Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 28 Nov 2023

Will the Minister of State give an overview of the progress made to date under national strategic outcome 8 of the national development plan and if he will make a statement on the matter with specific reference, if he can, to flood prevention schemes, given recent incidents of flooding in Cork and beyond.

National strategic objective, NSO, 8 relates to the transition to a low carbon and climate-resilient society. The next decade is critical in order to address the climate crisis and we have significantly stepped up our climate ambition by committing to reduce our overall greenhouse gas emissions. The Climate Action Plan 2023, which was published in December 2022, sets out the actions, measures, policies and plans to meet the emission reduction targets required by our carbon budgets and sectoral emission ceilings. The plan contains actions Ireland must implement to meet our emissions reduction targets and to achieve net zero emissions no later than 2050.

Over the period to 2030 an additional €5 billion of the expected €9.5 billion in additional carbon tax receipts will be invested in energy efficiency. Strategic investment priorities for the energy sector include supporting the delivery of offshore renewable energy, retrofitting homes and the installation of heat pumps. In September, my colleague, the Minister for the Environment, Climate and Communications, announced the provisional results of the third renewable electricity support scheme, RESS auction. RESS 3 builds on the successes of the first two onshore auctions. The volumes procured represent a 12% increase on current renewables, keeping Ireland on the right trajectory to achieve the targets set out in the Climate Action Plan 2023. In 2022, 27,200 home energy upgrades were supported by grant schemes and this year we have seen almost 39,000 home energy upgrades to the end of October. This is an increase of 112% on the same period of last year and above the overall target of 37,000 for 2023. More than 5,000 ha of Bord na Móna peatlands were rehabilitated last year as part of the enhanced decommissioning, rehabilitation and restoration scheme. That was funded via the national recovery and resilience plan as part of the EU Recovery and Resilience Facility. This is one of the largest peatland rehabilitation projects in Europe with more than 10,000 ha rehabilitated to date. Strategic investment priorities for transport include the transition to a low or zero emissions public bus fleet. To this end, 172 new electric buses for public service obligation, PSO, fleets were delivered in 2022, including 107 fully electric vehicles and 24 hybrids.

I thank the Minister of State for his response. NSO 8 covers a variety of topics. As I mentioned at the outset, the issues around flooding and flood prevention schemes are most pertinent to me. It is my understanding that is also included under NSO 8. If the Minister of State does not have the details of the 150 active schemes at the moment, I would appreciate if he could provide a breakdown as supplementary information, of how many of those schemes have commenced; how many are pending environmental impact assessments, EIAs or further EIAs; how many are out to public consultation; how many are caught up in planning permission and whether there are any judicial review challenges.

Will the Minister of State provide, by way of supplementary reply, any timeline for completion of those various flood relief schemes right across the country?

That is a very detailed supplementary question. The Deputy will appreciate that I do not have all the details to hand. I could not do justice to the question by answering it orally right now but I will provide all the column headings according to all the questions the Deputy has asked and will give him in tabulated form the answer to his question in consultation with my colleague, Deputy O'Donovan.

I appreciate that. I know the phrasing of the question is quite generic in nature. As recently as last Friday I was in Mallow town and had the opportunity to visit a number of one-stop shops that are providing services for people who are engaged in the process of retrofitting their houses. Even they noted when I was visiting them last Friday with Billy Kelleher that there is a significant uptake, as the Minister of State evidenced in his initial response. I will provide the questions I have outlined to the Minister of State in writing for the purposes of clarity. There is a common trend in here this evening, from listening to other Deputies, about how many schemes have been caught up in various delays. I would be interested in following up on this and I will provide the Minister of State with those specific questions.

The one-stop shops are now up to speed. We have delivered double the number of retrofits in this period of the year compared to the same period last year. We need to do that. The retrofit programme for the decade involves an exponential increase in the number of retrofits being delivered until we reach 500,000 homes retrofitted by 2030. We cannot do that without having a large programme of skill development at the same time. We expect to need 30,000 trained people to be able to deliver those retrofits every year. The Minister for higher education, Deputy Harris, has been delivering on what we asked him to do. We initially said 3,000 and he has been delivering more than 3,000 people skilled in retrofits. We have a clear programme and a clear objective of 500,000 people in warm cosy homes by 2030. Most of the money being spent is being spent on schemes to alleviate energy poverty so the money is targeted towards those people who need it most.

The Government has committed to €165 billion in capital investment through the NDP, which was published in 2021. As a percentage of national income, annual capital investment is now among the largest in the EU. In 2023, almost €13 billion will fund vital infrastructure in areas such as housing, transport, education, enterprise, sport and climate action. Achieving value for money and reducing cost and schedule overruns is a vital part of delivering the NDP. However, the Government and I acknowledge that the significant investment under the NDP does not come without delivery challenges.

