Dáil Éireann díospóireacht -
Thursday, 17 Oct 2024

I am taking this question on behalf of Deputy John Brady. I ask the Minister to respond to reports that substantial volumes of munitions intended for the Israeli military are being transported through Irish airspace, and if he will make a statement on the matter. In fairness, there has been a fair amount in the public domain about this. We know that we need to ensure that we are not in any way facilitating what is going on in Gaza or the wider Middle East by the IDF at this time. Obviously, the Tánaiste has spoken before about the only point of them doing it is to save fuel, but we need to make sure that in no way, shape or form is any of this allowed.

I thank the Minister of State, Deputy Lawless, for allowing me to address this question.

Under the Air Navigation (Carriage of Munitions of War, Weapons and Dangerous Goods) Orders, 1973 and 1989, the carriage of munitions of war by civil aircraft in Irish sovereign territory and by Irish-registered civil aircraft, wherever they are operating, is prohibited, unless an exemption from this prohibition is granted by the Minister for Transport. From 19 August, media reports began to be published alleging contraventions Irish legislation by a number of air operators. As the Deputy can appreciate, it was important that my Department verified in the first instance that the alleged operations did, in fact, enter Irish sovereign airspace and not just the broader area of Irish-controlled airspace outside of our jurisdiction. Once this information has been verified my officials are then in a position to engage with the air operators concerned to seek detail in relation to the cargo carried.

Although the examination of what was carried on these flights is ongoing, provisionally it appears that several may not have been required to seek an exemption. It appears that some of the cargo carried may not have required an exemption, or at the very least there is ambiguity as to whether an exemption may have been required. The Deputy will appreciate that I must ensure that any future action that may be taken regarding any alleged contravention of our laws will not be prejudiced by anything that I might say in this House. As such, I cannot speak to the specificity of the initial analysis undertaken by officials.

The issue of overflights and the operation of air traffic management is a complex matter. Circumstances can arise where an air operator is directed or required by air traffic control to enter the sovereign airspace of a territory that it initially had not intended to operate in, thus it had not anticipated requiring certain permissions from that State. This could be for several reasons such as weather issues or traffic flow management. Examining each individual flight’s cargo and understanding the reasoning for the route flown is complex and time-consuming. My officials are continuing to examine the information received to date and are seeking additional information as needed. I await the completion of these examinations by my officials. The actions to be taken then will have to be determined in accordance with the provisions of the legislation. An offence is provided for in Irish law and my officials are exploring the legal powers which regulate this matter.

Could the Minister provide a timeline for when the examination will be completed? What we had seen on The Ditch about what was believed to be weaponry travelling through Irish sovereign airspace would not be acceptable, I hope, to most right-thinking people regarding what is a genocidal slaughter being carried out by the IDF against the Palestinian people. We need to make sure this happens as soon as possible.

The Minister mentioned provisional information and said that some of these goods, for want of a better term, might not have needed an exemption. That implies others did. Could the Minister give any specifics in that regard? Does it mean we have to actually look at our rules on what requires an exemption? I accept the difficulties with dual-use goods, but we need to make sure that our hands are absolutely clean and that we play our part in calling out Israel and the utter disgrace of what it is doing at the moment.

First, to be clear, I agree with the Deputy. It is totally unacceptable, should any munitions carried through Irish airspace or landing in Irish airports en route to the conflicts in Gaza, Lebanon and the Middle East, especially following what we heard earlier about our soldiers being on the front line there, and the citizens of Gaza. Every party, and I think every Deputy, in this House agrees that it is completely unacceptable that there should be any support for that through the provision of weapons munitions through our airspace.

Second, prior to the articles being published by The Ditch, in response to a Private Members' motion in the Seanad, I had indicated we were looking to strengthen the provisions in the Irish law, which date back to the seventies and eighties, to make sure that we could give confidence to the public that we were doing everything we could to avoid that possibility. If I were to summarise what we need to do in this legislative change, and I will look to bring a memo to the Government to this effect, it is giving us the capability of providing greater ability to search, sample and sanction flights that might be carrying such munitions. We must search, on a random basis - as we have been talking about for some time, but we now need to deliver - aircraft that may land in our airports. Sampling is complex and difficult because this all has to be part of an international aviation agreement, but we need to sample overflights manifests to make sure that it is appropriate that an exemption was not sought.

Third, in instances where a carrier may have breached international and Irish law in this regard, we must strengthen our ability to sanction. That is what we intend to do.

