Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 1 Jun 2023

I agree with the words of the Cathaoirleach in welcoming the Italian ambassador.

The Order of Business is No. 1, motion regarding the agreement establishing the EU-Latin American and Caribbean, LAC, international foundation back from committee, to be taken on conclusion of the Order of Business, without debate; and No. 2, statements on capital investment in the health service, to be taken at 11.45 a.m. and to conclude no later than 1.15 p.m., with the time allocated to the opening remarks of the Minister not to exceed eight minutes, all Senators not to exceed five minutes, and the Minister to be given no less than eight minutes to reply to the debate.

I welcome the Italian ambassador. I also wish him a happy Republic Day. The connections between Ireland and Italy are clear, not just because we love Italian food and culture and love visiting Italy but because there is also a certain commonality between the people of Italy and the people of Ireland. We share so many values, and so much about the enjoyment of life, including food and drink. It is great to see the ambassador in the House.

Yesterday, a casualty who had been swimming in the sea off Killiney had to be airlifted from the beach. Obviously, it is wonderful in this weather that people get to enjoy the amenities offered by our waterways and coasts, but we ask them to remember, as they enjoy the sea, rivers and lakes of Ireland, which can be dangerous, to very careful. Failing to do the normal things we expect people to do and to be cautious can result in disaster or relying on the Coast Guard, which is fantastic and on which we can always rely. However, let us hope we do not rely on it because if we are relying on it, then somebody else cannot. It is very important for people to be careful around our coasts and waterways.

In due course, I will ask the Acting Leader to accept an amendment to the Order of Business to take No. 18 before No. 1 in order to introduce the Private Members' Bill in my name, the consumer insurance contracts (amendment) Bill 2023, which as people can tell from the name, is a sexy and very-much-wanted topic. I am sure everybody is concerned about what this Bill seeks to do, which is to outlaw average clauses in non-life insurance contracts. As I see people's eyes glaze over in the context of that discussion, I will tell them why it is a very important issue. An average clause is essentially a clause that insurance companies operate to reduce their liability in respect of non-life contracts. The obvious example is home insurance. If somebody has insured his or her home, let us say for 80% of the mean taken at value, then the insurance company takes the view that person has taken responsibility for insuring the other 20%. Even if they do not have to call on the full amount to reinstate the house, in the event of a fire or something like that, whatever amount it is, the insurance company will knock 20% off that. I do not think people are aware this is the case.

People are losing out when disaster strikes and, at their lowest moment, find they are insured for much less than they thought. It is exacerbated in the current climate because the cost of reinstatement has gone up by so much. For example, if you have insured your house for €300,000 and the insurance company says that is only 80%, you will be short a substantial amount of money but, worse, you are probably underinsured in the current environment because of the cost of reinstatement, and the multiplier effect comes with that. I ask the Cathaoirleach - perhaps Senator Lombard will second this proposal - that we amend the Order of Business to take No. 18 before No. 1.

I also extend a céad míle fáilte to the Italian ambassador and join with everybody in welcoming him. We have a great affiliation and friendship with Italy. I hope he enjoys his day and his time in the House.

I support Senator Ward's comments on safety. We have seen some tragedies in recent days whereby young people have lost their lives. As regards swimming, machinery and all that type of thing, we all want to see everybody being safe, especially this weekend. We do not want to see loss of life. Senator Ward's comments are very timely and something we all support.

I will mention a briefing we had from the Irish Cancer Society, ICS, in recent days. It does wonderful work in speaking to Oireachtas people and pointing out to us issues that need to be discussed. One matter it brought up, and I am sure many colleagues are well aware of this, is the high VAT rate on sunscreen products. We all know we have to be careful about the sun, particularly in this fine weather. As can be seen, I take the sun in a couple of hours. Sometimes, I come back after a weekend and people say that I must have been abroad when I was not. It is just that I love the outdoors and get a colour very quickly. We have to be careful in the sun. One of the issues the ICS feels very strongly about is the high VAT rate on sunscreen products. We are all advised to use those products for safety reasons. I hope for a debate in the House, with the Minister for Health, or one of the Ministers of State in that Department, where we could have a full discussion on the matter and make our views known that we would like the Government, if it can at all, to reduce the VAT rate for sunscreen products.

In that regard, I wish everybody a very happy bank holiday weekend. I am looking at our guests in the Public Gallery, who are very welcome as we always like to see people in the Chamber, and who I am sure are enjoying the fine weather as well. It is most important that apart from being safe on the roads and when we are swimming or whatever, we also need to watch the sun.

I also wish to be associated with the comments to the ambassador, H.E. Mr. Corrias, on Republic Day.

