Seanad Éireann debate -
Thursday, 17 Nov 2022

I move:

That Seanad Éireann demands the immediate publication by the Board of St John Ambulance Ireland of the review conducted by Dr. Geoffrey Shannon into allegations of sexual abuse at St John Ambulance Ireland.

I thank all of the Senators who put their names to this motion. I thank the Minister for Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth, Deputy Roderic O'Gorman, for coming because he was instrumental to the report we are speaking about. This is a very simple call or it should be a very simple call.

I want St. John's Ambulance to publish the review into the allegations of sexual abuse in the organisation and prior to publication, to give a copy of it to the approximately 100 contributors to Dr. Shannon's review. In the past week or ten days, we have heard a lot in the news about revelations of allegations of sexual abuse, rape and violence in the Spiritan schools. I know the country is probably convulsed and shocked about that.

Today we are dealing with allegations that are probably 20 or 25 years old. The public should be absolutely shocked that neither the officials in St. John's Ambulance to whom these allegations were reported donkey's years ago nor the members of the Garda to whom these allegations were reported donkey's years ago did anything about it. Nothing happened despite St. John's Ambulance finally in 2012 referring an allegation to the HSE. Tusla, which is supposed to be responsible for minding and protecting our children's welfare did not do anything or contact the victims until 2018.

We have had years of what I will very politely called procrastination, but I really do not believe it is procrastination. I believe that because there was only a small number of victims of sexual violence and rape over those 25 years, they decided that if they ignored it, they would eventually go away. The fact that Minister after Minister, in particular Ministers for Justice, whose pleas fell on deaf ears, did nothing probably reinforces the fact that those members in St. John's Ambulance, who absolutely knew what was going on and when it was going on, did nothing about it because nobody was actually making them do anything about it.

I know they knew for so long because of this wonderful booklet that was published by St. John's Ambulance in 2003, covering a centenary of wonderful events that they have had. This book is on view in our National Library at the moment. In one of the photographs an individual has been photoshopped out because as they were well aware, he was the person against whom the allegations were made by various members of the public going back as far as 2003. They photoshopped him out of the picture so he is not in the wonderful publication of their centenary of great achievements. That tells me that the board and leaders within St. John's Ambulance made conscious decisions knowing what they knew to airbrush this particular person out of their own history while knowing that there were victims who had made allegations not only to the Garda but also to the St. John's Ambulance management and leadership and they did absolutely nothing about it. There is the first major failing on behalf of St. John's Ambulance. At a minimum they must show an ounce of compassion by publishing its report immediately upon receipt.

The second issue where the State failed is that several of the victims went forward to An Garda Síochána and gave their testimonies and their witness statements. The Garda was good enough to provide a file to the Director of Public Prosecutions, DPP. However, the DPP decided there was not enough evidence and decided not to prosecute.

It was very remiss of me not to welcome Mick Finnegan to the Chamber today. He is one of the reasons we are having this conversation unfortunately.

On appeal, the DPP said there still was not enough evidence, despite seven victims providing detailed testimonies of the experiences they had had at the hands of senior people in St. John's Ambulance. I will now go one step further. In excess of 100 people have now contributed. I believe that is only the tip of the iceberg. When we finally get that publication, which we will get in the coming weeks, in addition to reactions by St. John's Ambulance to the recommendations in that report, we now need a State-led public inquiry. Since time immemorial, St. John's Ambulance has been funded by the people of this country. Given its actions in the past - cover-up and all - we have an obligation to ensure its commitment to the child protection legislation that we have in our books today is being adhered to fully.

On behalf of the victims of rape and sexual violence, which we all think does not exist in this country any more, we have an obligation to ensure that they see justice. My mind tells me that the only way we will see that is by having a public inquiry. I want to put it on the record today that I personally - I do not know if any other Seanad Members will join me - want to see a public and State-led inquiry into the allegations and activities of the people who ran and volunteered for St. John's Ambulance. Not only do the victims deserve justice but all of the tens of thousands of people who have served loyally in St. John's Ambulance deserve the commemoration of their achievements over the years. Their names are being sullied because we cannot get to the bottom of this and provide justice to the victims.

I second the motion.

I welcome the Minister. I thank the Leader for leading off, for gathering the signatories and for organising this important motion. I join her in now formally calling for a full State public inquiry into St. John's Ambulance and particularly into the accountability and governance of the board now and previous board of the St. John's Ambulance service.

