Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 16 Nov 2023

The issue I am raising is dental services in Laois and in Offaly, which are bad in both counties. The service in Laois is the most chronic, as far as I can ascertain, in the State.

Dental services are important for oral health. If oral health is not good, general health is not good and it leads to problems down the line. This week, the Committee of Public Accounts, of which I am Chairman, received figures from the HSE, which show that the number of extractions under the dental treatment services scheme, DTSS, last year was 87,558. There were surgical extractions numbering 20,764. The fact that surgical extractions are necessary shows that we have serious problems in this State. The number of fillings provided under the scheme was 86,000.

It is clear that preventative action is not being taken. A generation is growing up without having any proper oral health checks or follow-up treatment done. This is a serious matter. The situation has deteriorated. Despite being rated one of the richest countries in the world and one of the best in Europe, we have the worst health system in terms of dental health.

I raised this issue when the Taoiseach was Minister for Health. I remember speaking to him about it inside and outside the Chamber. I am concerned about this issue, which is one I feel passionately about. I hope the Minister of State at the Department of Health, Deputy Rabbitte, will join me in trying to fix it.

There is no quick solution but it is clear that we are relying on a failed model in which we get contractors to do this work. Their fees have increased. I checked this afternoon with my secretary in Portlaoise and there is not one dentist in County Laois who will take patients under the DTSS. There is one who has some existing clients but that dentist will not take new patients. I am not blaming the individual in question who cannot handle any more patients.

The figures we got this week show there are 71 DTSS contracts in community healthcare organisation, CHO, 8. They are not in Laois. There are few of them in Offaly. I have asked for more detailed information on this.

There is no follow-up being done. On the schools scheme, of which I have first-hand experience in my family, children are not being seen in primary school. I raised this previously and will continue to do so until action is taken on it. I was seen in third class. I can remember well being terrified going to the dentist but we saw a dentist in third class. Those who needed fillings got them, as this anyone who needed an extraction. Many years later, children are not being seen until third year in secondary school, if they are lucky, although it is often fifth year. Children of 16 and 17 years of age are only being seen now. That is a problem because they may need extractions. Losing teeth is not preventative action. The Minister of State and I know the effects that this is having on their health. We have to try and fix this problem.

Efforts have been made to recruit but it is difficult to recruit dentists. They are being recruited abroad. We are training them but not employing them. Young graduate dentists need to see there are opportunities and a career path. We need to fix this by having a public dental system. I am not being ideological about this. I am only being practical. We cannot rely on the model we have.

I am taking this debate on behalf of my colleague, the Minister for Health. I thank the Deputy for the opportunity to address the issue of dental services for children and the dental treatment services scheme in Laois and Offaly.

The HSE public dental service provides dental care for children up to 16 years of age. This includes screening and necessary treatment for children at ages corresponding to second class, sixth class and, subject to capacity, fourth class. Emergency care is also provided for children up to 16 years of age.

At the end of July this year, the HSE had 103 whole-time equivalents providing dental services in CHO 8 across orthodontist, dentist, dental nurse and hygienist grades, an increase of five whole-time equivalents since May 2023.

The Department of Health engages with the HSE on an ongoing basis to understand and address any challenges arising in the provision of public dental services. The Minister has been assured by the HSE that it is continuing to restore dental screening and treatment to children up to 16 years of age through prioritising clinical treatment and patient groups and reallocating clinical resources according to greatest need.

The dental treatment services scheme provides dental care, free of charge, to medical card holders aged 16 and over. Services available annually and on demand include the examination, including preventative advice, two fillings, emergency extractions and a scale and polish. More complex care, such as dentures and a broader range of treatments for patients with additional needs and high-risk patients, are available subject to HSE approval.

In May 2022, the Minister for Health approved measures providing for increased preventative care, and increased the fees paid to dentists and most treatment items by 40% to 60%. Fees paid to dentists for DTSS care are aligned with other European countries which provide comparable public dental care. The number of patients and treatments have been increasing since the measures were introduced. Comparing the claims made by the DTSS contractors nationally from January to October 2023, 142,450 additional treatments have been provided under the DTSS, with more than 25,600 extra unique patients treated when compared to the same period last year. This includes an extra 870 patients in the Laois-Offaly area who accessed care, and an additional 3,524 treatments that were provided. HSE data indicate there are ten contractors operating in the DTSS in Laois-Offaly and all ten submitted claims in September 2023.