I call for a debate with the Ministers for Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth and the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage, Deputies O'Gorman and Darragh O’Brien, about the results of the Red C poll published in the Business Post last Sunday. It is Thursday and not one Member in this House has discussed this issue this week. We need to do a better job at housing refugees and asylum seekers. It is the elephant in the room that no one in the Leinster House bubble wants to talk about.

Some 75% of people believe that Ireland is taking in too many refugees, following the arrival of almost 100,000 people in the space of a year. Concern regarding asylum seekers in their area is highest among younger cohorts, lower social grades, and among Sinn Féin supporters and independent voters. I am sure this is something that many in this Chamber are aware of. According to an RTÉ report by Micheál Lehane, a freedom of information request revealed that up to 180,000 people could be seeking refuge here by the end of this year.

We need to come up with a better plan which takes into account the welfare of refugees, asylum seekers and everybody living in our country.

We have an obligation to take in refugees. We have taken in more people per capita than France and Switzerland. If we are taking in people, we need to provide them with a decent standard of living, not virtue signalling and then having no plan as to what we are going to do. Building virtual ghettos in business parks filled with single men is not what anyone wants. Similarly, mothers living with their children in small hotel rooms is not what anyone wants either.

This is all taking place as many young people are unable to access affordable accommodation or to get on the property ladder. A survey by Grant Thornton earlier this year showed that one in four people are turning down jobs in Dublin due to accommodation concerns. What is unconscionable is that all of this is avoidable, but there is no political will to solve it. A lot of accommodation owned by real estate investment trusts, REITs, are being deliberately left empty. Planning permissions for homes have been granted by councils nationwide, but they are not being built on to artificially increase housing and rental prices. Properties which could be renovated are left to go derelict because the Fine Gael, Fianna Fáil and Green Party Government prioritises wealthy business interests over people living here in the long term.

Ultimately, this is about where we are now and where we are going in the future. I will conclude by asking all Senators to speak out about what they know is happening in our own communities when we have this debate. No doubt, it will be their political downfall if they do not.

I would like to start by seconding the very appropriate motion brought forward by Senator Ward. I want to comment on the organic farming issue. It is very important we should have a decent debate on organic farming. It is important we should not be talking down the organic sector. I do not think it is a slur to become an organic farmer. We have more than 3,500 organic farmers who have signed up in the new tranche. We have nearly 200,000 ha of land now in organics. I am a farmer myself. I am a dairy farmer, not an organic farmer, but I do not believe it is appropriate to talk down or consider the organic industry in a second nature, like others do, unfortunately.

We have 46,000 farmers now who have joined the agri-climate rural environment scheme, ACRES, in recent months. That shows the view of the farming community regarding what and where it wants to go. This kind of idea that if you are an organic farmer, you are a second-rate farmer or it is a slur on your occupation, is something which I take great offence to. A debate with the Minister in this House would be appropriate so we, as a House, can make sure that we have a reasonable voice when it comes to promoting the agricultural industry. There are challenges. I spoke about them in recent days, but we need to make sure we do not talk down one part of the farming sector for cheap political gain. That will do nothing for our society.

The other issue I want to raise, if I possibly could, is the issue of sun cream, which has previously been raised here today. It is beyond belief that the VAT rate on sun cream is 23%, and that it is effectively considered to be a lotion. Skin cancer, as my family knows, is the highest rate of cancer in Ireland, and we need to make sure we have a decent debate. I would like to second the proposal which was brought forward about having a debate on this issue in this Chamber, because it is outrageous that we are paying 23% in VAT while other medications are zero.

Yesterday afternoon, the Joint Committee on Transport and Communications had a most interesting engagement with the university and further education and training sectors, as well as indigenous software developers in cybersecurity. One of the key asks which came from that engagement was from the chairman of Cyber Ireland, Mr. Pat Larkin. Mr. Larkin looked for the State to ring-fence €1 billion for cyber training and education. It was a rather limited ask, given the seriousness of the damage which can be done by a cyberattack in this country, or to any country. We read yesterday in the Irish Independent how €16 million was paid out by Irish citizens for scams in the past 12 months. We know 75% of SMEs have had a cyberattack at some stage or other in 2022.

The cybercriminal industry is now more lucrative than the drugs industry, and it is cleaner, because the people who are engaged in cybercriminality do not have to go out on the streets to sell anything. By the way, there is a misconception out there that they are all highly skilled information technology, IT people. They are not. By and large, hackers just have to get lucky once. We have to be lucky all the time. We should have a debate in this House on cyber and where we are going in cyber in this country, and I would ask the Acting Leader to try and arrange that.

