Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 18 Jan 2024

I thank the Deputy. I look forward to working with her and with colleagues in the House throughout the year. I am very pleased to have the opportunity to take this question on what is a really important issue right across the country. Student accommodation and student housing is not just an issue for students but also presents an opportunity, as we increase supply for students, to free up other accommodation for families, professionals and people coming to a city or region to rent or purchase. There is definitely a double benefit to increasing the supply of student accommodation.

As the Deputy will know, since November 2022, I have secured Government approval to start investing taxpayers' money in the building of student accommodation for the first time. We secured €61 million to unlock the development of up to 1,000 new and additional student accommodation beds across four universities. These universities had planning permissions but the projects were viewed as unviable. We have invested taxpayers' money to get them moving. These projects are being progressed as an immediate response to unlock the supply of accommodation.

I am please to inform the Deputy that projects at both Maynooth University and Dublin City University are at tender stage. These will deliver 521 beds. I expect those projects to go to construction this year. The remaining projects at the University of Limerick and the University of Galway are undergoing due diligence assessment in line with our public spending code and infrastructure guidelines. I expect progress on both projects shortly.

This week, I secured Government approval to progress a long-term student accommodation policy. This is an action under Housing for All. This policy aims to increase the supply of student accommodation and, crucially, to also reduce students' reliance on private rental accommodation so as to reduce the barrier that accommodation can present in accessing higher education. The long-term policy aims to narrow the gap between supply and demand and targets the development of public and purpose-built student accommodation and the refurbishment of vacant units. It will also progress and explore some of the issues we have discussed regarding the rent-a-room scheme and digs. The policy will also address the cost of construction through the development of standardised design templates for student accommodation, which could be extraordinarily helpful as regards the cost and speed of development. It will also look at the examination of transport links and viable commuting options, an issue student unions across the country are, quite rightly, bringing up.

To be perfectly honest, for most people, the announcement this week would have sounded like there was to be very substantial new investment in student accommodation. We sometimes need to look at how announcements and the media reporting around them are perceived and the hopes and concerns among students they can lead to. It is just not good enough for announcements to be made that can give people hope only for us not to deliver. If we look at what this three-point policy actually is, we will see that it will not mean any meaningful change. I do not see anything fundamentally different from what the Minister has told us about. He told us that his Department is going to start co-funding the construction of on-campus accommodation but, as he said, that has been under way since November 2022. He also told us that, in exchange for this funding, below-market rates will have to be provided for certain rooms. Again, that is part of the existing model. The likes of DCU are doing that. He further told us that use will be made of the rent-a-room scheme. This was first introduced in 2001. Will he tell us exactly what in this announcement is different from what has previously been announced?

Absolutely. Many things are different.

The Deputy constantly raises with me the need for a new student accommodation policy. The student accommodation policy in advance of this was wholly reliant on the private market. It was all about the private market building purpose-built student accommodation. This is turning that on its head. This is about recognising that the new policy under Housing for All is very much around funding universities and technological universities to build student accommodation and us, as a State, helping to bridge that viability gap.

We have already started projects, and I am pleased about that. We do not need to wait for formal policy to start projects. We have started projects and got them to tender in DCU and Maynooth University. We will have more to follow in Limerick and Galway. We are talking to UCD, Trinity College and DCU about more they can do. That was about the immediate, however. It was about taking projects that already had planning permission. We will now be working with every university in the country, including the technological universities, to get their plans in. We have surveyed 22,801 students who are renting or involved in student accommodation today to ask them their views on what they want to see. We are working on a standardised design template. We will have standardised design applications out to all universities and will be bringing back in projects. There is a significant focus on being less reliant on the private market. In addition, as recently as 17 days ago we extended the renters' tax credit, which makes a real difference to families in reducing the cost of student accommodation.