However, the Minister is aware that medical card holders in some areas continue to have difficulty accessing care. Where access to a dentist is difficult, local HSE services makes a list of DTSS contracts available to medical card holders. In exceptional circumstances, the HSE assists patients to access emergency dental treatment by directly contacting private contractors or arranging for treatments to be provided by HSE-employed dentists. In the longer term, the Minister recognises the need for oral healthcare needs to be modernised in line with best international evidence and practice, as set out in the national oral health policy, Smile agus Sláinte. This work is under way for children aged from birth to seven years, using €4.75 million worth of funding awarded in budget 2023.

I thank the Minister of State for her reply. I will deal with the issue of school dentistry first. The problem is that the children are not being seen. In Laois, the school year being completed is 2019-20. According to the previous paragraph in the document that I got, this refers to sixth class, which means that the children are in third year or they are moving into fifth year. I can tell the Minister of State I have first-hand experience with a family member and the children of neighbours living around us who were seen in fifth year. That is not satisfactory. They have to be seen in primary school. I acknowledge the Minister of State is logical about these things and she is interested in primary care. This needs to be done in primary level for preventative treatment. It is too late by the time they get to secondary school.

The Minister of State outlined figures and the HSE will provide them, but in Laois there is not one dentist, and I defy anybody who says otherwise. We have done an extensive trawl and phoned around every dentist in the county. There is no dentist in Laois who will take a new patient under the DTSS. In emergencies, we do what the Minister of State has outlined in that we send patients to the HSE. It is a battle. They end up going to Tullamore and eventually, depending on whether it is an emergency, they may or may not get treatment. That is not acceptable and we have to fix it.

I have seen at first hand the efforts made by the HSE to recruit dentists and while I want to acknowledge that, they are failing. There is something wrong if we have a situation where we are training so many dentists every year but somehow or other there are none available They are not all going into private practice. Many of them are emigrating. If the Minister of State does nothing else, I ask her to consider this issue from the perspective of trying to capture, for want of a better term, those people, that is, to try to get some of those good dentists into work on the scheme. As for the private schemes, contracting on its own is not working and is not satisfactory. A cohort of directly-employed dentists that the HSE control, employ and manage is needed. That is the point.

I thank the Deputy. I have listened to the issue being raised today, but I have also heard it from colleagues in this Chamber. I have taken on board the points the Deputy has made. I can assure him that addressing access to dental care in Laois-Offaly, including for children and adult medical card holders, is a top priority for the Minister. The Minister has made substantial additional investment in oral healthcare services, both in 2022 and 2023. On the Deputy's query in relation to Laois, I will go back and directly ask the Minister if there are dentists providing the service under the DTSS, as he has outlined here today. I will ask him that clearly.

Yes.

Fundamental reforms are being progressed through implementation of the national oral health policy for which funding has been provided this year. The policy sets out the vision for the future of oral health services. While it has taken a number of years to bring it to complete fruition, there will be an earlier and continued emphasis on addressing the current access issues. These modernised services will be person-centred, prevention-focused and available locally, in line with the vision set out under Sláintecare. The Minister has supported the HSE to develop clinical leaderships and to reform leadership roles to progress implementation of the policy this year. The HSE has recently appointed a strategic reform lead to drive policy implementation across the organisation and to move forward in 2024 with developing new services for both adults and children in line with this policy. I am confident that working together across the relevant Departments, agencies and other stakeholders, in line with respective roles and responsibilities, the goals of the policy will be met. I will also bring to the attention of the Minister the Deputy's query in relation to capturing the new graduates as they qualify.