I want to raise the issue of the rural housing guidelines. We have been promised for years. There have been Commencement matters, parliamentary questions and written correspondence about the need for the rural housing guidelines. Many Senators will be familiar with the Flemish decree, which emanates from Belgium, on findings regarding the European Commission and the right to rural housing. I am not in here to advocate for rural housing willy-nilly at every crossroads all over the place, but I realise and recognise that parts of rural Ireland are dying. Parishes are folding. GAA clubs cannot exist. Schools are down to one teacher. Families have abandoned little rural hamlets all over rural parts of Ireland. They are no longer there to live, support, collaborate and work on behalf of their communities and support their elderly folk. There is a desire for many of them to build near or close by their families and to support them, and that is the ask.

Today, I am writing again to the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage, Deputy Darragh O'Brien, to ask him when he is publishing. Forget about the promises. They cannot keep coming in here for three years and tell us that they are working on them. Can we have a debate on rural housing, and can the Acting Leader use his good offices to impress upon the Minister the importance of and the need for rural housing guidelines? As someone who lives in Cavan, who works with rural people, and represents ably and well rural communities and people, I ask that he makes this a priority.

Go raibh míle maith agat, a Chathaoirligh. Tiocfaidh mé ar ais tar éis an sos, ach I would like to get a debate with the Minister for Education on the proposed reduction in the draft new curriculum for primary schools in the allocation of time to the teaching of Irish. There is great concern about that. There is more which needs to be said about it, but I wanted to get my ask in ahead of our break in order that the Acting Leader might get an ask in that we might return to that issue very soon.

I want to draw attention to and ask for a debate about the working of our abortion laws in Ireland in the light of two tragic developments. We heard in the report at the Joint Committee on Health yesterday a very biased presentation from the supposedly independent chairperson, who was calling for a change in the laws and the removal of the three-day waiting period without, as it emerged under questioning, ever having engaged with a single woman out of the potentially 4,000 who did not go for the second appointment and who may have changed their minds. The fact there was no interest in exploring why they changed their minds and how that might reflect on the need for that three-day waiting period shows a terrible attitude, as well as that they did not even have any regard to the HSE figures which showed that so many people did not go for the second appointment.

Also last night, Deputy Bríd Smith's legislation passed Second Stage in the Dáil, which would introduce abortion on demand up to viability, abortion up to birth in the case of disability, with no talk of precautionary pain relief for late-term abortions, and complete decriminalisation, so that anything would go without any legal sanction.

This passed Second Stage by 67 votes to 64 votes. What does that say about our legislators? That is the second time flawed legislation has passed Second Stage. We saw that with Deputy Gino Kenny's legislation on euthanasia, which everybody saw was dangerous, and yet it still passed on Second Stage. It is really important that concerned citizens contact their Deputies and Senators, in particular the Government ones, and ask about what is going on. There is a lack of humanity in our Legislature when people will not even talk about precautionary pain relief in late-term abortions. Where is the humanity? Where is the decency? It is really important that citizens start politely plaguing their politicians, because there is something bad at work in these Houses when votes like that can pass.

Senator Ward gave his compliments and commendations to the emergency personnel involved in the airlift at Killiney yesterday. He progressed from that to make a valid point. The summer weather is beautiful and enchanting. I listened to Evelyn Cusack this morning. She is retiring from RTÉ and we should take this occasion to wish her well. She is one of the great personalities and the great human face of the Met Office. The point was made on the radio today that we can expect a good weekend, and good weather into the coming days. That is charming and wonderful. However, Senator Ward is absolutely correct that with that comes the potential for tragedy. It is a time for great caution and great care to be taken. While people enjoy our sea, rivers and lakes, they must take great care and obey the various instructions about safe swimming areas and so on. They should not go off on solo swims out of approved areas. All of that is important. We had a shocking tragedy in County Clare yesterday too, and our hearts go out to that family. I agree with the Senator on that.

Senator Ward also proposed an amendment to the Order of Business in order to introduce legislation. I am happy to accept that amendment to the Order of Business. The Senator explained his legislation succinctly, even for us laypeople. He said that a person could unwittingly find themselves in a situation where he or she only gets 80% for the repair of a house, having anticipated that they would get 100% on the averages clause. As he said, that has shocking potential in a time of high building costs, etc. I agree with him. It is appropriate legislation. On a number of occasions, Senator Ward has been at the forefront of bringing in new legislation. This is another example. I congratulate him on it, and I am happy to accept the amendment. The Senator gave a good example of €300,000. Somebody could lose 80% of that, leaving €60,000. In the current situation that is wrong.