This is about teasing it out and trying to understand. I was previously Sinn Féin spokesperson on public expenditure and reform. I have never seen a Department that does as many announcements as the Department of Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science. I welcome announcements if they mean there will be progress for students and things will be better for them. When that is the case, I am totally on board. When it is announcements that do not seem to be making much of a difference in students' lives, however, it is a different matter. If this announcement will mean progress for students, all the better and more power to the Minister.

As regards technological universities, will this allow for TUs or is it simply getting in data to see what they could build? What is the difference from the rent-a-room scheme? Does it relate to other universities being able to build? Does it relate specifically to the standardised design, which is welcome?

The reality is that announcements give people hope. At present, students are deciding which colleges to select on their CAO form based on whether they can afford to go to a college away from home. That comes down specifically to the issue of housing. We have seen the increase in the number of deferrals as a result of the housing crisis. I am concerned at the high number of announcements and their impact going forward. This Department makes a lot of announcements. Many of them are re-announcements. If there are announcements that help people, I will back them 100% and am happy to support them.

To be clear, when we take policy decisions, we announce them and tell people about them. It is a good and important thing that we tell our stakeholders and bosses, namely, the people of Ireland what the Government has decided. Let us be clear. The Government decided this week, on my recommendation, to adopt a new approach to student accommodation. The Government has decided that we will use taxpayers' hard-earned money to help to build student accommodation. In terms of hope, that will mean 521 more beds going to construction this year at DCU and Maynooth University. It will mean enabling me to advance and bring to conclusion conversations with UCD, Trinity, DCU, UL and NUI Galway about more they can do. That is hope. It is extra accommodation and beds that can be delivered in projects that have planning permission.

The Deputy asked a fair question about the technological universities. The next phase is not about gathering data. We have done that through 22,801 students. All the universities have engaged in the process. The next bit is about asking them to send forward their proposals to inform my engagement with the Minister for Public Expenditure, NDP Delivery and Reform on the capital review. I would like to see those proposals back by the end of this quarter.

I thank the Deputy for raising this important issue. It is important that we look at all the resources available on the island of Ireland when it comes to education, particularly in the context of trying to provide the number of graduates we require for our public services. We have started with nursing and therapy posts. This year, students from across the island of Ireland are availing of nursing courses and therapy positions in Northern Ireland. The interest in therapy positions - speech and language therapy, occupational therapy and the likes - was so significant we had to increase from 50 to 80 the number of places we were funding in Northern Ireland. We now wish to look at how we can do this in respect of medicine.

Putting aside politics, political vacuums and everything else for the moment, we know the people of Ireland move around the island of Ireland. A person living in Donegal who needs cancer treatment is likely to get it in Altnagelvin. A sick baby in Belfast who needs a life-saving heart operation is likely to get it in Dublin. It makes sense to look at the all-island approach to these matters.

As the Deputy will be aware, increasing the number of medical graduates is a priority for the Government, me and the Minister for Health. Working with the Minister, Deputy Donnelly, in July 2022 I received Government approval to progress work to increase by 200 the number of medicine places in universities throughout Ireland. This was a multi-annual agreement, with 60 of these places introduced in 2022, 60 last year and a further 40 this year. This has had a significant impact. That is evident from the fact that for the first time in a decade or so, the points for medicine fell.

As part of the Government agreement, my Department sought to progress work to secure places for Irish students in medical schools in Northern Ireland. Under this approach, students would be eligible to apply for an internship in the HSE on graduation. Students may also be eligible for a maintenance grant under SUSI, the student grant scheme. My officials have been working closely with the institutions in the North and the Departments for health and the economy in Northern Ireland through the past 18 months to develop a proposal that would lead to more medical places for Irish students in the North and increase the pool of Irish medical graduates educated on the island who would be eligible to apply to work in the HSE. The final details of the proposal are now being worked through. As such, I am not currently in a position to expand further on the funding arrangements. However, I expect to be in a position to make a further announcement in the coming weeks.