As the Deputy knows, delivery of some NDP projects has been adversely impacted over the past three years as a result of the pandemic and the war in Ukraine. I am also acutely aware of the challenges the construction industry has faced with material price inflation, labour supply constraints and supply chain disruption. As a result, in order to safeguard the delivery of key NDP projects, in January of last year my Department introduced measures to address inflation for new contracts and tenders. Furthermore, in May 2022, a new set of measures to apportion additional inflation costs between the parties to public works contracts was introduced. These arrangements were then made permanent in July of this year, which allow for more appropriate risk sharing in the delivery of public works contracts. Nevertheless, no one is in any doubt that the need to ensure timely project delivery must be part of the Government’s focus to respond effectively to the pressing challenges of our time, particularly in areas like housing, health and climate.

The renaming of my Department as the Department of Public Expenditure, NDP Delivery and Reform has brought about a greater emphasis and mandate for the delivery of the NDP. In light of this new role, a review of the support structures and levers available across government to maximise delivery of projects was undertaken. As a result, a series of actions and reforms were identified as priorities to improve delivery of NDP projects, including reducing the administrative burden on Departments charged with infrastructure delivery. Earlier this year, I secured Government approval for six priority actions. This package represents a fresh approach to securing delivery as part of my Department’s enhanced remit around the NDP. I am confident that the combination of these actions outlined will boost the delivery of the critical infrastructure we need to support a growing economy and higher living standards for everybody who lives here.

I thank the Minister of State for that reply. Given the extensive nature of the national development plan, there are ample opportunities to slow down the plan depending on in whose interests it might be and there are ample opportunities to sidestep actions that might slow down the plan. The question to which I am seeking an answer is whether anybody has undertaken to identify those issues that do not clash with each other or impede the other and what action can be taken or has been taken to remove them from the role whereby they are likely to impact against the delivery of the entirety of the plan. The last part of the question is to ascertain if a priority list has been drawn up that must be passed within a specific time.

Earlier this evening I spoke about the ESRI review. Part of the renaming of the Department to include NDP delivery involves asking an external agency to look at the exact question the Deputy asked, namely, what the barriers are to NDP delivery. We have asked the ESRI to assess what constraints we are reaching, what capacity constraints we have, what changes we might need to make and how to avoid simply adding to inflation by spending more money. We have received that report from the ESRI. It is being assessed at the moment and we will publish it shortly. The focus on this is going to be things like changing the public spending code to make it less bureaucratic or faster to make decisions but also identifying which areas we can invest in that do not add to inflation, how we can avoid a skills shortage and how we can avoid putting money in and not getting a return.

I appreciate the Minister of State's candour. However, I get suspicious at times like this because hidden within the answer is a potential code to the effect that it will be decided in the interest of public spending, inflation etc. Some of those issues can also impact on inflation in a positive way from the point of view of the Government. There might be a possibility of identifying them with a view to picking out the ones that are most fundamental and necessary in the shortest possible time and ensuring there are no blockages like the Ceann Comhairle and I had in our county some years ago when a tiny bird or animal impacted on the Newbridge bypass and cost €25 million. It achieved nothing that I could see because he was only a small guy called the vertigo inquisitor. I do not know what that sounds like but I can only tell the Minister of State that I was on the local authority at the time and it caused some eyeballs to be raised, as the Ceann Comhairle well knows.

This relates to the measures the Minister of State outlined in his initial response that were taken to combat spiralling inflationary costs in the past year or 18 months. I think back to a project in my area. I will not identify the school but it was a school contract where the legislation provided for schools and other bodies to engage voluntarily in the process surrounding revised costs and the spiralling of inflationary costs for projects. Has the Department done any analysis on the number of schools or other public bodies that did not engage with that or did not engage with the developer, as in this case? I know it has turned one specific contractor in my part of Cork off doing any public contracts for the foreseeable future. Has any analysis been done on that?

I will start with Deputy Durkan. Certainly, there are some types of investment that are deflationary, such as providing more housing for example.

The delivery of the projects can help reduce inflation. There is a wide variety of inflationary effects depending on what you are investing in, and how much labour is involved is a part of it. That is the analysis we are looking at.

I think Deputy Durkan referred to what our previous Taoiseach, Bertie Ahern, called the swans and the snails interrupting infrastructure projects. In fact, we are looking at a much broader range of things, the public spending code and other constraints among them.

To turn to Deputy O’Sullivan, we changed our inflationary system to share the risk between the contractor and the person ordering the work. The reason for that is certain critical projects were likely to be unprofitable, get cancelled and have to go out for re-tender. We would end up paying more overall. Risk-sharing was a correct move. If the Deputy has a specific project we wants information on, he can contact me or if he wants statistics, he can contact my office.

A number of parameters are set out in our public spending code as to how the State makes decisions about spending money on behalf of our citizens. One deficiency in that code, which I raised recently at the Committee of Public Accounts, relates to how we factor in greenhouse gas emissions. When will the revised and increased carbon pricing be published? Is there any barrier to its timely publication?

As Ireland has committed to achieving ambitious greenhouse gas emission reduction targets, with key milestones in 2030 and 2050, the Government's assessment of any new investments it is considering making should consider the impact these investments will have on greenhouse gas emissions. Including a valuation of the cost that will be borne to eliminate any emissions a project may give rise to in an economic appraisal is a means of doing this. Placing a value on greenhouse gas emissions allows the economic appraisal to include the full impact of the benefits of projects that will reduce such emissions.

