Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 28 Nov 2023

I propose to take Questions Nos. 1 to 6, inclusive, together.

The report, Breaking the Cycle: New Measures in Budget 2024 to Reduce Child Poverty and Promote Well-being, describes the enhanced steps the Government is taking to help children to realise their potential and escape intergenerational poverty. While the most substantial investment the Government makes in reducing child poverty is through existing programmes and expenditures, this report provides a whole-of-government overview of new and additional spending in budget 2024. Budget 2024 strongly reflects my focus on reducing child poverty and improving child well-being. It does so in a joined-up way which seeks to make progress on the six priorities identified in the child poverty and well-being programme plan, From Poverty to Potential: A Programme Plan for Child Poverty and Well-being 2023-2025. In developing their budget plans, every Minister and their Department considered their contribution to ending child poverty and promoting child well-being. This is the first time we sought to co-ordinate spending plans on child poverty and child well-being.

According to the ESRI, measures taken in the budget will lead to reductions in child poverty through both the one-off cost-of-living package measures and permanent changes. Based on last year’s census, this means that approximately 22,000 fewer children will be at risk of poverty next year. While we have more to do, this progress represents significantly fewer children living with financial uncertainty next year. The once-off cost-of-living measures are temporary measures which will help people with recent price increases, and they alone will reduce the at-risk-of-poverty rate for children by 1.3%. Permanent measures include changes to social protection rates, such as increases in the qualified child allowance and changes to the threshold for the working family payment. These will reduce the at-risk-of-poverty rate for children by a further 0.5%. Taken together, the ESRI projects that budget 2024 will reduce the at-risk-of-poverty rate for children from 16.6% to 14.8%. ESRI and Department of Finance analysis also shows that the budget will have a positive effect on the weekly household disposable income of lone parents. Help for lone parents is particularly important in reducing child poverty.

While helping household incomes is fundamental in our ambition to provide every child with the best start, the budget also reflects a much wider commitment to ensure children realise their potential and escape the intergenerational cycle of poverty. This can be seen in a range of long-term investments for children in poverty, such as measures to reduce educational disadvantage, the national childcare scheme and the extension of free GP care to children. These investments are how we will create lasting and far-reaching change in children’s lives. What this report reveals is that our new focus is accelerating and deepening our ambition in this critical area.

When we published the child poverty and well-being programme just a couple of months ago, we set out an initial 2.5-year plan.

This is the first budget in the programme and establishes the groundwork for increased co-ordination on action on child poverty and child well-being in the coming years.

I was listening attentively to Deputy Ó Broin. I think he may be correct that most people in emergency accommodation are there for six to 12 months and not six to nine months, which is what I may have said. I think he said that only applies to Dublin but I will have to double-check that point.

I welcome the first cross-government report on the budget measures to reduce child poverty and promote child well-being. While progress on the six areas identified in the child poverty and well-being programme has been made, there are huge issues. I welcome DEIS and huge money has been invested in schools but almost half of children living in poverty have little access to these supports as they are in non-DEIS schools. The home school community liaison scheme needs to be extended to all these schools. Children living in poverty can be vulnerable to dropping out and parents can struggle to access a school place. We only have 120 educational welfare officers to work with thousands of pupils. We need more of them because we have more than 4,000 schools.

Here is an example. I know of a child who started school in September, needs a hoist for mobility and whose mother had to go to the school to lift the child in and out of the chair because the hoist that was there was unavailable. She is getting one but I have children waiting on speech and language therapy. There have been improvements and I welcome them but there are still huge concerns.

Like Deputy Murnane O'Connor, I acknowledge the progress made to date, particularly in school transport and the provision of free schoolbooks. That is to be welcomed but there is one issue on which we are lagging behind and it was highlighted in Breaking the Cycle, which the Taoiseach mentioned. It is supporting service integration. The report earmarked funding of approximately €6.5 million for the integration of CDNTs, specifically the provision of 125 therapy assistants across all disciplines. How many of those 125 therapy assistants have been employed up to now? Is the Taoiseach aware that in Carrigaline special school in Cork, which has been in existence for only one year, to this day there is no access to services or therapy for children in the school by the HSE and service providers?