I received an email from a third-year medical student who is attending Ulster University. The course is located on Magee campus in Derry and, this year, the students are based in hospitals throughout the east Trust in Northern Ireland. Many of those studying medicine at Ulster University are from the Republic of Ireland. The student was shocked to find out this week that upon their graduation in 2025, it is unlikely they will be able to apply for internship posts and work as doctors in the Republic of Ireland. This is due to the HSE requiring transcripts of their final degree from the university at an earlier date than is possible. The issue in relation to administration means that many students who wish to work in the Republic of Ireland will instead opt for a two-year foundation training course located in the UK. The student states it is disappointing that these issues have not been resolved despite the HSE being aware of the course for the past three years, and probably many years prior to that. The student further states that at a time when retention in the HSE system is critical, it is ridiculous not to allow medical students the chance to work in the Republic of Ireland. The student asks the Minister to discuss the matter and to provide a resolution, if not awareness, to most of the issues that have been raised.

This is a serious situation. The Minister has made funding available for medical students to attend these universities. We are paying for them to study medicine. These students want to come and work in the Republic of Ireland but they are not being allowed to do so.

I thank the Deputy for sharing that information from his constituent who is studying on the Magee campus of Ulster University in Derry. I will raise that matter directly with the Minister for Health. I should be clear that what I am doing with the Minister, Deputy Donnelly, in respect of the courses and places we intend to fund will be from this coming September. Without knowing the details, it sounds like the student in question is already studying in Northern Ireland in advance of the new scheme and initiative I am hoping to put in place for this September in Belfast and hopefully in Derry. If the Deputy provides details of the matter to me, I will be happy to raise it with the Minister, Deputy Donnelly. He and all the Government wish to ensure we attract as many doctors as possible, particularly doctors and students who are studying on the island of Ireland, to work in the Irish health service.

In the coming weeks, I will be finalising with the universities in Northern Ireland their capacity and appetite for accepting funding from the Government to provide medicine places that can be ring-fenced for students from this jurisdiction. It is an important initiative to keep people studying on the island of Ireland. With the Minister, Deputy Donnelly, we will be finalising what that means in terms of opportunities on graduation for internship and placements within the HSE.

I am surprised that no one else has contacted the Minister on the matter. In fairness, the Government is subsidising these medical students to go to Northern Ireland. The difference is that students from Northern Ireland who wish to attend university there have to pay up to £10,000 or £11,000 to do so.

My big concern is that a recent ESRI study showed Ireland will need at least another 2,600 doctors in hospitals by 2025. Many of the doctors training in the Republic of Ireland are going abroad. This issue is on our doorstep. I am disappointed at the current situation. The constituency offices of all Members are being visited by people whose doctors have retired or who cannot get an appointment.

At the moment they are depending on the HSE to get them a doctor. The situation is very simple. The HSE is not doing its work as far as I am concerned. The Minister is responsible for the payment of these fees. It is very important that he and the HSE sit down. These students want to come and train as doctors in the Republic of Ireland. I am sure there is a good reason they have to go to Northern Ireland to be trained. As I said, we are looking for doctors and these doctors are on our doorstep. This a very serious situation. As a former Minister for Health and current Minister for further education, Deputy Harris is the most suitable Minister to sort out this situation.

I thank the Deputy for the vote of confidence in me. This is a very important issue for his constituent and I will certainly take it up with the Minister, Deputy Stephen Donnelly. I need to be clear for the record of the House. The initiative I am talking about has not yet commenced. It is commencing from September. We are not currently funding those places for students in Northern Ireland. It is a statement of fact that students in Northern Ireland pay much higher fees than students here. A registration fee in Ireland is €3,000 and we have reduced it for two years in a row to €2,000, in addition to SUSI support, student grants and the likes. In Northern Ireland, people pay many multiples of that and many avail of student loans and the like. What I want to do, and I am working with the Minister, Deputy Donnelly, to do it, is put in place a system where students from this jurisdiction can study medicine in Northern Ireland at the rates we charge here, not the higher rates in Northern Ireland, and that we would look to bridge the gap.