Dr. Shannon's report is expected to draw on the official records, and interviews with the survivors, current and former members. It must now be published. I acknowledge and thank the Minister for keeping the focus on this issue. I again acknowledge that the decision by St. John's Ambulance to commission an independent review followed a certain amount of pressure from the Minister. Concerns about alleged child sexual abuse by former senior St. John's Ambulance officers were apparently an open secret. This claim has been made by many past members of the organisation. I acknowledge the investigative work by The Irish Times, which revealed that several men had been sexually abused in the 1990s by senior figures within the organisation.

Abuse generally is a very complex issue. Many people will not understand the complexities and the dynamics of grooming, the quasi-military mind-set of the organisation, an atmosphere of mistrust and persistent rumours of misconduct. The organisation's culture was for years resistant to change and was described by many as a rigid gerontocracy. That is particularly important and it should be read into the record. I have no doubt the organisation's handling of abuse contributed significantly to the defilement and violation of individuals, and the ruination and desecration of many. That is very serious to allege. We will never know the full truth until we have a full State inquiry.

I understand that An Garda Síochána has an ongoing investigation into past abuses. I do not know how many people are involved but I wish them well in their work. In recent days, there has been much talk about abuse. I have two requests of the Minister. He should initiate and seek Cabinet approval for a State-led public inquiry into this organisation and many other organisations, but we should stay focused on this one today. He should further resource the One in Four group to allow it to provide practical supports. It needs additional financial support. It is one of many organisations that do particular work.

I also acknowledge the work of the Rape Crisis helpline. I met a man the other day who said that the Rape Crisis helpline is not for him, is not for men. I told him that is not the case. We need to do a bit of education on that issue. We need to highlight that in inquiries. We also need to link people into the HSE counselling services. There is a need for resources. It is one thing to talk about what we want, but I know the Minister, who is committed to this area, will look at that. I have asked for assistance to be provided to the One in Four group.

If people, who are tuning into Seanad Éireann today - as many people do to these live broadcasts - or later in the week, are affected by these issues, they should contact One in Four at oneinfour.ie, the Rape Crisis helpline at 1800 778888 or the HSE counselling service online or by phone at 1800 235234.

I am happy to speak on this motion on behalf of the Sinn Féin Seanad team and we were happy to cosign it. It is a perfect example of how this House can work collaboratively for a common cause. Recent weeks have been difficult for everybody who has been listening to the airwaves as we once again expose how far the State needs to go to protect children from sexual abuse and to end the institutional cover-up of that abuse.

Abusers in this country seem to be able to abuse for years and, in the case of perpetrators in St. John Ambulance, for decades. We call today for the publication of the review conducted by Dr. Geoffrey Shannon into allegations of sexual abuse at that organisation. The board of St. John Ambulance must publish the report without further delay. Dr. Shannon confirmed its completion at the end of October. It is cruel to delay its publication any longer. In fact, it is retraumatising survivors to make them wait.

I welcome Mr. Mick Finnegan to the Chamber, whom I had the pleasure of meeting before today. I commend him on being so brave in refusing to give up on his campaign for justice. He has spoken openly about the abuse he experienced at the age of 14 by a senior staff member of St. John Ambulance and the fact he reported the abuse 20 years ago to his family, the organisation and the Garda. Everybody knows that coming forward as a survivor of sexual abuse takes a huge amount of courage. Unfortunately for Mr. Finnegan, nobody wanted to know. He has stated:

Nobody believed me or wanted to listen to me. This was 1999. It wasn't 1950s Ireland. But no-one cared about kids in the inner city getting abused...

He has spoken about how his life unravelled and he ended up homeless as a teenager, sleeping rough on the streets, and how it robbed him of his relationship with his family. We hear stories like this all the time, with men and women talking about the impact abuse has on them for their entire lives. Survivors pay a life sentence for the abuse they experienced, while, in many cases, their abusers are allowed to continue working in the institutions and organisations in which they are employed. We have seen the same this week with abusers in the Spiritan order, who were moved to another location when they became too problematic.

The State must step up and change this culture. There must be no more circling of the wagons, silencing and cover-ups. All of that has to stop. In the case of St. John Ambulance, it is shocking that the man who drafted its child protection policy was given a 12-month suspended sentence for grooming a child online. This was the man who wrote the child protection policy for the organisation. St. John Ambulance must be held to account. It needs root-and-branch reform in order that those who knew about the abuse and remained silent are removed, replaced and held to account. To date, at least eight men have come forward to say they were abused in the organisation. They deserve to see the report to which they so courageously contributed.