I too welcome the commitment when the Taoiseach took office to have a child poverty initiative and to have the report. We should note not only did the ESRI say the budget is progressive but it also went on to say it reduces the at-risk-of-poverty rates for most groups. However, we have to work on lone parents and those with disability in their family. There is more work for us to do there.

The Pobal deprivation index has shown people’s circumstances have improved and has put us back to 2006 levels but the gap is widening. There are more people in the extremely or very disadvantaged category; of course, there are more people in the country and that is connected. One of the ways we have done that is area-based interventions. I know next week the Taoiseach’s Department will meet stakeholders in Ballymun to begin the process of putting in place that area-based intervention. Perhaps a way to do it would be to have an automatic trigger when a deprivation index goes below a certain rating so that agency responses are put in place.

One of the major obstacles to child welfare is access to suitable secure housing accommodation. I highlight the case of a young mother, Jamie, with two children, Cody and Brody, aged two and four, who have both been diagnosed with cystic fibrosis and muscular dystrophy. This is probably a unique diagnosis in the world. The doctors do not know of any other. She is living with her two children in a very damp flat where they are constantly getting infections in their chest and having to take antibiotics. It is totally inappropriate for children with cystic fibrosis. They need a particular type of accommodation. She has been on the list having her priority assessed for a year but, despite all the doctors’ evidence being provided, she still has not had her priority application assessed. I ask the Taoiseach to seriously look into this particularly difficult and distressing case.

I raise the threat that Children at Risk in Ireland, CARI, will be forced to close after 34 years as the only national child sexual abuse agency. It has been told by Tusla that it will fund only 30% of CARI's over €1 million operating costs for 2024. It cannot fundraise enough to cover the rest. Therefore, unless the amount is increased, it will face closure.

Child sexual abuse is not simply an historical problem. In the first half of 2023, there were nearly 4,000 cases of suspected child physical or sexual abuse. CARI is a national organisation providing, for example, outside Dublin long-term therapeutic supports – it is the only one doing so – to children aged three to 18 affected by child sexual abuse and their families. It desperately needs this funding. This is a crucial issue for children’s well-being. Will the Government provide the funding so CARI can have a five-year plan, provide for fundraising into the future and put itself on a sustainable footing?

I thank Deputies for their questions. Deputy Murnane O'Connor mentioned DEIS schools and the need for more educational welfare officers. We always need to remind ourselves that, while many children experience disadvantage in DEIS schools, most children who experience disadvantage are not in DEIS schools. That is why extending the hot school meals programme to non-DEIS schools is really important and is being pursued by the Minister, Deputy Humphreys, and it is why I am so supportive of the Minister, Deputy Foley, in making sure free schoolbooks are provided on a universal basis. Just applying it to DEIS schools would leave out a huge number of children who suffer disadvantage but do not go to such schools. Nobody wants to see a means-testing system for something like schoolbooks. That is why we have gone for a universal basis. I agree on the need to improve the provision of therapies. That is why we are training more therapists.

I will have to come back to Deputy O'Sullivan on the question around CDNTs and therapy assistants. I do not have those figures.

Deputy McAuliffe pointed out budget 2024 is progressive, that lone parent households benefit the most and that it will reduce child poverty. It is important we build on that in future budgets. I agree with him on the value of area-based action and the work that needs to be done in Ballymun. We have seen good results in Drogheda.

What happened last Thursday night is a huge blow to people living in the north-east inner city. Some people will try to say the task force and investment there have not worked. I do not agree with that. I have been there many times and know what is being invested in the north-east inner city has made a difference to the lives of thousands of people living in that part of our capital city. Some people will say, incorrectly, that those involved in the disturbances and rioting were from the area but it is interesting to put on the record of the Dáil, as mentioned in an article in The Irish Times today, that of the 38 people arrested last Thursday, only three had addresses in Dublin 1. The majority of the people who burned parts of our city and did what they did were not local people from inner-city Dublin; they were from all over Dublin and came in with a view to causing trouble. Some came from outside of Dublin. I hope that gives people in the north-east inner city some reassurance that that is understood and we will continue to be behind regeneration projects in the north-east inner city.