Most people will agree that if these provisions do not exist in domestic law, we need to make sure they are there. The Minister raised searching and sampling manifests and the ability to sanction if there are breaches of international law. How quickly can this be done? What can be done? I referred to the initial nine flights that The Ditch had highlighted. One of those carriers has already rerouted its flights, which gives us some answer regarding what they are carrying. Could I get information regarding the Minister's statement that some of these goods may not have needed an exemption? That leads me to believe some did require exemption or some were munitions under existing law. Therefore, what do we intend to do regarding this?

The information provided relates to wide variety of carriers. We have contacted every single one of them. The initial allegations were related primarily to carriers based in Belgium. We have been in contact with the Belgian Government, and I expect we will get the same information that The Ditch has been releasing. That will give us much greater insight, we expect, into whether exactly munitions were carried for which an exemption should have been sought.

We are engaged directly with the Belgian authorities. We expect to have that information shortly. We must do everything correctly under international law.

Returning to the fundamental point I am making, we do need to strengthen our legal provisions. We have sent a message reminding all carriers of the long-held position of the Government under the Chicago convention that no one can transfer munitions either through the air or landing through Irish airports without the express permission of the Irish Government and, in particular, the Minister for Transport. On a routine basis, we say “No” when we receive applications. The vast majority of applications relate to Irish civil aircraft, for which we are responsible, even if they are not flying in Irish airspace. Typically in Scandinavia, there might be a close protection officer and we sanction that. There might be civil aircraft carrying soldiers from the US to Germany or other such locations. Again, they are approved.

I thank the Deputy for his question and for the opportunity to update the House on this matter.

As he will be aware, my Department has undertaken a detailed appraisal of the development proposal put forward by Waterford Airport. That appraisal has included the assessment of significant documentation and responses to queries raised by Department officials and addressed by the airport, some as recently as this summer. The substantive application was received last December but items remained outstanding until just before the summer break. The level of appraisal is necessary to ensure that due diligence is exercised in accordance with my Department’s transport appraisal framework and the Government’s infrastructure guidelines, previously known as the public spending code.

The transport appraisal framework requires that in the transport sector where a project has an estimated potential cost of €15 million or more, the sponsoring agency must produce a project outline document to be reviewed by the relevant approving authority, in this case the Department of Transport. The purpose of the project outline document is to outline the rationale for an intervention and the intended impacts, verify the alignment of the proposal with wider government strategy and policy and describe the appraisal, governance, and financial approach.

My Department has completed its assessment of the detail submitted by Waterford Airport in line with the project outline document requirements. This assessment was recently submitted to both myself and the Minister for our consideration.

The project costings have increased substantially above the original estimated cost of €12 million to €27 million, deviating significantly from the airport’s proposal in 2019. Furthermore, the Deputy will appreciate that a project completing construction is not an end in itself. Successful operational activity would also be considered to be a key metric. Value-for-money criteria for any investment proposal extends well beyond the construction phase and into the operational phase, including projected activity in the succeeding years. Building a runway in itself is not an end goal; flying planes from it successfully for a number of years is.

I would be happy to update the House further when both the Minister and I have performed that assessment and given it our full consideration. I do reserve an open mind on the matter. I am aware of the desire of the Deputy and others, including the Minister of State, Deputy Butler, in the area and in the constituency to advance this project but it is State money. There is no impediment whatever to a private sector project running start to finish but if the State is asked to make a contribution, the State must have assurances that it is going to work.

I acknowledge the hospital pass that the Minister of State has been given with this project. I wrote to his Department asking when in the past ten years a project that was 100% going to be funded by the private sector before the Department put in a cent of funding was last done. Nothing like it has been done in the previous ten years. The proposal is that private money will deliver the full investment for the airport before the Department would be asked to provide a shilling. It will deliver the runway, the apron, the terminal buildings, the upgrades to the roads, all the regulatory items and operating licence, that is everything. It is amusing when the Minister of State talks about the Department’s assessment. The Department has spent €350 million on metro north, which has been waste of money. It is a Department that was cribbing about the search and rescue contract costing €60 million a year and then wrote a contract for €100 million a year and at the same time reduced the operational efficiency of the helicopters involved. This is an equality issue for the south east. It is also a pro rata strategic investment. Do the Department officials not realise we live on an island? If the Minister of State walks down the corridor, he will see a copy of the Proclamation, which asserts equal rights for every citizen in this country. We are not getting that in what the Minister of State is describing.