I thank the Ceann Comhairle for the opportunity to raise the issue. There are three parts to it. Charleville, County Cork, is one of the busiest towns in the Munster region and the N20, the main road between Cork and Limerick, goes through it. The Minister of State is very familiar with it and I thank her for the many times she has visited in a constructive way to help us, particularly with St. Joseph's Foundation in Charleville. It is a road about which there have been ongoing discussions. It was to be bypassed many times. The project was stopped in 2011 and is now back on track again. We have seen fatalities on the street in Charleville over the last while. It is a dangerous road in a busy, bustling regional market town, and all the traffic is coming through. There are a number of issues. There are short-term issues in relation to placing raised tables at either side of the town to slow the traffic going through, to ensure that traffic is not travelling at speed and that there is proper consideration for everybody on the main street in Charleville to ensure that it is safe. There is the medium-term solution which is to have a relief road within Charleville, which is of course at the heart of the Munster region. There is a hugely developing and developed engineering sector within Charleville, which goes way back, since the time of the Golden Vale factory. A huge number of people are employed there and it is a fantastic place to set up business. Many of the businesses that are set up there are advancing and developing further. We need a relief road in the medium term. The long-term solution is to ensure that the N20 is constructed. It is the most vital piece of infrastructure. It connects our second and third cities, Cork and Limerick, leading on to Galway and bringing connectivity right across that region. I ask for an update on what is happening with the bypass, which will be the great enabler for Charleville. Over the last number of months, there was a massive announcement of €5.2 million for the development of the main street and the provision of facilities there under the rural regeneration and development fund. That is a massive redevelopment of Charleville, which will get it ready for development down the line. I know that the Minister of State has a brief from the Department. Today, I seek updates on the short-term, medium-term and long-term solutions. The long-term solution needs to be brought back and prioritised.

There is concern in all of us that it might be long-fingered. We are led to believe there is progress being made on it. I would like to see if that briefing is available to the Minister of State for today's discussion. It is important from Charleville's point of view and for the safety of people who are doing their business on the main street, where there have been recent fatalities, that they can continue to grow and provide a service for the communities they serve across the region and that Charleville is prioritised within the budget of TII and the Department of Transport.

I thank the Deputy. The Minister for Transport has responsibility for overall policy and Exchequer funding in relation to the national roads programme. Once funding arrangements have been put in place with Transport Infrastructure Ireland, TII, under the Roads Acts 1993-2015, and in line with the national development plan, NDP, the planning, design, improvement and upgrading of individual national roads is a matter for TII, in conjunction with the local authorities concerned. TII ultimately delivers the national roads programme in line with Project Ireland 2040, the National Planning Framework and the NDP.

Approximately €491 million of Exchequer capital funds has been provided for national roads through TII to local authorities in 2023. These allocations were announced by the Department of Transport and TII on 16 February 2023. Among the new national roads projects listed in the NDP is the proposed N20-M20 Cork to Limerick scheme, which would bypass Charleville. Some €5 million was allocated for this project in 2023. As with all national roads projects in the NDP, the delivery programme for the project will be kept under review for 2024 and considered in terms of the overall funding envelope available to TII. A major priority in the NDP, in line with the Department’s investment hierarchy, is to maintain the quality and safety of the existing national road network. The NDP foresees an Exchequer allocation of circa €2.9 billion for the protection and renewal of existing national roads over the ten-year period to 2030, allocated fairly evenly across the decade.

Each year, TII carries out a collision analysis of the entire national road network. The purpose of this exercise is to identify locations that have high concentrations of collisions. It does not however include the subsequent process to devise proposals to identify road safety interventions; this is the responsibility of the relevant local authority, as the road authority for the area in the first instance. With regards to safety issues in Charleville, a high collision location was identified through the network safety analysis in 2019. This was forwarded to Cork County Council for its consideration. TII has worked closely with Cork County Council through the N20 Charleville safety working group which commenced in June 2023. Through this group the council expedited the preparation of a design proposal and the delivery of a feasibility and options report. A safety scheme that addresses many of the safety issues was developed by a multidisciplinary design team within Cork County Council. TII currently awaits submission of the feasibility and options report from the council requesting the funding required to deliver the road safety improvement scheme. Submission of the feasibility and options report is necessary for the council to request funding for a road safety improvement scheme. TII is aware that Cork County Council is considering improvements at two other locations in Charleville, at the New Line junction and at the filling station at the southern end. TII is committed to working with the council to see what safety measures can be identified in the short term to improve safety in the town.

Going back to how the Deputy presented the question, it is very clear that there are three stages to this. The response I have from the Department indicates that it is vital that Cork County Council submits its feasibility and options report so that TII can assist it.