Deputy Boyd Barrett raised the issue of two young boys. I did not catch their names but he said they had a diagnosis of cystic fibrosis and muscular dystrophy, which is an extremely rare dual diagnosis. I am certain it is an exceptional case. Allocations are a matter for the local authority but I am happy to look into it and see if I can help, if the Deputy will pass on the details to my office.

Deputy Murphy raised CARI, which provides a hugely valuable service which we need to continue.

I am advised by the Minister, Deputy O'Gorman, that an additional allocation has been made for this year to allow CARI to continue its work for the rest of this calendar year and that it will try to sort out arrangements for 2024 with Tusla.

I propose to take Questions Nos. 7 to 9, inclusive, together.

I met with the Prime Minister of France, Élisabeth Borne, in Government Buildings on Monday, 13 November. We discussed the close and strengthening ties between our two countries, as well as current EU and international issues. France is Ireland’s nearest neighbour in the European Union, and we share a deep commitment to the European project as the bedrock of peace, prosperity and well-being on our Continent. We acknowledged the significant progress being made under our joint plan of action for bilateral co-operation, which was agreed when President Macron visited Dublin in 2021.

Highlights include new education and research partnerships between Irish and French institutions and significantly expanded transport links. Work is under way on integrated sail-rail ticketing between Ireland and France, which we hope to have in place for the Paris Olympic Games next year. Prime Minister Borne and I welcomed the joint declaration of intent on energy transition co-operation that was signed by the Minister, Deputy Eamon Ryan, and his French counterpart, Agnès Pannier-Runacher, during the visit. Construction of the Celtic interconnector between France and Ireland has now commenced. I hope we will see a second interconnector to France in the coming years because we will need it.

In our discussion of shared EU challenges, Prime Minister Borne and I agreed that Europe needs to improve its competitiveness and resilience, and accelerate the green and digital transitions, while responding to a very uncertain world. We also discussed the mid-term review of the EU budget, and the forthcoming discussion at the December European Council on EU enlargement. We reiterated our shared and unwavering support to Ukraine and its people, and our continued commitment to providing it with the financial and other supports it needs. We also discussed the deepening humanitarian crisis in Gaza and the West Bank, the urgent need for a ceasefire and the importance of EU partners working together to bring about a just and lasting peace between Israel and Palestine, based on a two-state solution.

France and Ireland will continue to work closely on these and other issues, both within the EU and at the UN. Following our meeting at Government Buildings, I accompanied Prime Minister Borne to Iveagh House where we both spoke at a conference to mark the 225th anniversary of the Year of the French, when forces of the French Republic sailed from La Rochelle to Killala help the Irish rebellion in 1798.

Ireland has enjoyed close economic, social and cultural ties with the French Republic for many years. Some 225 years ago in the Year of the French, French forces came to our aid in the 1798 rebellion, as the Taoiseach referred to. There are now 30,000 French citizens living and working in Ireland. It is therefore appropriate and timely to review the co-operation agreement between our two countries, which was signed in 2021. I welcome the plans announced to enhance energy co-operation, business links and cultural ties between Ireland and France. We like to believe we punch above our weight when it comes to international relations. France is a global power and under President Macron, it certainly punches in accordance with its weight in foreign affairs. In the Taoiseach's talks with the Prime Minister, Élisabeth Borne, were they able to agree on what now needs to be done regarding the crisis in Israel and Gaza? Like Ireland, the French President called for a humanitarian ceasefire early on in the crisis. Was there agreement on the need for a renewed political process to bring long-term peace and stability to the region based on a two-state solution? Did the Taoiseach get the impression from the Prime Minister that France will give decisive leadership in this regard?

While I am on my feet, I would like to warmly welcome the release of Irish-Israeli hostage Emily Hand. Her release represents a triumph for Irish diplomacy. Every effort must now be made to extend the truce and bring about the release of all of the Israeli hostages taken by Hamas and other militant groups.