I echo my colleagues' calls for the report to be released. Equally, this is not just about the board of St. John Ambulance and the publication of this report. It is about the State's responsibility to protect the children who live on this island from sexual abuse and to act when those children come forward to report that abuse.

I reiterate the welcome I gave when I was in the Chair to Mr. Mick Finnegan. A person who has been abused should not have to continue to fight over decades to get justice, but that is what we are seeing. Every Senator in the Chamber has signed this motion, which shows the strength of feeling there is and that we want to show support to victims in this particular instance, as well as the victims of abuse in other institutions on this island who have come forward in recent days, weeks and months. We need the truth to come out. I have every confidence in Dr. Geoffrey Shannon, who has examined the matter in detail. I have no doubt his report will be a good one.

The Minister, Deputy O'Gorman, and I recently visited Barnahus in Galway, which is a centre for children who are victims of sexual abuse. We were very impressed with the centre, the working of which will be followed in other centres across the country. It is a model we can follow for children who are sexual abuse survivors.

The added element in the cases we are discussing is that the institutions involved had an important position within Irish society. There is a class element to this. Victims were ignored for decades and there is a sense that some people matter and others do not. That is not acceptable and the House is saying so today. I certainly would like to see the report published but I agree with the Leader that we also need a more detailed inquiry. We must ensure Tusla is properly funded to deal with these cases. Since the Minister took office and we went into government, an extra €110 million in funding has been given to Tusla. That shows the level of commitment from the Minister.

We could speak about this issue every day in the Seanad but what we really want to see is action and progress on it. I would welcome an opportunity for another debate when the report is published in order to examine it and discuss what the next steps should be. I thank the Leader for pushing this motion and ensuring it has cross-party support. It means something when everybody is signed up to a proposal.

I thank the Minister, Deputy O'Gorman, for attending the debate. We were not in this Chamber when we last spoke about this issue, which was in October 2020. We had worked with Mr. Finnegan and other people who have been impacted by it. There are many other victims we know of but we also know there are many other victims of whom we are not aware. We must keep them in mind when discussing this issue. When I brought the matter to the House in 2020, the Minister promised to commission the report. I commend him on doing that work and especially on securing Dr. Shannon to head the review.

Initially, there were concerns around the independence of the process. I am sure it was not an easy task to secure Dr. Shannon, given that the board of St. John Ambulance was trying to manage how the whole thing was done. It was good to have Dr. Shannon oversee the review and I am confident in the report he has delivered, but it needs to be made public. There is no justice without truth and transparency. Not publishing the report is a continuation of hiding things away from public view. None of us wants to be part of that hiding away. We want to pull that back. A public inquiry is needed.

A certain individual seems to have been airbrushed out of a photograph, which seems like an easy task. Unfortunately, nobody who has been impacted by this man can airbrush away everything that has been taken from them, all the trauma and pain they are left with and all the mental health issues and hardships they have had to endure. That can never be airbrushed away. As we have seen, some people within the power structures of organisations think that by removing the problem and pretending an individual does not exist any more, things are somehow sorted. Wen I spoke out on behalf of people who were victims of abuse in St. John Ambulance, I did not anticipate being contacted by many others. At the time, I referred to a particular perpetrator but I subsequently got calls to my office from other people and had meetings with men in their 50s and 60s who where abused by other members of St. John Ambulance in other jurisdictions outside that of the perpetrator to whom I referred. This shows we need to widen the scope of the investigation.

I went to the Minister's office at that time because I was alarmed to learn that the particular perpetrator of whom I was aware had full access to local community services in Rialto.

He had the confidence and trust of boards of management at the time, which was 20 to 30 years ago. They allowed him to lock up and to continue with his work when they went home. While he was there teaching people first aid, and we know how he did that - we know he used that to abuse people - he had full access to some of the most vulnerable communities in Rialto that were availing of drug services, youth services and St. Andrew's Hall. He had full access in terms of the zoo and football clubs, and that is just one individual. He seems to have been everywhere across those communities and to have had way too much access, so much so that he would pull up in the St. John ambulance outside St. Andrew's Hall and would have the bus there. There is so much more for us to uncover and to learn. We need to take it out of the grasp of the St. John Ambulance and use the Geoffrey Shannon report as a catalyst for a wider, State-led investigation. We know that will also be able to bring supports to people, because they need access to counselling.