This was raised very forcibly by Councillor Ian Doyle in Charleville at Cork County Council level. He has been raising this issue constantly at meetings of both the northern committee and the county council. I understand there is co-operation between TII and the council on this matter. I would be grateful if the Minister of State could ask the Department of Transport and TII to respond to us. I believe the council has been liaising with TII over the last while. I want to ensure that whatever documents are needed at this stage by TII are clearly given to me so we can ensure there is no delay between what is being proposed, the submission by the council and the allocation of funding for it. It is crucially important. There are three stages to it. We have stage one and stage two. Could the Minister of State tell me in respect of the overall project where the issue is in terms of the bypass and what needs to be done? I believe we are to have a briefing next week. Is there an update on road design, structures and the advancing of the project? It is the Department's belief that further funding will be made available in 2024 through the TII budget to advance the overall project within the Charleville area, that is, the bypass.

I am going to read the response. Due to the outlined funding constraints for national roads in 2020 to 2023, a prioritisation exercise was necessary. In line with the NDP and Government policy, the Minister, Deputy Eamon Ryan, has allocated national road funding for 2023 in a manner which seeks to achieve the following key outcomes: protection and renewal of the existing national road network, progressing major projects in or near construction, progressing major projects which are pre-construction but well advanced in the development pipeline and prioritising any remaining funds for major projects which provide for local bypasses and compact growth in Ireland's towns and villages. The allocations for national roads projects in 2024 are expected to be announced by the end of the year. I would take from this that the issue raised by the Deputy falls under the fourth category. However, at the same time it feels like a bit of a lottery system. When he meets with TII next week, that is one of the points the Deputy would need to make. In my opinion, it also answers that piece. It is a market town and a major point of connectivity between Cork and Limerick. I am glad the Deputy included Galway. It is that part of the critical infrastructure of the western seaboard that needs to be developed. People's safety is paramount.

I thank the Ceann Comhairle for allowing me to raise this important issue once again. I thank the Minister of State for coming into the House to reply. As we all know, this arises from the continued and ongoing use of section 47, section 32 and other sections in litigation in respect of family custody situations. The production of a section 47 or a section 32 report predetermines the outcome of any case, any discussions in almost every instance, particularly in cases where no cross-examination of the producer of the report is allowed. It is either ignored or disallowed.

The Minister has very kindly indicated a change in legislation which is due to come before the House early next year. Provision is being made at the end of the current year. The problem is that in the meantime, the abuse to children and their mothers and fathers continues. It comes with the authority of the State. Damage is being done to mothers and children as a result of the grotesque manner in which this is being carried out. The process is being accelerated notwithstanding the recognition that there is a new law about to come into force. Some measure is needed to disallow the use of that section in the interim in order to allow parents and children have the benefit of the new legislation when it comes into play rather than having to go back and appeal again and again.

The point I have made many times in the past, which the House has allowed me to do, is that the abuse continues and happens all over the country. Every week we get letters and calls to our office to the effect that this is happening again. Because it has been raised, understandably, the victims know that help is at hand. In the meantime, however, advantage is being taken of the situation to establish certain alleged rights. I strongly urge that something be done as an interim measure to interrupt the process and to instil in the minds of those who are committed to the concept - it has never been peer reviewed, has no standing in law at all and to my mind is unconstitutional in the way it happens in this country - and who are operating retrospectively that it is not going to go on forever and that we should be looking at the way things are likely to emerge in the future. This is because the Minister has already indicated that changes are at hand. I welcome the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte. I thank her for coming to the House, for her reply, and for her understanding of this issue in the past.

I convey the apologies of my colleague, the Minister for Justice, Deputy McEntee, who cannot be here for this matter due to another commitment. On behalf of the Minister, I thank Deputy Durkan for raising this important matter here today and for giving me the opportunity to provide clarity on some issues.

I must emphasise at the outset that management of the courts, operational matters and logistical functions are the responsibility of the Judiciary and Courts Service, which are independent in exercising their functions under the Courts Service Act 1998 and given the separation of powers in the Constitution. I am, therefore, unable to comment on any individual case or category of cases. To be fair to the Deputy he did not speak of any cases.