Senator Murphy welcomed the Italian ambassador as we all did. He then spoke about the briefing yesterday from the Irish Cancer Society. The VAT rate on sunscreen products merits debate. The entire area of the availability of cancer drugs, their shortage and costs needs to be kept under review in this House. The Senator was right that it should be discussed on a regular basis. We would need the Minister for Health to come into the House for us to do that. The Leader of the House is in our presence at the moment, and I am sure she was listening acutely and attentively to that. Senator Murphy made a very good point. It is a particularly pertinent one with the weather we have at the moment. We would again urge caution in this area. Skin cancer is a real risk. If people can manage to purchase sunscreen and use it, they should. I know the Senator is not suggesting the contrary. The VAT should be examined. An entire debate on the whole area of cancer would be welcome, as I suggested.

Senator Keogan mentioned some aspects of the migration issue and the polling on Sunday. I do not have to tell Senator Keogan, as an experienced political operator, that some of this polling needs to be taken with a pinch of salt. It has to be taken in context. More probing questions are often not asked. However, it poses relevant points as she said. On her basic point about information and the public, the Taoiseach, along with the Minister, Deputy O'Gorman, have committed to try to improve how we inform our people and how we speed up the provision of more accommodation. Those practical responses she suggests are important. She is correct that it is an ongoing issue. I will make one point, and I know she will not dispute this. Every one of us in this House has a moral responsibility to show leadership in this area, having been confronted with it myself on a number of times. I am happy and proud to say I did the right thing. I know Senator Keogan and everyone here would do the same, but it should be done. There can be no ambiguity. We should not forget Ellis Island, the coffin ships, the signs stating, "No dogs, no Irish", the history of emigration in this country and the way we were social outcasts abroad. We left in Famine ships on which disease was common. Some 1 million people died in the Irish Famine and during it, and subsequent to it, around 1 million people were forced to emigrate. That is a shocking statistic. Some of us are aligned to Christian-democratic parties. However, whatever we are aligned to, we are Christians, by and large, and we know what the sermon on the mount states, and we know what the doctrine of Christ states in these areas.

All of the points made by Senator Keogan are welcome and helpful in the sense of how we organise ourselves and provide more speedy accommodation and better inform our public but we have a moral responsibility to be unambiguous in welcoming new people to this country. We should also be cognisant of the tragedy that brought them here, whether it was the war in Syria, one of the horrors of contemporary times, or the illegal and barbaric invasion of Ukraine. No later than last night, I think three people were killed in Kyiv and two of them were children. Those are horrific statistics. Our hearts can only go out to those people. We are lucky in this country. We take so much for granted. We have peace here.

Senator Lombard raised the importance of organic farming, and how it can never be the Cinderella of farming. He is absolutely correct. We should revel in the green agenda and in a more health conscious age. We should also revel in the development of organic farming and be supportive of it. Senator Boyhan has also been an advocate for organic farming here. I agree with Senator Lombard in this sphere and that we should be supportive of our organic farmers. If anything, they should experience positive discrimination.

As the Cathaoirleach alluded to, Senator Lombard is a long time advocate of Senator Murphy's proposition that we reduce the VAT on sunscreen products. I have heard him say that a number of times in the past. He supported Senator Murphy again today. The two of them are voices of reason in this House and they merit listening to on this one. It is an important area, particularly if we believe the upcoming trends in weather patterns and the kind of summers we can anticipate in future years.

I have the privilege of serving on the Joint Committee on Foreign Affairs and Defence with Senator Craughwell. I also have a special friendship with him arising from the fact that we were both involved in teacher trade unions in the past. We have a history there. Senator Craughwell raised the issue of cybersecurity, as he does regularly. You do not need a better example than what happened in the health services here.

A criminal has to get lucky only once; we have to be lucky so many times. I cannot recall the name of the gentleman from Cyber Ireland.

It was Pat Larkin. He said that €1 billion should be invested here. Thankfully, and without getting into the politics of it, through prudent management of our economy and incentivisation of FDI over the years, we are in the happy position that we have the kind of money to do this. It is necessary expenditure. I agree with Senator Craughwell. We need to be very avant-garde and proactive in the area and to take the necessary steps. As the Senator has said, the cybercrime industry is a cleaner issue than the drug industry. We need to act on that. I support the Senator on the matter and I think it should be debated here. I also support it being debated at the Joint Oireachtas Committee on Foreign Affairs and Defence. I will support it from the Floor the next time the Senator raises it. The Leader is listening. I do not have to promise Senators that I am going to inform the Leader, because the Leader is listening acutely to what is going on. I presume she is taking that on board. The Leader could not but be aware of the risk of cyberattacks. They are a very real risk and they are happening all over Europe as we speak. We need to be very vigilant. I commend the Senator on raising the issue.