The Israeli war cabinet minister, Yoav Gallant, recently said, "There will be a short pause and then we will continue operating with full military power." He also said, "Our strength will be greater, and it will take place throughout the entire strip.” Interesting that he referred to "the entire strip" because Israel has forced huge numbers of people to leave northern Gaza and go to southern Gaza. It has been made clear that after the pause, Israel will go into southern Gaza. It is saying the population should move west to Al-Mawasi which is a tiny strip of land where, by the way, there are zero hospitals. That would be an incredible disaster. Gallant spoke about "the entire strip". I wonder if that was a slip of the tongue. When the Taoiseach met the French Prime Minister, no doubt they discussed putting diplomatic pressure on Israel. I have to say that if we are talking about diplomatic pressure, the Government has been weak in its response to the fuss the Israeli state made about the Taoiseach's tweet. I think the Government was very weak in relation to that. Was there any discussion with the French Prime Minister about going beyond mere diplomatic pressure? Was there any discussion about real economic pressure that would bite, bear down on the Israeli state and force it to backtrack on what it has been doing - this genocide - over the last period of time? I would like to hear if there was any discussion on that.

In the Taoiseach's talks with the French Prime Minister, I wonder if there was any discussion about what was then an upcoming decision by the European Commission - since made - to effectively tighten the screws on Palestinian aid when Gaza has been reduced to rubble and people are left without food, water, and fuel? In the aftermath of 7 October, the European Commission announced it would review Palestinian development aid from the European Union. It completed that review, which found that existing safeguards "work well" and said that "no evidence has been found to date that money has been diverted for unintended purposes." Then why on earth is the Commission planning to impose stricter controls on an aid system that has not had any problems and when there has not been any diversion of funds? The consequence is that €39 million of money due to NGOs and civil society organisations is being held up until new paperwork is submitted. This money is urgently needed on the ground. This happens in the context whereby aid to Palestine has decreased dramatically since Hungary's Várhelyi took over as the relevant Commissioner and since the Commission President, Ursula von der Leyen, originally went to Israel and gave a green light for the genocidal policy that has been unleashed. I wonder whether the Taoiseach discussed it with the French Prime Minister and whether the Irish Government is opposed to this restriction.

In the 1980s Governments across the world stubbornly resisted the demand to impose sanctions on the apartheid South African regime for its horrible racist system. It took people power and the resistance of black people in South Africa to eventually force the world to recognise that apartheid South Africa had no place in the civilised world. When the Taoiseach is having discussions with the French Prime Minister or other European counterparts, is there any moment when he begins to wonder whether that analogy should apply to the apartheid state of Israel after what it has done over the past six weeks? For example, the deputy speaker of the Knesset said last week that "We are being too humane" in Gaza, and that they should burn it? This is the deputy speaker of the Israeli Parliament. Israeli ministers have described all Palestinians as "animals". It is official policy of the Israeli Government to starve the entire population. It has displaced - ethnically cleansed - more than a million Gazans in six weeks and killed nearly 20,000 of them.

Then, Israel hauled our ambassador in for reprimand after conducting a massacre and being accused by every human rights organisation worth its salt of war crimes, genocide and crimes against humanity not just during the last six weeks but for decades. Is there any little part of the Taoiseach and his EU counterparts that says there is something wrong with this state, it is not a normal state, that it is guilty of the most horrendous crimes and maybe we should consider taking the attitude we took to apartheid South Africa, given its crimes are actually worse? I honestly ask the Taoiseach because it beggars belief that Israel reprimanded us and still our Government will not take sanctions against it for the criminal activities in which it is engaged.

I recognise Deputy Haughey for talking about the Year of the French in 1798. It is fascinating how it still lives on in our folk memory even though it was a relatively small force and ultimately unsuccessful. It led to the creation of Ireland's first republic, the short-lived Republic of Connacht. We know from historical accounts that people were impressed to see a citizen army in operation in a way they had not seen previously. It helped inspire our own form of republicanism - genuine republicanism - in the following centuries.