As the Deputy will be aware, last year, the Department of Justice committed to undertake both a public consultation and independent research on the topic of parental alienation as part of the Justice Plan 2022. The findings of both were analysed and, arising from this, officials from the Department of Justice developed a policy paper on how to address the issue. The research report and the policy paper can be accessed on the Department’s website. Both the paper and the report recognise that parental alienation is a highly contested and divisive concept. While there is little concrete information on the exact extent of accusations of parental alienation within the Irish courts, the research report found that, similar to other courts internationally, there appears to be increasing claims of parental alienation in family law proceedings. It appears to arise particularly in custody and access disputes and in cases where allegations of domestic, sexual and gender-based violence feature.

Despite the highly contested nature of the concept, there was consensus in the public consultation that the means to address parental alienation lie in improvements to the Irish family courts and family justice system. The Department of Justice is currently leading on an ambitious programme of family justice reform, including the publication of the Family Justice Strategy 2022-2025 and the Family Courts Bill 2022. The strategy puts children at the centre of the system and emphasises, among other things, the need to ensure they are listened to and heard and their views given due regard, in line with constitutional obligations and rights. Reflecting this, the policy paper puts forward six recommendations to address the issue of parental alienation. They centre on progressing elements of family justice reform, building the system’s capacity to adequately hear the voice of children, and improving the knowledge, skills and experience of all those involved to make the best determinations in each case on its own merits. This is especially important in high-conflict cases, in which allegations of parental alienation can often arise.

Both section 47 of the Family Law Act 1995 and section 32 of the Guardianship of Infants Act 1964, as amended, provide for experts to be called as witnesses in family law proceedings. Experts can be called by the court or by one or both parties. When an expert is called as a witness they can be cross-examined on their report and any recommendations made therein.

The family justice strategy contains an action, under the goal of supporting children, to examine the role of expert reports, including section 47 and section 32 reports, in the family law process. This action has been prioritised and will look at the commissioning and availability of these reports, their content and use. This review is progressing with a set of recommendations to be produced by the end of this year. I have no doubt that Deputy Durkan will welcome this. Later in the year, a working group will be established to review the effectiveness of the current arrangements for hearing the voice of the child in private family law cases.

The strategy also emphasises the importance of training for the range of professionals involved in the family justice area. As part of this, the Department of Justice will engage with a range of bodies, including the Judicial Council and its officials, to identify training needs in communicating with children and child sensitivity training. It will also support the work of the council to provide training opportunities to all judges focused on family justice and to identify a set of training requirements for family court proceedings.

I thank the Minister of State for her extensive and detailed reply. I am aware she understands the situation and this is indicated in the reply. The situation also needs to look at how simple it has become. For example, if a child is reluctant to visit with one parent in a particular situation, it is immediately concluded that this child has been the subject of parental alienation. That may not be the case. There could be a reason the child does not want to go in that particular direction. That should be reasoned and should be argued. It is arguable and should be admissible.

The other part is that the child's voice is no longer heard in those situations because Tusla cannot get involved. Tusla is bound by the in camera rule, which ensures no free agent outside can comment as they do not know what has happened. The media cannot comment and are not allowed to attend. It is nobody else except those directly involved. I understand why all of that was done, but there are now serious indications that children are being subjected to an abuse that should not be happening. They have done nothing wrong. Kids do not understand why they have been separated forcibly from their parent, or why they are not allowed to meet the parent, or why they are not even allowed to attend the meeting. Provision is made in the legislation for all those meetings to take place.

The bit that really worries me is where a Supreme Court judge recently commented on the expertise of expert witnesses where he inferred that the witnesses were taking over the job of the court. That should not take place. There are strict rules whereby everybody has their right to fair play in the courts and that is our democracy. I am aware the Minister of State understands it and I know that help is coming but it is not coming quickly enough for the kids who are currently the subject of the law as it is being interpreted.

On behalf of the Minister, Deputy McEntee, I thank Deputy Durkan. I also thank the Deputy because the voice he raises here every week on the issue of parental alienation is reflective of what a lot of us receive in our offices weekly or monthly. Having been a spokesperson for children and youth affairs, I know the voice of the child is sometimes forgotten. We can write all the legislation in the world and all the rules and regulations but we must put the child at the centre and listen to the voice of that child. This is why we have legislation to protect the right of the child.