In 2019, my Department reviewed the methodology used to derive the shadow price of carbon and updated the values applied in public sector economic appraisal. However, since 2019 Ireland’s climate targets at both national and EU levels have increased significantly in ambition. Therefore, the national development plan review committed my Department to revising the shadow price of carbon in the infrastructure guidelines in light of Ireland's enhanced climate ambition.

At the request of my officials, the marine and renewable energy institute, MaREI, in UCC has carried out the analysis needed to inform this work. In addition, my officials have worked with the OECD to ensure the climate aspects of the infrastructure guidelines are robust and reflect best practice internationally. This work is complete and proposals for the revision of the shadow price of carbon are at the final stage of development internally.

That was an interesting history lesson on how and when we might arrive at something but I did not quite get a clear answer on when we actually will see it. One of the problems of dealing with pollution and its impact, be that carbon emissions or otherwise, is that while the benefits might be privatised, the costs are socialised. The use of our atmosphere is a classic case of tragedy of the commons, in that we are facilitating a fossil fuel society while outsourcing the impact of those emissions.

The Minister of State probably has a figure we will finally arrive at. I was looking at The Economist this week. The American Government puts the socialised cost at around $51. The US environmental protection agency puts it at $190. The EU ETS scheme is around €80. That is a really wide range and, depending on the number picked, will deliver wildly difficult outcomes in terms of what projects we decide to fund or not fund. When am I likely to see the shadow price of carbon?

The updated guidelines on the shadow price of carbon will be published by the end of the year. The Deputy discusses the different ways to measure the price of carbon. He is absolutely right. We could use the emissions trading scheme price, which changes all the time on international markets, or look at what the carbon tax is set at.

One thing to be considered is that it is not just one number. The Deputy said I probably had a number in mind that I would arrive at. In fact, there is a different price of carbon every year going into the future. As time goes on and we manage to decarbonise society, we start with the cheapest ways to do it. In the years ahead, it gets more and more expensive. Avoiding a tonne of carbon in 2030 is worth far more money than it is in 2023. The carbon tax is set to escalate. That is already in law. By 2030, it will be €100 per tonne. That is one price that can be used. The future price of an ETS allowance is another price that can be used.

The following is supplemental, so the Minister of State might not have it to hand. His senior Minister recently said the public spending code will be replaced by a set of infrastructure guidelines. Will the Minister of State confirm whether we are talking about an amendment to the public spending code or a wholesale rewriting of it?

Deputy Durkan’s comments were not about swans and snails; it was - I cannot remember - vertigo something or other. Notwithstanding those comments, Natural Capital Ireland, which I hosted recently for a briefing in the audiovisual room, has done good work on how we can turn. I talked about greenhouse gas emissions but there is also the impact of our public spending code and public projects on natural capital and the natural world. Natural Capital Ireland is doing interesting work on how we can translate the worth – if one can really translate it - of the vertigo integrator, I do not know what the hell-----

The public spending code is being revised, restructured and simplified. The infrastructure guidelines are being updated since they were last issued in 2019, the ones that relate to the shadow price of carbon. I think the Deputy is alluding to the shadow price of nature as well. Biodiversity has a value. That probably would have been a strange thing to say ten years ago but people understand now that nature is worth something, including in terms of our quality of life. If you have an economic project involving the destruction of some of our natural heritage, you have to work that into the plan and decide if it is worth it. It is not something you get for free. It is valuable to society. Everybody in Ireland puts a high value on nature and on access to forests, lakes, bogs and so on. It is a good point the Deputy raises and the value of biodiversity should be accounted for in the infrastructure guidelines.

Gabhaim buíochas. Tuigim go dtuigeann an tAire Stáit an méid a tharla i nGaillimh le roinnt laethanta agus seachtainí anuas agus ní rud nua é seo. Tá a fhios agam go raibh sé anseo agus i nGaillimh, fiú amháin, nuair a bhí an fhadhb sa Chlochán.

I seek an update on Galway flood defences. I am aware the Minister of State has been in Galway in relation to the most recent floods and that he also came when Clifden was hit badly.

I propose to take Questions Nos. 32, 42 and 61 together.

I saw at first hand when I visited County Galway recently, following the flooding caused by Storm Debi, the devastation and impact it has had. The Government has assessed the risk to those communities from the most significant flood events. CFRAM, Ireland’s largest study of flood risk, was completed by the OPW in 2018. An output of CFRAM, the Government’s flood risk management plans, provide the evidence for a proactive approach to designing and constructing flood relief schemes for the most at-risk communities.

Across the county and city of Galway, there are a range of schemes at stage 1, working towards a design option. Galway City Council is leading Coirib go Cósta, the city flood relief scheme, and schemes for Gort lowlands and Clifden are being led by Galway County Council. The Office of Public Works is leading the Ballinasloe flood relief scheme, which is scheduled to present the emerging preferred option in early 2024.

The process of redefining the scope for the Coirib go Cósta scheme, as I said to Deputy Connolly a while ago, has taken longer than first envisaged due to the complexity and increase in scale of the scheme. It has been carried out in consultation with the project steering group by the appointed engineering and environmental consultants who are progressing the scheme. A draft revised scope reflecting additional works for the scheme has been presented to Galway City Council. This revised scope has been reviewed by the Coirib go Cósta steering group members and agreement has been reached.