To move on, Senator Boyhan raised the matter of rural housing. I had the privilege of sitting on Cavan County Council for 20 years. Not a week went by without me hearing the issue being raised. It is a case of back to the future for me to be here in the Seanad Chamber and for it to be raised again. It is no less relevant. In fact, it is becoming more relevant every day. The Senator is right. We need clear rural housing guidelines and we need to build rural houses. I believe we should go back to the practice of building rural social houses, that were historically referred to as rural cottages. In fact, I have a press release out at the moment on the issue. They should be built by local authorities. They ceased building them in latter years. They were a wonderful thing for the balance of communities, for integration and for a thousand reasons.

We should have very clear guidelines on rural housing, and they should be issued quickly. We will bring the point raised by the Senator to the relevant Ministers. It is a very important one. There are cases where there are three or four generations of a family in one location. They want to build there and the children want to build there. Often, it is difficult for applicants to establish a local need. The local need is that they want to live there and they are going to live there. They are not building a house as part of some fanciful exercise. It is a very serious commitment and they should be supported in that. I take issue with the Senator mildly in respect of one point. I know he will not have a problem with it, but I dispute his thesis that rural Ireland is in bad shape. Actually, rural Ireland is thriving at the moment. There are a number of factors working-----

We have had an injection of new people in our rural communities. There has been a lot of investment, notably, by my colleague, the Minister for Rural and Community Development, Deputy Humphreys. She is constantly investing in rural Ireland. The sports capital grant programme has been launched in rural Ireland. My experience is that we have very vibrant living communities across rural Ireland at the moment. However, that is not to dispute the Senator's very wise thesis that arises from a lot of experience in local and national politics. He is right that we should have clear guidelines on rural housing, and we should be proactive in allowing people to build in rural Ireland. I am not disputing that.

To move to Senator Mullen's contribution, aontaím go mór leis faoi stádas na Gaeilge sa tír seo. Tá sé iontach tábhachtach go mbeadh muid ar son labhairt na teanga, líofacht sa teanga agus athbheochan na teanga agus go mbeadh spéis agus grá againn dár n-oidhreacht agus dár dtír. Tá mé lán i bhfabhar é sin. Tréaslaím go mór leis an Seanadóir ar an ábhar seo. Is fiú díospóireacht a bheith ann faoin méid ama a thugtar don Ghaeilge. Molaim don Cheannaire an pointe sin a choimeád ina haigne sna seachtainí seo chugainn. The Senator has made an important point. It is a slightly lateral point, but I am of the view that the big thing we need to do for the Irish language - we can afford it now, thankfully, for a lot of good reasons - is to work proactively on getting young people, like the lovely students that are here, to go to the Gaeltacht. Therein lies the key. Senator Mullen's championing of it would help, perhaps with other Members of the House. We should work on getting young people to go to the Gaeltacht on a regular basis, or even to go once. That way, they will develop a love of the Gaeltacht, including the physical area, the people and the whole heritage aspect of it. I had the privilege of going to the Gaeltacht as a young teenager at 13 or whatever, and it gave me a lifelong love of Irish, Irish music and the traditions. I see the Cathaoirleach agreeing with me. Those of us who had the privilege of teaching for some time appreciate the point. We need to get children to the Gaeltacht. We have to work on that. Every time we have a debate on the Irish language, I raise that point. Senator Mullen, who comes in for those debates, knows that. We have to do more about it.

Senator Mullen also raised the issue of three-day waiting period for abortions. The Senator referenced the interesting figure of 4,000. He is right in saying that when we put the issue to the people a few years ago, it went to the people with that as part of the legislation. It is something of a negation of democracy and the will of the people to immediately overthrow that. I believe that to be the case. I fully get that. I personally believe we should not be extending the length of time before abortions can take place. These are arbitrary steps that should not be taken in light of the prescribed legislation that people voted through. In relation to the legislation that passed Second Stage yesterday, Senator Mullen will appreciate, as one of the most able legislators in the House, that it yet has to go through Committee Stage and Report Stage. It has to come before the health committee and there has to be a Government response. There is a whole process in place there. I agree we have to tread very carefully here. We have to respect the wishes of the people and we have to respect the dignity of life, the dignity of the human being and human life at all times. There can be no ambiguity around that. We have a moral responsibility on that, as well as the other responsibilities I mentioned earlier. We have a moral responsibility there, and it is appropriate that the Senator should raise it on the Floor of the House. I congratulate him on doing so.

I am accepting the amendment to the Order of Business, as proposed by our colleague, Senator Ward, and seconded by Senator Lombard.