The Deputy will be aware the Minister, Deputy McEntee, published the first family justice strategy in November 2022 that sets out a vision for the family justice system of the future. This will be a system that focuses on the needs and rights of children. It will be a system that assists their parents in making decisions that affect all of the family, and a system that makes it easier for vulnerable parents and families to get support and make informed decisions.

The strategy is foundational in nature recognising the many issues that currently exist within the system and outlining the steps needed to move towards a family justice system that is streamlined and user friendly and which supports and protects children and their families. The family justice strategy is an ambitious and wide-reaching strategy that aims to achieve reforms through the implementation of more than 50 actions across nine goals. As I mentioned, these include an examination of the role of expert reports, including section 47 and section 32 reports, in the family law process and commissioning the availability of these reports and their content and use.

I thank the Minister of State for being here this evening. I would be very surprised if she is not aware of this issue in her area. On page 55 of the programme for Government, there is a commitment to introduce a social housing passport to allow households to move from one local authority list to another. This provision has been in every programme for Government for the past 15 years or so. I am struggling to understand what the issue is with it and why it has not been introduced.

This is best illustrated with examples. One of my constituents was originally living in the Dublin City Council area and went on its housing list. Due to the housing crisis, she moved to Balbriggan because it was the only place where she could get somewhere to live. Fast forward ten years and she has now been on the housing list for 12 years. She has nominated Balbriggan as one of her preferred areas. She was asked to move to the housing assistance payment, HAP, which she did. She now finds herself in a situation where she is very close to getting housed on the Dublin City Council list. However, in the intervening period, as one might expect, she has married and had children. The family have established and settled themselves in Balbriggan. The waiting list in my constituency runs to about 14 years. If she wants permanent social housing any time in the next 14 years, she will have to take the house offered by Dublin City Council. We believe that the offer of a house is fairly imminent. She will have to uproot her kids and take her partner away from where he is working. She will find it very tough to get to work herself. Her children are members of sports clubs in Balbriggan and take part in after-school activities there. She either loses out on the years she has accrued or she has to move.

I have another case of a woman who moved to Dublin from Monaghan. Her HAP was being covered by Monaghan County Council. She moved into the Fingal County Council area while Monaghan County Council continued to cover the HAP. She was advised to come off the Monaghan list, which she did. She now cannot get onto the Fingal County Council list because she is in receipt of HAP from Monaghan. Once a person gets HAP, the box is ticked and their housing need is deemed to be met. Although it is not permanently met, it is deemed to be.

The issue with this, in part, is the length of time involved. These are temporary measures, which would work fine if people were only on the housing list for six months. However, we all know that is not what is happening. A large part of this arises from the fact that people are not being told this when they sign up for HAP. They are not being advised that this could then mean that they then come off the housing list for the area that is not their primary area, which is often where they are living. That is one complication. Another complication is that if someone on a housing list gets a job offer in Cork, say, they have to make a choice between having somewhere to live or having somewhere to work. They cannot move without it.

This matter is further complicated by the fact that there is no consistency. South Dublin County Council will accept people and give them credit for the years they have been on a list. In other words, people can bring their social housing profile with them. This is not the case in Dublin City Council and Fingal County Council and as far as I am aware, in many others. This lack of consistency is a big issue. One of the main problems is that people are not being told. They do not understand the implications when they move. I have checked the form, and the relevant information is not on it. Neither is it on any of the guidance, which I checked before I came here, just to be on the safe side. People might say they did not see it. That would be fair enough if it was in the guidance, then it would be the person's responsibility, but it is not. People are not being told by officials in the councils. Very often, council officials do not necessarily know that this is the case because there is no consistency. I hope the Minister has a good answer for me

I thank the Deputy. I will be taking this issue on behalf of the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage.

The Housing (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2009 and the Social Housing Assessment Regulations 2011, as amended, set down a standard procedure for assessing applicants for social housing support. Under this procedure, a household may apply for support to one housing authority only. This may be the authority for the area in which the household normally resides or with which it has a local connection. It can also be in another housing authority area if that authority agrees, at its discretion, to assess the household for support. The HAP is a form of social housing support available for people who have a long-term housing need. Any household assessed as eligible for social housing is immediately eligible for HAP.