In parallel the consultants have submitted a revised programme incorporating the additional scope and this programme is currently being reviewed by the Coirib go Cósta steering group members. The city council has been advised that, subject to a contract variation, it expects the revised programme should be available by mid-December 2023. During my recent visit to the city, I requested that a meeting be held between Galway City Council and local representatives - to include the council and Oireachtas representatives - to update them all on the scheme's progress. This is scheduled to happen shortly.

Investment in these schemes is brought through the flood relief measures under the National Development Plan 2021-2030. This has allowed the OPW to treble the number of flood relief schemes nationally at design, planning, and construction to some 100 schemes. Nationally, 53 schemes have been completed, including Claregalway and Dunkellin in County Galway, at a cost of some €550 million which are protecting more than 12,000 properties and are an economic benefit to the State in damage and losses avoided, estimated to be in the region of €2 billion. Today, work to protect 80% of all at-risk properties nationally is completed or under way. Commencing on all flood relief schemes identified by the CFRAM flood risk management plans is constrained by the availability of the specialist engineering resource required. The Government is committed to delivering these flood relief schemes including the proposed project for Portumna. The OPW is working closely with the local authorities, including Galway City Council and Galway County Council, and at all times strives to expedite and progress capital flood relief works with the minimum delay within available resources.

Since 2009, the OPW has approved funding under the minor flood mitigation works of some €11.4 million to County Galway for some 237 projects including a project for Clarinbridge. In addition, the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment is responsible for the emergency humanitarian support scheme to support businesses, community, voluntary and sporting organisations. These schemes were activated in County Galway following the severe weather conditions caused by Storm Debi. Under this scheme, emergency humanitarian contributions may be made available towards the costs of returning business premises and community, voluntary and sporting bodies to their pre-flood condition including the replacement of flooring, fixtures and fittings and damaged stock. Humanitarian assistance for homeowners is available through the Department of Social Protection.

I know the Aire Stáit saw the complete and utter devastation in Galway and the very real-life impact it has had both on businesses and on the wider community, within the city and county. The stark thing that stood out to me when speaking to one particular business owner was that she said that this may not have happened before or it may not have happened to this extent before, but we know this will happen again and asked what can we do to ensure it does not. Her business was completely destroyed in terms of what had been there previously. That was something that was not expected and was not anticipated. This is only really the start of our winter season, of our storm season and of the impact it will continue to have.

It is welcome that the Minister of State, Deputy O'Donovan, stated there will be a meeting between Galway City Council and the public representatives. One of the crucial things is to get as much information out to the public, specifically the members of the public who are impacted by this so that is welcome. He mentioned stage one, when does he expect that to be completed? I understand he mentioned mid-2023 at one point and I was not sure if it was related to that specific thing because it is the end of 2023 now. He also mentioned that a delay is caused by a shortage of specialist engineers. I assume he is working on trying to recruit those specialist engineers and I am aware of that. How many of those types of specialist engineers do we have at this moment across the State who can currently work on this? Are they specific to geographical regions or can they insist on other areas?

I appreciate the Minister of State answered some of this question earlier on but I welcome the opportunity to tease things out. There are five stages. This was all set out to me over the years. On stage one, the options assessment began in late 2020. Then it will move up to stage five for handover in 2029. Where are we at in that process? I welcome that Storm Debi has been taken into account but we had a huge flood in 2018. People in the Claddagh and everywhere were affected. In addition, Oranmore and Clarinbridge were affected. At what stage will we take a more expansive approach to this? Storms are coming practically every year - certainly in 2018 it was huge - and in between we had storms going back to 2009 and people in the Claddagh were flooded out of it. If we wait every year for each storm at what stage will the delays stop? Will we have a roll-out? Does the Minister of State have dates for me?

I thank both Deputies and I know they have both raised this with me previously. I know they both have a keen interest in it, as do the other Deputies in the city. Deputy Farrell is right, the devastation was catastrophic. It blew a wall out in front of Oranmore railway station. It made smithereens of it. Really, it is amazing there was no loss of life and were it not for the fact a shop worker was pinned between a fridge and a glass door in a shop in Clarinbridge he probably would have drowned inside the shop. Anecdotally, from what I have heard - and it is on the basis of receiving information from people in the dead of night as opposed to during the day - it was almost like a tsunami, the power of this event that came in. I understand there is frustration and there is frustration in an awful lot of places around the country. We have to make sure that first, we will get planning permission, and second that we will get planning permission for a scheme that will actually make a difference to the people of the Claddagh, of the area around the Spanish Arch, of the town and all of the parts of Galway that are affected. As I said already the programme for the scheme required a revision, following early indications, in the hydrological and hydraulic modelling.

Deputy Farrell asked whether there was a shortage in the skills available. There absolutely is. It is not just in the public sector, it is in the private sector. It is not only in Ireland. There is a dearth of this available skill set across Europe. Even to try to get people to come in from abroad is very difficult. That is one factor.