Concerning my conversation with Prime Minister Borne, it was a few weeks ago, before the ceasefire was in place. Our focus was on a ceasefire rather than the medium or long term. It was also a day or two after, I think, she participated in the antisemitism march in Paris. We talked about that and the concerns we both have about rising antisemitism and rising Islamophobia. From the Irish Government's point of view, we very much welcome the ceasefire in Gaza. It has facilitated the release of hostages taken by Hamas and prisoners taken by Israel, many of whom are teenage boys, in some cases subject to administrative detention for throwing stones. It has also allowed humanitarian aid and supplies into the territory, which is really important. We are calling for an extended ceasefire so that all hostages can be released - all hostages should be released - civilians can get further relief and the killing can stop. When we say ceasefire, to be clear, we mean a ceasefire observed by all sides and parties in the conflict.

EU aid to Palestine has trebled. We increased our aid to the occupied Palestinian territories through UNRWA and other bodies. We are not in favour of new unnecessary restrictions on aid. We know from the aid we and the EU provide to the area that if there is evidence of it being somehow misappropriated, it is extremely weak. I welcome the report on that.

Concerning sanctions, I can only say what I said before. I do not believe sanctions work if they are unilateral. They would likely backfire because there would be retaliation, which is the truth. The whole point of one country imposing sanctions on another is that it should do more harm to the country on which you impose sanctions than to yourself. Sanctions can only work if they are done on a multilateral basis. They only worked in respect of South Africa because they were multilateral.

No, we discussed the need for a ceasefire. Thankfully, we have that now and it has facilitated the release of hostages and prisoners and allowed aid to get into Gaza. We did not talk about the medium or long term.

On the other matter, I spoke to our ambassador to Israel last night. She was one of a number of EU ambassadors summoned. I assure the Deputy that she was able to both explain and defend the position of the Irish Government on all of these matters.

I propose to take Questions Nos. 10 to 16, inclusive, together. A Policing Service for our Future is the Government’s plan to implement the report of the Commission on the Future of Policing in Ireland. Implementation of the plan is being overseen by a dedicated programme office in the Department of the Taoiseach and has entered the final consolidation phase, with many substantive reforms already attained. This phase is expected to conclude with the introduction of the enhanced governance and accountability framework set out in the Policing, Security and Community Safety Bill 2023 in the coming months. Major reforms to date include progressing the operating model for An Garda Síochána, which will enable a more visible, responsive and localised policing service to communities nationwide; recruitment of more than 3,300 Garda staff, which has resulted in the reassignment of many gardaí to front-line policing duties; distribution of nearly 14,000 digital communication devices, enabling front-line gardaí to perform their duties without returning to stations; implementation of new human rights structures, strategies and training across the organisation; and the introduction of a three-year Garda health and wellbeing strategy, which recognises the enormous stresses gardaí can face in the course of their work.

There has also been legislative reform. The landmark Policing, Security and Community Safety Bill 2023 provides for the most wide-ranging and coherent reform of policing in a generation. It is anticipated that this Bill will be enacted before the end of the year, with early commencement envisaged. The Garda Síochána (Digital Recordings) Bill concerns the use of recording devices, including body-worn cameras. In June, the Cabinet approved the drafting of a general scheme for facial recognition technology legislation. This new Bill will be standalone and deals with concerns raised on facial and object recognition technology and will allow for prioritisation of the enactment of the Recording Devices Bill 2022 before the end of the year. The Garda Síochána (Powers) Bill combines and modernises police powers of search, arrest and detention. In addition, the Garda Síochána (Functions and Operational Areas) Act came into law in 2022 to underpin the new operating model.

These developments represent only some of a wide range of actions completed or being progressed. The implementation group on policing reform is currently focused on arrangements for ensuring the smooth transition to new statutory governance and oversight arrangements. Policing reform has always been a live process and there has always been discretion to adapt to circumstances as need demands, particularly in the light of events such as the disorder in Dublin last Thursday. We have provided a further €10 million for Garda overtime in the city until the end of the year, which is being spent on high-visibility policing in the capital. The Minister for Justice has instructed her officials to include riot and violent disorder in the new facial recognition Bill, which will be ready to go to Government within weeks and will allow for rioters to be brought to justice more readily. We are also accelerating work to recruit more gardaí after the Covid-induced pause. There will be 700 to 800 new recruits this year and 800 to 1,000 next year. These and other actions by the Government show we will not be found wanting in support of An Garda Síochána as it fights crime and disorder.