We have presided over the biggest increase in medicine places in the Republic of Ireland in many years, with 60 extra places in 2022, 60 in 2023 and 40 more places this year, as well as the discussions with Northern Ireland, for all the reasons the Deputy rightly outlined. Our people need more doctors. On the specific issue, I am very happy to co-ordinate a response to the Deputy and to engage with the Minister for Health.

I thank the Deputy for raising an important point. As we all know, Ireland has one of the highest participation rates in third level education in Europe. Every year, the Higher Education Authority conducts a survey of graduates nine months after graduation. Over 70,000 graduates from the class of 2022 completed the survey to provide a really good picture of what graduates are doing in their early-stage careers. The survey has taken place each year since 2017 with the exception of the class of 2019, who were not surveyed due to disruption caused by Covid-19. In 2020, 75.9% of graduates were in employment nine months after graduation and 13.8% went on to further study. In 2022, 83% of graduates were in employment with 10.3% engaging in further study. This shows that the overwhelming majority of graduates are choosing to stay in Ireland after graduation and to work and do further study here.

In relation to apprentices, a key part of the apprenticeship system is the relationship between employer and the apprentice. As the Deputy knows, apprenticeships are undertaken through a contract of employment. Data is currently not collected in relation to this area for apprentices. The Deputy has raised a valid point, which I will pursue. The sense we have from engagement is that the majority of apprentices stay with the employer they train with for a period after they are fully certified. That makes logical sense but we could do with more data in this area.

One of the strengths of the further education and training model, including apprenticeships, is the link between education, enterprise and the needs of the economy. These courses are designed to focus on the needs of employers and industry developments. Therefore, trying to retain that talent is a significant priority for me and the Government. There are reasons to be encouraged when we look at the figures, and I am happy to share them. We see the overwhelming majority of graduates staying in employment in Ireland or going on to study in Ireland in the months after graduation. We monitor that year on year and have actually seen an increase in recent years.

That is interesting. I am sure the Minister is aware of the story, first broken by The Sunday Times, that over 21,000 Irish citizens have been granted visas to Australia, double the number recorded in the previous year. This will not come as a surprise to any of us because we see it in our friendship groups and neighbourhoods. With the number of people going to Australia, it feels like it did when I came out of college or did the leaving certificate in the 2008 period. According to The Sunday Times, between July 2022 and July 2023, 21,525 holiday permits were granted. That makes us the largest recipient per capita of this kind of visa, ahead of Britain, France and Germany. We keep hearing that the economy is doing well but very clearly something is going wrong for young people here that they feel there is no alternative to going to Australia. Of course, there will always be an element who want to go and travel, see the world and all that kind of thing, but when there is that level of an increase there is clearly something amiss.

I thank Deputy Farrell but I think the statistics paint a different picture. They are not my statistics but those of the Central Statistics Office. The Deputy will probably have seen that they were revised upwards during the Christmas period. They show the number of Irish citizens returning to this country significantly outstrips the number of Irish citizens leaving this country. There is a narrative out there, a statistically false one, that more Irish citizens are leaving the country than are coming back. The Deputy has not said that today. If we look at the CSO data for 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020, 2021 and 2022, all of which is published and available, we see significantly more Irish citizens - tens of thousands more - came back to Ireland than left during that period. The figure was revised by the CSO relatively recently.

There can never be room for complacency. Right across the world there is a battle for talent. One of the biggest issues we experience in public services and private industry is the recruitment and retention of our talent. Therefore it is important that we continue our annual survey. The point about apprentices that the Deputy's question has brought up is valid in terms of how we can gain more data on that. I am very happy to share the information I have with her.