The other factor is, and Deputy Connolly alluded to it, we have now seen a major Atlantic storm that has wreaked havoc on the city, yet again. Luckily there has been no loss of life. An awful lot of damage has been done - public and private - and we want to incorporate that into the modelling. That will not take forever and a day and this is why I was anxious that when I met Galway City Council that it would bring the public representatives - council and Oireachtas - up to speed as quickly as possible around the timeframes. I know what stage one means and I know there are five stages, and that stage five is the handover and that is the ultimate point. We will hand over in Athlone, County Westmeath this year. I am reluctant to give a date beyond the ones I have given already for good reason, and I think Deputy Connolly accepts my bona fides in that, other than to say this is a huge priority for us. We met all of the local authorities last week - Galway, Louth, Wexford, Cork city and county - that have had the worst impacts of the storms that have happened only in the first four weeks of the winter. We still have not even gotten into the depths of the winter and we have had six named storms. I am particularly worried about Galway. I am particularly worried about Limerick - my nearest city - and about Cork and Dublin. These are huge urban conurbations. They are not defended and they need to be defended.

The Aire Stáit is correct in saying it was a tsunami and the concern is obviously that there will be more tsunamis and that they will be worse. As he mentioned, we were very lucky in Galway that there was no loss of life. We need to do everything in our power to ensure the people and the communities of Galway are protected going forward. I note he said there were not enough of these specialists, particularly the specialist engineers, both on a national level and on an international level. Does he know if we are training these specialist engineers ourselves at the moment and how many there are? Does there perhaps need to be a focus on it because as that particular business owner said to me this will only get worse so how do we ensure we have the people trained up? In the here and now we want to get this progressed as quickly as possible. However, we also need to look at the long term or fadtéarmach to make sure we have specialists who are able to do the work going forward. As a result of that I hope these issues will not take so long to be rectified. I welcome what the Minister of State is saying and we do need to see as much of that information go out to the general public. The general public will of course want things done as quickly as possible but there is obviously a realisation as well that it needs to be done to the best of the ability to ensure the safety of the people of the area.

While looking at these things on a long-term basis to ensure people's safety, what is being done on a short-term basis to protect communities while we wait on longer term measures to be enacted?

There is a certain frustration on my part because I have borne with the process for a long time. The Minister of State referred to the fact that, following the completion of the hydrological and hydraulic modelling, significantly more defences were necessary. That was way back in January 2023. We knew this even before Storm Debi and before that again because there was major flooding in 2018 and in between. The lack of skills was never mentioned, the Minister of State will agree, in any reply to date. That is a new burden. Up to this point, it was simply that it was progressing too slowly and each year there was a new obstacle to overcome, in addition to the storms. The money involved was €9.5 million. What will it cost now? What will it cost between now and when it is ready? The original date, as I said, was 2029. Obviously, it is going to be later. We will be paying out all the time and terrible damage will be suffered by homeowners and businesspeople. Surely, at some stage, somebody must say what needs to be done and how quickly and provide a revised timescale and revised figure. There must be consultation with the public. Three days were promised - there was one day two and a half years ago and there have been no updates. We need to bring people with us. They need to know what we are doing.

The last point is exactly the reason I asked Galway City Council, the steering group and the Office of Public Works to engage in the first instance with Deputies and public representatives to dispel misinformation, of which we heard a lot in this House earlier in a different arena. The Deputy is right about bringing the public with us. Other public infrastructure from Galway city towards Salthill will be built in the not-too-distant future. It may have to be incorporated into this. I was on my holidays before I got sick during the summer. A woman running a shop in Salthill selling bric-a-brac for children recognised me and said "You are the flood man, are you not?" I was kind of off duty and I asked why. She said, "Whatever you are doing here, whether it is the greenway, cycleway or flood relief scheme, will you do it once and do it right and keep the water out of my shop?" I agree with the Deputy about the level of frustration. I would love to see the works commence but I cannot commence the works until I get planning permissions and have the proper hydraulic modelling done. There is frustration around the delays. It is not a shortage of money. I have no shortage of money. The biggest shortage I have is the ability to spend it. I must say that uniquely as a Minister of State.

On skill sets, the chairman of the OPW and I met the Minister for higher and further education about this matter. We raised the issue, whether through Engineers Ireland or directly through higher education organisations like ATU and the University of Galway, to encourage young men and women into civil engineering disciplines. This will not just affect our ability to deliver these schemes in Galway, the Gort lowlands or Clarinbridge. By the way, the chances of winning the lotto once is one in however many million. To win it twice in three or four years, which happened in Clarinbridge, is off the scale. We want to encourage people into the discipline of civil engineering because it is a great career. As well as that, we need that expertise. The Deputy knows as well as I do how long it takes to train a civil engineer. It takes a minimum of four years in university and then they have to serve their time after that. These are not skill sets we will magic up. However, that will not deter us.

There is a revised schedule for mid-December 2023, which is effectively now. Once Galway City Council has scheduled a meeting with Deputies, I have no problem attending a meeting with Galway City Council and Oireachtas Members because I am acutely aware of the issues, which are similar to those in Cork city. We have finally made progress in Cork city. It is a different part of the country. We are making progress and will finally, years later, be able to go out to tender, for instance, on Morrison's Island, the core of the city centre in Cork, not too dissimilar to the situation in Galway. These are concerning issues for me. If it helps, I will gladly meet public representatives with Galway City Council, the OPW and the steering committee to see what can tangibly be done around the timeframes for these plans.

