will take the matter up further.

I certainly agree with the Deputy regarding the importance of our post offices and the fact they go way above and beyond the individual services provided in those local communities. As I indicated, decisions relating to post offices are operational matters for An Post, but the Minister of State, Deputy Chambers, will continue to engage with the company on the proposed conversion of post offices and those concerns that have been raised by the Deputy and other Deputies. At the meeting, An Post gave an undertaking to review its decision on the proposed conversion and will revert to the Minister of State in the very near future.

Deputy Gannon will appreciate that the Minister cannot issue a direction to prevent An Post from doing that which the Oireachtas has given it to do as a statutory responsibility. An Post has an independent board with a clear mandate and plays an important role in serving the needs of business and domestic customers alike. This is at the forefront of An Post's mandate. The board of management is doing what it can to maintain the company's sustainability and relevance to customers. As the Deputy rightly pointed out, that includes relevance to local communities. The Minister, Deputy Ryan, the Minister of State, Deputy Chambers, and their officials and Cabinet colleagues are working to support the company to that end.