It is a little unrealistic to categorise this as some sort of once in a lifetime opportunity for the State and that the funding is not required until the end. Effectively the State has been asked to take a loan from private interests to be paid back pro rata when it is completed. Whether the money comes at the start, middle or end, the fact is the State is being asked to contribute significant funding to buy a pig in poke based on a business case that, to be frank, could be a lot stronger. If it can be strengthened, I am open to revisions of it and examining it further. I said there was no impediment whatsoever to the project proceeding as a private enterprise, should it wish. The State is being asked, however, to contribute. The structure being proposed is that the State would contribute immediately once construction ends, before a single plane has taken off. The business case is also predicated on that basis that its first year of operation would exceed its best ever figures of operation in the past. In year one in the new environment, it would beat the best ever year in the previous environment. In reality, figures declined from 2008 to 2016 when the airport ceased scheduled activities. One could point to the M9 motorway and ask if that is a factor in that decline. The region is well served in other ways. I am open to the idea but the proposal must be strengthened.

I just cannot share the Minister of State’s opinion that the private sector, which is putting probably €24 million into this project, does not know what it is doing but the Department does. I remind him that in 2007, a Fianna Fáil Government gave a commitment to do the runway extension at Waterford at a cost of €25 million. Just like 24-7 cath labs, our university and the N24 and N25, all these political promises have turned to ash.

I will direct my next comment to the Minister of State’s colleague beside him, the senior Minister. I contend the only thing blocking this project is the Minister’s evangelical ideas around aircraft emissions. He has Cabinet colleagues and they share collective Cabinet responsibility. Will he bring a memo to Cabinet on the funding of Waterford airport and let his Cabinet colleagues look at this and make a group decision on this and not keep this project entirely unto himself because he personally does not want to do it and he would prefer to walk out of this Parliament as the man who never increased aviation emissions in this country despite all the new power sources that will reduce those in coming years?

The Deputy’s commented on metro spend. He will not have forgotten the global financial crisis. A lot of money was spent on various projects leading up to 2011. The State was in a different position then. I was someone who was cheering on that big dig at the time. I would have loved to seen a metro and an interconnector build around in the city and a circle line and all the things that were supposed to happen -----

I am addressing my remarks to you, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle. I will continue.

There is also nothing stopping the airport from serving propeller planes tomorrow. There is no impediment whatsoever. What the airport is seeking is state support to start a new business model that would involve a longer runway with larger planes with no commitment I have seen that any airline is ready to take up. I have not seen any projected demand that stacks up. I do not want to go into too much detail about what is in the business plan because it is not appropriate to do so but I would like to see a stronger projection of demand in the area. I endeavoured over the summer months with great effort and energy to support the regional airports and to drive demand into Shannon, Cork, Knock and Farranfore and other regional airports with limited success

I ask the Minister of State about the planned passenger cap of 32 million passengers at Dublin Airport and its impact upon regional flights within Ireland and if he can make a statement on the matter. The matter was brought up by Deputy Pearse Doherty with regard to Donegal Cancer Flights and Services and the fact that there are 430 cancer patients, and this is the means by which they get to hospital on Monday night on RTÉ. We cannot have these people impacted by this cap. There is a wider issue with regard to this cap.

As the Deputy should be aware, as should all of the House, increasing capacity at Dublin Airport is in line with the national aviation policy and it is something that I and the Government want to see happen, notwithstanding the planning framework within which we all must operate. We recognises the strategic importance of Dublin Airport to meeting national social and economic policy goals. That aviation policy includes an objective to develop Dublin Airport as a secondary hub airport. To reiterate, the constraints on Dublin Airport are imposed by planning conditions and not by any decision of Government or any policy approach.

While I recognise the importance of the airport to Ireland’s island economy, it is important to ensure the sustainable development of Dublin Airport, to balance the objectives of the national aviation policy, the needs of business and tourism interests and the legitimate rights of local residents, some of whom I am meeting later today who are concerned about noise levels, etc., and to grapple with the issue of night flights which had been recently complicated by an An Bord Pleanála draft decision. There are many moving parts to this tapestry which can be difficult to align.