Eligible households can source their own accommodation in the private rental sector which should be within the HAP rent limits provided to them by the local authority. At the end of quarter 2 of this year, more than 112,900 HAP tenancies had been set up since the scheme commenced. Of these, 58,234 households were actively in receipt of HAP support.

The flexibility of HAP as a social housing support is one of the scheme's key characteristics and was one of the primary benefits envisaged when the scheme was launched. With this in mind, the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage issued circulars relating to inter-authority movement in 2017 and 2019, with the aim of facilitating movement of HAP households from one local authority area to another in cases where a tenant wishes to access rented accommodation with HAP support in another local authority area. Inter-authority movement is, however, subject to certain conditions, such as the relevant social housing income eligibility bands and confirmation that the applicant's income is below the threshold in the new local authority area. HAP tenants who avail of inter-authority movement continue to be dealt with by their original local authorities. However, the rent limits applicable are those that apply in the local authority area where the property is situated. The original local authority will engage with the relevant new local authority to facilitate eligible requests for inter-authority movement.

HAP tenants who avail of inter-authority movement can be offered access to the housing transfer list of the original local authority. The practical operation of transfer lists is a matter for each local authority to manage, on the basis of their own schemes for letting priorities. The making of such schemes is a reserved function of local authorities and, as such, is a matter for the elected members.

This goes back to the nub of the question the Deputy asked regarding the passport. Many local authorities are very good at being flexible, but where there is demand, there is no doubt that there are issues. I can speak from experience of what happens in Galway, where we would be dealing with Tipperary or Offaly and people who want to move but have bedded down and have roots and families now. That is where flexibility needs to be exercised and consideration given.

Rather than addressing the question, the reply encapsulates the problem. The Minister of State indicated that HAP tenants who avail of inter-authority movement can be offered access to the housing transfer list of the original local authority. That is exactly what I said. The constituent I mentioned was a young woman when she went on the housing list. She is now a much older married woman with children. Her circumstances have changed, but her need for permanent housing has not. It has travelled with her. She has been living in Balbriggan for almost 12 years and is about to be offered a house elsewhere. It is a good thing to be offered a local authority home, but she has to uproot her four children and go all the way to another area which is not easy for kids to do. In addition, at the time she was not told that this was a potential consequence. The Minister of State also said in her reply that the practical operation of the transfer list is a matter for each local authority to manage. I respectfully suggest that it should not be the case because guidance and consistency are clearly needed. It is different when a person is transferring from one local authority to another. More importantly, people are not told this. As I said earlier, it is not on the forms or in the guidance and it is not explained to them. When people sign up for HAP, they are effectively giving up any claim they would have to a place on the list in the place where they are living because that is not the original authority.

In the case of the woman I am talking about, her local authority was originally Dublin City Council so she is heading to the city and uprooting her kids. It is not any one person's fault; it is a systems error. I am dealing with many cases at the moment but there are three in particular where people have to make very hard decisions over the next while. Perhaps the Minister of State could recommend this to the Minister, Deputy O'Brien. It is in the programme for Government and it is something the Government said it was going to do, but it has not been done yet. Some class of guidance needs to be issued. If they are not going to change the system, people need to be told what way it operates.

While arrangements are in place to allow for the movement of HAP tenants between local authorities, wider consideration is being given to allowing movement between the social housing list in one local authority and another. The programme for Government provides for a package of social housing reforms, including a social housing “passport” to allow households to move from one local authority waiting list to another. An initial scoping exercise was carried out, which identified a range of practical and administrative issues, including those related to the maintenance of seniority on housing waiting lists, local connection requirements, the efficient allocation of existing housing stock and resource implications for local authorities. Further work is required to assess the practical application of such a scheme in the context of other reform package measures.

There is already a degree of flexibility regarding waiting lists. The four Dublin local authorities have arrangements allowing social housing applicants to apply for housing in up to two of the other Dublin authorities simultaneously, and similar arrangements apply in Cork and Galway. This matter will continue to be given consideration by the Department. I will certainly bring it back to the Minister. While it is good news that the lady and her family have been offered a social house, which is serious progress, given there is pressure on schools and everything else, some consideration must be given. I will talk to the Minister about that.