In the wake of the unsettling events that unfolded in Dublin last Thursday, is it worth examining the Children Act 2001? It needs to be revised in light of the concerns that emerged. Video footage clearly depicts a mixture of individuals, both adolescents and adults, who are easily recognisable in appearance and clothing as well as the use of bicycles and electric scooters, engaging in an act of violence which is deeply disturbing. We now need to strengthen the Judiciary with the necessary tools to effectively punish minors under the age of 18 who are involved in violence and criminal incidents such as physical attacks on front-line gardaí or emergency services, as we witnessed last week. At present, minors under the age of 18 may perceive themselves as operating without the fear of consequences under current laws. While it is crucial that we promote tolerance from a young age, it is also essential that we create deterrents for adolescents who may be drawn into a life of crime, often influenced by adults via social media platforms. We need to strike a balance between leniency for those under 18 and more serious punishments for adults involved in serious violent crimes.

Referring to the riots, the Garda Commissioner said, "But we could not have anticipated that in response to a terrible crime, the stabbing of schoolchildren and their teacher, that this would be the response". For a casual observer of Ireland's far right that would be a naive statement. For a Garda Commissioner it is absolutely astounding. Ireland's racist and fascist extremists, and their organisations, have been watching and waiting for months for a tragedy they could exploit in order to do something like they did last Thursday night. I tell you this, Taoiseach, migrants would not underestimate the far right and what it is capable of. The LGBTQ+ community would not underestimate the far right and what it is capable of. Many workers, including library workers, would not underestimate the far right either. I do not believe that repression or a heavy line on law and order will solve this problem. However, I have no problem saying that if the Garda Commissioner believes half of what he said, then he is seriously out of touch.

You cannot talk about the reform of policing without reflecting on the events of last week. The entire city rejects the thuggery, violence and property damage that occurred. I do not think those who organised the protest can escape culpability either. For whatever reason, the State was not in a position to respond adequately. I hear the Taoiseach say that the Garda Commissioner will have public order units in place until at least Christmas. The very least the Government needs to do is ensure that the resources in place now to keep people safe and reassure them, and which should have been in place long before last Friday, are in place until we are able to restore Garda numbers. Despite its best efforts, the Government, even with the financial resources it has available, has not been able to recruit gardaí. It is time to look at the pay of gardaí. If we are going to ask them to stand in the face of a riot, we have to pay them properly.

On the issue of oversight and the use of force, gardaí constantly tell me they are afraid to act. We have to make sure they are enabled to do act without looking over their shoulders. At the same time, we must ensure that there is adequate accountability. In the context of restoring confidence in the city, it is important that we act quickly and ensure that the temporary measures, including the €10 million provided, are made more permanent until we can restore the numbers of gardaí in Dublin.

I am a father of three children, two of whom go to preschool. This is my first opportunity to speak since last week's events. It is any parent's worst nightmare to see that what unfolded last week actually happened. I express my sympathies to all of those people and families caught up in last Thursday's heinous attack. I agree with Deputy McAuliffe that there are many things on which we need to be more proactive. The provision of bodycams for gardaí, the use of facial and number plate recognition technology. What is the progress on legislation relating to the use of CCTV? I also reiterate what Deputy McAuliffe said about Garda concerns on having to look over their shoulder in how they conduct themselves and how they police. The use of reasonable force needs to be addressed. All of those grey areas and blurred lines need to be addressed in the coming period, because an adequate policing response is required.