This question relates to flooding in Crossmolina. I know the Minister of State is familiar with the town. I have raised the issue with him a number of times. Will the Minister of State provide an update on the flood relief scheme for Crossmolina? People have seen damage to their homes and lives, just like the businesses in Cork, Galway and other places. They remember the destruction the community faced in 2015. When will construction commence on the River Deel flood relief scheme?

Although this question is about flooding, it is not for my colleague, Deputy O'Donovan, to answer because it is a question for the consenting authority, who is the Minister, Deputy Donohoe.

I refer to previous updates on this matter given to the House regarding the consent process for the River Deel flood relief scheme, prepared by the Office of Public Works under the Arterial Drainage Acts. The Minister for Public Expenditure, NDP Delivery and Reform is the consenting authority for flood relief schemes, which are prepared by the Office of Public Works under the Arterial Drainage Acts. In accordance with the European Union (Environmental Impact Assessment) (Arterial Drainage) Regulations 2019, the OPW has sought consent for the River Deel flood relief scheme. The regulations mandate that, as the consenting authority, the Minister undertake an independent assessment of the environmental impact statement for the Crossmolina flood relief scheme. Section 7E(4) of the European Union (Environmental Impact Assessment) (Arterial Drainage) Regulations 2019 provides that there is access to sufficient expertise to examine an environmental impact assessment report submitted by OPW. In accordance with these requirements, the Department has appointed independent environmental consultants to review submissions received during the periods of public consultation and to carry out any necessary environmental assessments as required by EU directives. Following the initial period of public consultation, held between 1 December 2020 and 11 January 2021, the Department sought additional information regarding the scheme from the OPW, as provided for under Section 7(4)(b) of the European Union (Environmental Impact Assessment) (Arterial Drainage) Regulations 2019. In July 2021, the Office of Public Works submitted this information to the Department. A second period of public consultation was then held, as legally required when supplementary information of this type is received. That began on 6 May 2022 and finished on 1 July 2022. The environmental experts retained by the Department then examined the information received and recommended that, in order to reach a full, reasoned conclusion of the environmental impacts of the scheme, additional supplementary information should be sought. This supplementary information was requested from the OPW in July this year. The OPW supplied this supplementary information to the Department on 17 November and it is currently being examined, as required by the regulations.

I know the Minister of State will agree that this has gone on for far too long. He referred to 17 November. I was told this scheme would start this year. Going forward, from 17 November, with the full information being there, when will it be signed off? When will construction start? There needs to be clear communication with the people of Crossmolina. The Minister of State knows what happened there in 2015 and that they have been watching the floods happening all over the country in recent weeks. Businesses have stocked up for Christmas and they are scared of their lives that they will lose all their stock. Many of them do not have insurance because of what happened before. The stress of all of this on top of everything else is too much for businesses to bear. When will construction begin?

I appreciate and understand the feelings of Deputy Conway-Walsh's constituents on this matter. It has taken a long time to reach consent for this scheme because it is such a large scheme and has to be done under the Arterial Drainage Act. We have to follow the law. The role the Minister is playing is similar to the role of An Bord Pleanála. We are at the stage, having received final reports from the OPW, that those reports need to be assessed by ecological experts and outside consultants. That is required by law. They have been hired. Work will take several months to complete. When I have further updates for the Deputy I will make sure they are sent to her directly. I understand, from the point of view of her constituents, that this is causing stress and it needs to happen as soon as possible. It also needs to happen in line with the law.

I completely understand that but we are standing here after 11 p.m. on a Tuesday eight years after that flooding happened.

I was told early this year that it would start before the end of the year. Why was I given that information when I am now being told it will take several more months? It is extremely difficult for people to understand that the pillars are being moved all of the time. If the Minister of State is now saying it will take several months, will we still be in a situation where we are asking if it is even going to happen in 2024? We are then talking about a four year project, if it will be 48 months from then, and it will be 2030 before this happens. It is wholly unacceptable. I will be honest. If this were on this side of the country, where we are now, I do not think we would be waiting eight years for it. It is not acceptable. If it is not acceptable for here or anywhere else, it is not acceptable for Crossmolina.

I agree it takes too long to reach decisions on these schemes. It is similar to a planning application. An application is made, and there is a period of time for submissions and public consultation. If additional information is required, we have to go back out, take submissions and listen to the public again. When the public consultation periods and additional information are over, the application has to considered by experts. That is required by the law. The reason we have to stick to the law is he recent experience with the River Bride scheme in Blackpool, County Cork. This decision was made by the Minister, but was challenged in the second half of 2021 by judicial review. This necessitated a pause in reaching a ministerial decision on Crossmolina to consider the legal arguments and associated impact on the confirmation process. The Department ultimately conceded on the single ground relating to public consultation procedures in January 2022. We do not want to see that happen again in Crossmolina. We do not want to see a judicial review happen. We need to make sure we take into account the lessons from the last scheme in Blackpool so it does not happen again in Crossmolina.