I am aware of that statistic. It was the Minister for Justice, Deputy McEntee, who raised it with me. I do not think it is tens of thousands. I stand to be corrected on that. I will have to look it up. The reality is 21,000 young people went to Australia last year, which is a massive increase from the previous year. Obviously there is something amiss here. We are not in the age group where our friends who had left are coming back or hoping to come back and are trying to raise a family. Fundamentally, the housing crisis is having a severe impact on that. In recent years, I have been to countless weddings and a large number of those who got married some years ago are still living with their parents as a married couple because they have nowhere to go. They cannot get a mortgage if they have been abroad. They find it impossible to get a full-time permanent job. As a result, they cannot get a mortgage. They cannot get planning and they find the rents are very high. The Minister and I can argue the point about the numbers. I do not have the figures in front of me. However, we do have the figure of 21,000 and we know that is a doubling. We need to look at why so many young people are leaving and we need to try to deal with that.

I definitely do not want to argue. While accepting neither of us has the specific figures in front of us, let us also accept that both of us believe and know that the Central Statistics Office has produced figures that show that more Irish citizens have returned to the country than left it in the period 2017 to 2022.

----but we can debate that on another day.

Deputy Farrell is not wrong that housing remains the biggest challenge facing young people in this country. We can have a debate, as we do in this House all the time, about what the best solutions are in terms of providing opportunities. The fact that we are now seeing about 500 people purchase their first home every single week, the highest figure we have seen in many years, is an encouraging sign. That we now have schemes in place to get a deposit and bridge the gap between what people can save and what they need to get a deposit is a good thing. It is important that we are going to do more on student accommodation. In my Department and the Department the Deputy shadows, the fact that we are going to make sure we continue to train more people to build homes is good. Some people will always leave the country and sometimes people will come back. More people are coming back than are leaving. From a graduate point of view, the HEA survey provides an insight into how many people go straight into the world of work and how many people continue on in education. I am encouraged that those figures increased between 2020 and 2022. I also acknowledge that we need to do more in terms of data around apprenticeships.

The Minister is well aware that a site has been identified in Roscommon for a training centre for the ETB. It has the backing of all political sides in Roscommon. It is not just me, but everyone who has spoken to the Minister. Moegie Maher, a Fine Gael councillor in Galway who is on the ETB, has been involved in it.

This is Roscommon Inc. coming together to identify a site that will actually help with skills down the road. I am asking about the status of the proposed site. Is the Department funding it and where are we at? If a decision has not been made, when will one be made?

I thank the Deputy for asking the question and raising this issue with me on a number of occasions. I thank him for being good and honourable enough to acknowledge other people like Councillor Moegie Maher, Senator Dolan and others who have worked on this. I acknowledge that everybody from Roscommon in this House has come together to try to make progress on this and to work very closely with the Galway and Roscommon Education and Training Board, GRETB. I thank them for their work on that.

My officials and I are very aware of the GRETB application and the work that is being done on the business case in respect of the proposed purchase of a property in Roscommon town to facilitate new apprenticeship training capacity. Initial documentation regarding this request for funding was submitted by GRETB to SOLAS, our agency, late last year. SOLAS is now working with GRETB to finalise that business case, which is important in securing funding. As part of this process, GRETB will be required to provide some further detail to support the acquisition from a strategic viewpoint, while taking account of the overall regional and national plans for apprentice provision for the region. This is in line with requirements that I have to satisfy in terms of the infrastructure guidelines. Once the business case is completed, it can then be appraised and forwarded to my Department. At a practical and basic level, we need to increase apprenticeship capacity dramatically around the country. I am eager to progress any capacity that we can find. We also need to make sure that people can access apprenticeships near their locality, so that if somebody in Roscommon wants to become an apprentice, he or she does not have to travel long distances to do so. We also have to recognise that there is a gap in the map, when it comes to Roscommon, that I am very eager to fill.

The Deputy will understand that it would not be helpful for me to comment on a specific building or site, but I can tell him very clearly that my overall aim is to make sure we have apprenticeship provision in County Roscommon. Indeed, we may be a bit more ambitious in that and not just limit it to apprenticeship but other skill provision that should be available in the county. My commitment is that my officials and SOLAS will continue to work very closely with GRETB. I thank its leadership team, which is doing a very good job to try to get the business case completed as a matter of urgency and to work through the process. I am eager to work with the Deputy and his colleagues in the constituency on this matter.