On regional flights within Ireland, I would like to confirm to the Deputy because his question focuses on the regional flights impact and it is a concern I share, that there are currently two domestic scheduled passenger services operating to and from Dublin Airport. One is an Exchequer funded-public service obligation, PSO, air service operating between Donegal and Dublin airports. The other air service operates between Kerry and Dublin airports on a commercial basis. That service previously operated as a PSO service until July 2021.

On the Donegal to Dublin PSO, this is funded by Government under my Department’s regional airports programme. This programme provides support to Ireland’s smallest airports being those that provide scheduled passenger services and handle fewer than one million annual passengers. The current PSO contract commenced on 26 February 2022 and is for a four-year period. It provides for a twice daily two-way air services with same day return trips from Donegal. It also provides for further onward international connectivity via Dublin Airport.

I am aware of concerns on the anticipated impact on those slots and flights by the cap at Dublin Airport but I reassure the Deputy that there is a provision in the EU slot regulation directive, which provides that slots may be reserved by member states for the operation of PSO services. In short, that means that the PSO services are capable of being ring-fenced external to the cap. That is good news to the Deputies and to the airlines. I am meeting representatives of one of the airlines affected that operates the Donegal service later today and I hope that will be welcomed by all concerned. It is something that I was keen to address in dealing with this issue.

That definitely was the request that this passenger cap, whatever the wider issues are, should not impact, in particular, PSOs. We are talking tourism but we are also talking about those who have absolutely necessary medical and health reasons for travelling. I welcome that and we need to ensure it happens because the chairperson of the airline had stated that there could be an issue about the viability of the service. If that deals with that issue, that is definitely a good thing. We need to ensure that all of the i's are dotted and t's are crossed to ensure that happens so that we deliver for these people.

There is a wider issue with the planning conditions. Dublin is an airport hub. Whatever we do with our regional airports, if we lose flights here, they go to London, Prague and to the other places. We need to ensure that we do not lose out on what is a major hub airport and connectivity. We absolutely rely on this. Whatever the reasons for it, a solution needs to be found. At the end of the day, the buck stops with the Minister of State and with the Government and there needs to be a solution.

I could not agree more with the Deputy and I am actively engaged in trying to find a solution. I find it somewhat extraordinary that 17 years had elapsed since the 2007 cap had been imposed until last year when the DAA lodged its planning application to lift the cap. One might have thought that given an issue with such gravity that it might have been addressed earlier. We are where we are, however. There are multiple agencies in the mix. It sometimes appears that it is something of an alphabet soup with the IEA, DAA, FCC, ABP, ANCA and so on and so forth. It appears that some rationalisation and simplification may be desirable in the future because, quite frankly, as a nation we have to do planning better, faster and in a more streamlined fashion. That is a concern.

In the interim, we have to attempt to mitigate the impacts of the cap and we also need to encourage and to explore ways to perhaps exploit their consideration. That is something that I am actively involved in. Just today alone I am meeting representatives one of the regional airlines and I am also meeting groups of residents. I have met with all of the aforementioned the regulator, Dublin Airport Authority, the airlines including the American airlines, I have visited the regional airports and so on and so forth. I am actively engaged in searching for short-term solutions. The long-term solution is that the planning process does its job. It would be preferable if it could do its job in a faster and more concentrated fashion but in the short term we have to find mitigation. I am open to any side of the House that wants to propose actions which may help in that regard. I am all ears for any Deputies who wish to come forward with such suggestions.

It would be a much longer conversation if we are going to talk about the issues that exist around planning in this State and its history. There is no doubt that there is a huge number of issues with regard the time it takes and the fact that there cannot be any guarantees even when people can comply with planning conditions.

On the residents, it is absolutely necessary and a great deal of this should de done in a better way in engaging with those people with regard to the mitigations that can be introduced. We cannot have the State being impacted it how we operate as a society but even with regard to the operation of our wider economy. A solution needs to be found. I welcome the conversations with the carriers, the regional airlines and all of that but by hook or by crook, a solution needs to be found. It is not okay that flights will not be making it in and that we will be losing that necessary connectivity. It will have a detrimental impact on this State and on its economy.

I thank the Deputy and I believe we are ad idem on this. I reiterate the Government wants to see the cap lifted. It is national aviation policy to grow the connectivity at Dublin Airport and indeed at the regional airports and across the island because we are an island nation.

Unfortunately, it is not a straightforward matter. It is one that whatever approach we ultimately take will require some time and some application by all involved. I have been working towards that in the consultation I have been undertaking of late, and I hope that will bring some more light than heat to the matter.