There is currently legislation to amend the Civil Service Regulation Acts. This was initiated in 2018 and is only now being brought to the committee. This legislation, if it is ever progressed by government, does not address the issue of accountability of most senior civil servants. Does this Government have plans to legislate to bring senior civil servants under the standard disciplinary measures of the Civil Service?

The current Civil Service disciplinary code applies to all civil servants. The code sets out the arrangements for dealing with disciplinary matters in the Civil Service. It is ensures that all civil servants are aware that if there is a failure to adhere to the required standards of conduct, work performance and attendance, the disciplinary procedure set out in the code will apply. Senior civil servants, including Secretaries General are subject to the Civil Service disciplinary code, apart from three particular sanctions which they are excluded from under the legislation. The current position is that sanctions Nos. 10, 11 and 12 of the Civil Service disciplinary code do not apply to Secretaries General because of their legislative exemption, but the other sanctions in the disciplinary code do apply to them.

In terms of legislation, as the Deputy is aware, on 11 April 2018 the Government agreed the general scheme and heads of Bill to amend the Civil Service Regulation Acts 1956-2005 and the Public Service Management Act 1997. Pre-legislative scrutiny was held on 28 June 2018. The policy intention of this Bill remains as was approved in 2018. This legislation is significantly advanced and the Bill is on the list of priority legislation for publication in the current session.

The performance of senior civil servants is reviewed annually using the performance review process for senior public service and the performance review group, PRG, for officials at Secretary General grade or equivalent. The performance review process was rolled out to all Secretaries General of Government Departments and offices in 2017. This process sets expectations and holds senior public servants accountable for the achievement of individual key objectives and deliverables.

As things currently stand, Ministers are limited in their ability to hold Secretaries General to account. The Civil Service Regulation (Amendment) Act 2005 expanded the remit of the disciplinary process, bringing secretaries general somewhat under the umbrella of the process. However, the extent to which they are under the remit is limited because the legislation sets the government rather than the Minister as the appropriate authority and provides an exemption for government-appointed civil servants from certain disciplinary steps. This has the result of confusing the chain of command and means that the senior civil servants are not in any practical sense under the same rules as the vast majority of civil servants. This loophole could easily be closed. The Minister could make the appropriate authority for disciplinary measure against senior civil servants. We need to clarify and simplify the chain of command and bring Secretaries General and other senior civil servants fully under all disciplinary measures of the Civil Service.

Listening to this debate people may get the impression that Secretaries General are not subject to any kind of disciplinary framework or oversight. That is not true. Under the Civil Service disciplinary code 13 separate sanctions are outlined covering everything from verbal warning, written warning, final written warning, extension of the period of validity of a warning, deferral of an increment, debarment from competitions, withdrawal of concessions, reassignment to different location or different duties and withdrawal of allowances. All of those apply to any civil servant whether Secretary General or not. However, there are three sanctions, placing a civil servant on a lower rate of remuneration, reducing the civil servant to a specified lower grade or rank and suspending the civil servant without pay. These three sanctions do not apply to Secretaries General as the law currently stands. The final sanction, sanction 13, is dismissal and a Secretary General can also be dismissed.

The elements not available to the Minister in respect of the Secretary General are the lower rate of remuneration, the reduction to the lower grade and suspension without pay. The final level of sanction, as the Minister of State has said, is dismissal, which is a matter for government. The finance committee was informed by the Department of public expenditure and reform that, despite the Civil Service Regulation (Amendment) Act 2005 currently under examination with regard to how disciplinary matters operate more broadly there is no intention to address the Secretaries General. I think this is about accountability. There is no reason for Secretaries General to be handled in any way differently. It is important because the buck stops with the Minister. The Minister is the one who has to face the public and be accountable. If you have somebody else in that Department making decisions and all that, and they are not accountable with the person who has to interface with the public there is something wrong and there is an opportunity here to rectify that.

If anything, the Secretaries General should be held to a higher standard than other Civil Servants because they have so much influence and because they are paid so much, and because they are people who set an example for everybody else. Often in an organisation, the personality, behaviour and character at the head of it flows down and is reflected in the behaviours of all the people who report to that person and so on. It forms the character of the organisation. That is why the performance management review group was set up in the Civil Service a number of years ago to specifically manage the performance of Secretaries General and to have an accountability framework so there was an organisation keeping track of their behaviour. As I said, the legislation to reform the Civil Service sanctions and penalties is set for priority legislation in this term. It is open to the Deputy, if she feels there is some way she would like to amend it, that we will have a full and open process on that. I am sure many Ministers and ex-Ministers will have views on how the rules should be changed.

The implementation of specific recommendations, awards or adjudications from the Labour Court or other equivalent industrial relations bodies, are matters for the relevant employer or Department, as appropriate, in the first instance. The Minister for Public Expenditure, NDP Delivery and Reform has responsibility for the terms and conditions of civil servants, as provided for under section 17 of the Civil Service Regulation Act.

As the Deputy may be aware, civil servants do not have access to the Labour Court. Civil Service industrial relations are managed through a mechanism known as the scheme of conciliation and arbitration for the Civil Service. In addition, the Minister for Public Expenditure, NDP Delivery and Reform has the central role in delivering public service pay agreements.