There has been a suggestion from the Government that the problem with the policing on Thursday night in Dublin was that gardaí are in some way hesitant about the use of force. That struck me as strange. They were not hesitant about using force against striking Debenhams workers, who were overwhelmingly women. They were not hesitant about using force against the community of Rossport, County Mayo, when it was standing up to Shell. They were not hesitant about using force against many anti-water charges protesters. They were not even hesitant about using force against rough sleepers on Thursday night. It seems this hesitancy is only reserved for the far right. It seems that comes right from the top of An Garda Síochána, from an explicit strategy, according to the commissioners, of not "falling into the trap" of far-right protesters, and of using a softly, softly approach. What that has looked like is allowing far right agitators to disrupt people going about their work, escorting far right agitators into a library in Swords, County Dublin, past anti-fascist protesters, permitting them to harass pharmacists, permitting them to board buses and permitting them to harass homeless migrants. No new laws are needed. It is not a question of new hate speech laws. It is not a question of facial recognition technology. The people who incited the riot on Thursday night did so in their own names on social media, and are easily identifiable. There are now people mounting checkpoints in Dromahair, County Leitrim, asking people for their passports. That is not legal, and the Garda should be stopping it.

All of our hearts go out to the five-year-old girl and her carer who were the victims of a horrendous and tragic event. However, the expressions of bewilderment from the Government or An Garda Síochána about how the unfolding events could have happened are, to be honest, quite staggering. People, and not just us but others, who are watching the far right have been warning how dangerous these people are, and the agenda of violence, hate, racism and division they are actively trying to stoke. They are out for blood. What we saw the other day is a warning - a chilling warning. These people want to take it to the next level. Tens of thousands of workers who keep our health service going, who work in the shops and supermarkets, on building sites or driving buses are now living in fear. Working people are living in fear of these so-called patriots who do little or nothing to actually stand up for working people or engage in the fights they should be having over housing, the cost of living and health. No, their answer to every question is to target innocent migrants, people of different skin colour or sexuality or those who may be vulnerable in some way. They are preachers of hate and division. Our society needs to recognise that. It is not about new legislation. It is about recognising the specific and worrying threat of the far right and its fascist ideology.

I thank the Deputies for their contributions. Deputy Dillon asked about examining the Children Act. I am not aware of any plans to do so, but I will come back to him on that. However, the fact that we treat juveniles differently in the criminal justice system is not a bad thing, and it does not mean juveniles are immune from the law. They are accountable for their actions. That is why we have antisocial behaviour orders and the juvenile diversion programme. It is why we have Oberstown if detention is needed.

Deputy Barry again asked me to interpret the words of the Garda Commissioner. I am not able to interpret his words for him, or for anyone. He was probably referring to how the situation developed on the day, and not the fact it could not have happened. We have all been aware of violent protests in many places in the city, including on the outskirts of the city, and we know what the potential is. Last Thursday, I spoke at a business lunch and was back in the office that afternoon as news was coming through of the terrible stabbings in Parnell Square. The moment I heard it being reported that the assailant was an Algerian national, I was concerned there would be big trouble. I was in touch with the Minister for Justice about the matter within moments. Putting that information about was extremely irresponsible. We now know that some of the victims come from a migrant background. We know many of the people who intervened to save lives and stop it being worse are of a migrant background. While the current suspect is of a migrant background, he has spent more than 20 years in the country. He is an Irish citizen and is not known to the Department of Social Protection.

The more we find out about it, the harder it is to understand exactly what happened, but we need to find out what did and why.

Regarding Deputy O'Sullivan's question on the use of force, we ask gardaí to use all necessary force to do their job and also to protect themselves, which is also important. What none of us wants is the use of excessive force. For gardaí, it must be hard to get it right. How much force is the right amount of force to use and how does one make that decision in a rapidly developing situation when one does not necessarily know what is going on behind one or what is going on in other places? We have to make sure that they have the best equipment to protect themselves. Bodycams are a big part of that. The Minister for Justice's reform programme includes the latter. I hope we can have them very soon. CCTV is part of it as well. We have to make sure that they have the best possible training as well and that, if they do use necessary force, they are supported by Garda management and the Government. They will be, but I do not want anyone to get this wrong. If excessive force had been used - thankfully, it was not - we would probably be having a different conversation today.