In fairness to the Minister, he has engaged until now. Suitable buildings do not become available too often in many parts of the country. I am familiar with the building in question. It was a garage at one time. It would be ideal for the type of apprenticeships that are being proposed. You do not find that easily. The GRETB staff can walk from the current building to the new proposed site. I know the Minister has said that more information has to be sent. The one thing we do not want is to see the process dragging on because we will lose the likes of a building like that. I am fearful that we will miss the opportunity that is there in Roscommon. It will help local businesses and those providing accommodation and everything else. There are different parts to it. Some of the youngsters could be staying in the town, which would help rejuvenate the area. I ask the Minister to keep engaging on this matter.

I agree with everything the Deputy said. I do not want this to drag on either. I obviously cannot be site-specific because of the process that needs to be gone through, but if I am asked whether I want to see apprenticeship provision in County Roscommon and want to help GRETB and SOLAS make that happen as a matter of urgency, I can say that I do. Right across the country, we are prioritising a massive increase in apprenticeship capacity. We just made an announcement in Dundalk today in relation to extra capacity for Dundalk Institute of Technology, DKIT to provide apprenticeships. That is an example from as recently as a few minutes ago. We are actively in the business of trying to grow our apprenticeship provision. We saw more apprentices complete first-time registration in this country last year than we did in any other year. Almost 9,000 new people put up their hand and said they wanted to be an apprentice. That means thousands more people to help us build our homes, retrofit our houses and meet some of our key targets.

The point the Deputy made about the regional piece is key. We have to make it as easy as possible for someone to become an apprentice, and we have to provide opportunities for businesses in the region to be able to access the supply of apprentices. That is why I am excited about the GRETB proposal. I will work very closely with the Deputy and his colleagues in Roscommon on the matter.

We have talked about building houses, and I know some of them are being built off-site at the moment. We are struggling to get youngsters into a lot of the wet trades. We are struggling to get mechanics as well. One upon a time, you used a spanner to fix a tractor; nowadays, it is a computer. It is totally different. The training is totally different from what it was at one time. You need part of both, but the computer identifies all the problems now. With the way the technology has changed, we need a lot of youngsters to do the learning. Some of the mechanics who were trained up under the old system are more reluctant to have a go at it, to be honest. We need the mechanical side of it because obviously we need transport going, but we also need people in the wet trades, including plastering and all of that, if we are talking about building houses.

All I will say is that in my opinion, the proposed site is an ideal one. I would love for the process to be pushed on. I thank the Minister for his engagement so far and I hope he keeps his finger on the pulse. It is not just me; it is every representative in Roscommon and, in fairness, east Galway. They are all together on this.

I give the Deputy my word that I will keep a very close eye on this and take an active interest in providing apprenticeship places in Roscommon, working with the Deputy and Oireachtas colleagues. The Deputy is correct when he talks about mechanics. I was out recently at an event. The AA has an upskilling and reskilling workshop because the mechanic of today needs a very different skill set tomorrow. I think last year we saw more new electric vehicles, EVs, purchased than new petrol or diesel cars. That means the mechanic of today is going to start seeing more and more EVs coming in. It is a very different skill set. The level of upskilling and reskilling that we have to do, even among people currently working in trades, with modern methods of construction being another example, is very real.

I am really encouraged by the number of people taking up apprenticeships. We have seen a 63% increase in the number of new apprentices between 2020 and this year. We have seen more people take up the craft apprentices than we had targeted for. A record number of people are becoming apprentices, but we have to do more. We need more capacity and we need to bring a regional balance to it. I thank GRETB and the Deputy for their work on this. I will be asking for the business case to be brought to a conclusion as a matter of urgency.