Public service pay has been governed by a system of collective agreements since the Croke Park agreement was negotiated in 2010. These collective agreements have helped to ensure that public pay is managed in a sustainable, affordable and orderly manner. The agreements have recognised the importance of stable industrial relations and have supported the maintenance of a well-managed industrial relations environment.

The current public service pay agreement, which all public service unions and associations have signed up to, is Building Momentum - A New Public Service Agreement 2021-2022. This agreement was extended in August 2022 to December 2023. There are a number of features in the Building Momentum agreement that I would like to take the opportunity to highlight. It provides for headline benefits over its lifetime, amounting to 9.5%, which include both general round increases and sectoral bargaining. In respect of public servants at lower pay levels, the extended Building Momentum provides for increases of 12.5% over its lifetime, which is just over 4% per annum. The agreement also sets out a new way to address sectoral issues known as sectoral bargaining. The purpose of the sectoral bargaining process is to deal with outstanding adjudications, commitments, recommendations, awards and claims. An amount equal to 1% of the pay bill was provided for this purpose. The parties agreed that no cost-increasing claims for improvements in pay or conditions of employment can be progressed outside of sectoral bargaining. Parties also committed to the ongoing reform and development of the public service, to industrial peace and to ensuring that problems in respect of matters covered by the agreement were dealt with in an effective way through dispute resolution procedures.

I thank the Minister of State and note his response. The majority of public sector pay is dealt with collectively, and I understand the logic and rationale behind that. From the outset, I wish to say that I have a family member who is involved in a pay dispute.

I wish to discuss the pay disparity between medical scientists and clinical biochemists. Medical scientists are paid approximately 7% or 8% less than their biochemist counterparts. They were involved in industrial action, but recently paused it and returned to the Labour Court for subsequent negotiations. This leads me to the Devine report, which was published this year and made a variety of recommendations. I may get to the report in my next contribution.

What the Minister would say is that this is primarily a matter for the Minister for Health, as I presume the HSE is the employer. Since the person is a public sector employee but not a civil servant, he or she is likely to be able to raise his or her dispute through the Labour Court system. The Minister for Public Expenditure, NDP Delivery and Reform would not be the deciding person. Rather, this would be a matter for the chief executive of the HSE, reporting to the Minister for Health. I advise the Deputy to speak directly to that Minister on this matter either at an Oireachtas committee or during oral questions.

I thank the Minister of State for that advice.

The medical scientists’ group engaged with the Labour Court in good faith. Out of that engagement, the Devine report was commissioned. It categorically and unequivocally stated that in the overwhelming majority of work in both professions, there existed no evidence of a material distinction between the grades’ roles and responsibilities. The report went further and suggested that the salary scale of staff in senior grade positions from both professions be adjusted to reflect same. The frustration for medical scientists is that there is a report, which they engaged on in good faith, dating back to January 2023 in which this was one of the main recommendations, yet here we are towards the tail end of the year and we have made little or no progress on the issue. This dispute has been going on for a long time.

I will take the Minister of State’s advice and raise the matter with the Minister for Health.

I am glad that the Deputy is going to take it up directly with him. Everyone agrees that the Labour Court and the WRC have served us well. There are a relatively small number of industrial disputes in Ireland and those that do happen are often resolved amicably. The Labour Court plays a role in being able to decide and recommend on what is fair. It is then up to the employer and employees to work that out and come to an agreement, follow that advice or see how it should be followed.

This matter is primarily one for the Minister for Health. I would advise the Deputy to speak to him.

I propose to take Questions Nos. 37, 39 and 56 together.

As Deputy Stanton is aware, Cork County Council is leading the design of the Midleton flood relief scheme and, in 2017, appointed engineering and environmental consultants. The process follows a number of stages from feasibility through design, planning, detailed design and construction. It is important that the work be done correctly and achieve its objectives. Extensive and detailed technical analysis is required to establish the most appropriate solution from a range of possible mitigation options.

Midleton has proven to be one of the most complex schemes, with flooding coming from four different sources. The preferred scheme has now been identified, with a total project budget of €50 million. When complete, it will provide protection to 580 properties.

At this time, an assessment of the recent flood event is being undertaken and will provide further evidence to support the preferred option for a scheme for Midleton, allowing the consent process for the scheme to commence. This assessment will identify any interim measures that can be progressed in advance of the scheme. The Office of Public Works and local authorities do not have powers to expedite these schemes arising from damage caused by flood events, and the delivery of all schemes must meet regulatory requirements.

I met Cork County Council in the flooding’s immediate aftermath. The OPW has pledged its support by way of interim measures that we believe might be able to be facilitated if Cork County Council works up the requisite application under what is called the minor works scheme. We discussed this at length in Cork County Hall.

Perhaps the Deputy has a supplementary question he wishes to put to me.

The concern is that if this happens again, the town could be finished. It is that serious. The interim measures are urgent but the completion of the scheme is vital and needs to be accelerated. People are saying that it might be years before it is completed.

There were proposals in respect of Castlemartyr, which relates to my other question. Those proposals were never implemented. Will the Minister of State check on those and see what can be done?

This is serious and urgent. Lives and livelihoods are at stake.