Senator Boyhan referenced the HSE and other places, but some people really need to have their own advocacy and agency about where they choose to go.

We need to be able to provide funding for people who may have been with counsellors for years who may fall outside of those structures. They may need support in covering the cost of those things. We should not therefore limit supports to particular places, especially in cases where people have been ignored by the HSE and Tusla. Actually, to be fair to Tusla, its report found evidence to uphold that there was an issue and against an appeal. However, to give true advocacy and agency to people who have been through so much, we need an independent report. We need that independent report to be matched with a needs analysis of what type of needs are there for people who have had to endure this, especially when we know that the State and the Garda have let them down, because they had been made aware of this. This is not something that has been uncovered that everyone is surprised by, because people did go to the Garda and to Tusla. The information was there and it is not new to any of us. The State, in several different guises of institutions, failed people at a particular point and we need to be able to offer greater support to people.

I will say again that justice has to be matched with transparency and truth. We as politicians must do everything to unveil the truth at all costs, because then people can stop fighting for the truth to be heard. If you are a survivor and your situation is being whitewashed or downplayed, you can never begin your true healing process if people are still not believing the gravity of the situation and there are many times when you were not believed, were not heard or were pushed from pillar to post.

At this point, we must have a public hearing and public debate on the report and then we must also seek a public inquiry. Like I said, the one perpetrator of whom we know had a lot of access to many people over a long time, so much so that he put some vulnerable people up in his home and they ended up with no house. That is information I have that not everybody will know. I work in those communities and that is how the information came to me. Like I said, other people contacted me about other jurisdictions of St. John Ambulance in other communities that are not even necessarily as vulnerable as some of the communities I am talking about. There are other communities that are well off. As we know, while spaces of vulnerability can make it easier to access people, there is no real class division in the perpetrators of sexual violence. We have seen from this week that it exists everywhere and we need to widen a public inquiry into St. John Ambulance.

Like everyone else, I acknowledge Mick Finnegan, who is in the Chamber today. I know there are others who are watching and that, for many others, this is not something they will be able to watch, want to watch or participate in for a variety of their own reasons.

I am struck by the figures Senator Doherty called out. One hundred people have now come forward. Seven people came forward, and that was not deemed to be enough by the Director of Public Prosecutions, DPP. We have spoken in this House before about a variety of issues. One person coming forward, giving testimony and speaking truth should be enough for them to be believed, to be taken seriously, to be listened to and for action to be taken. One person should be enough. There should not have had to be seven people coming forward, which was also not considered to be enough. There are possibly up to 100 people and possibly more coming forward. Is that the bar we are setting in Ireland, that we need 100 people to come forward for us to believe victims of abuse, child abuse and misuse of power? This is happening. We seem to have these conversations when we are trying to reflect on our past, to face it and to face what has happened to people in Irish history. When one person came forward, they were told they were wrong and that they were a liar. This is not just in relation to the St. John Ambulance. This is a relation to much of our very dark past, much of which is still buried. One person came forward, there were signs and they were pushed away. When another person came forward, they were considered to be collaborating with that person. It seems we need hundreds of people to have to come forward. It is a frightening indictment of what has gone on in our past, that we need critical masses of hundreds of people for all of these different things in order for the State machinations, if you will, of the past even to consider there is a realm of truth in what someone is saying.

I am struck every time we talk about these issues that we constantly need this critical mass, when one person’s stories, one person's life and one person's future being stolen away from them is enough and should be enough. I am so angry we had these systems in place and these protections in place by the State apparatus, by society and by people in power that said this one person, whoever they were and at whatever point, were just not enough. I am so frustrated this is coming up repeatedly.

I know many people have been working on this, but I want to commend a number of journalists who have covered this story and who gave time to it. They sensitively covered this story when it is a difficult story to cover and it is a difficult topic to write about. In particular, Jack Power has been covering this regularly and has been incredibly sensitive and thoughtful in how he has covered this. I recognise that, because sometimes these stories can be hard to push over the editorial line for a variety of reasons.

The report in question, which is still not yet published, was commissioned by the St. John Ambulance following revelations that several men had been sexually abused by a former senior figure in the organisation’s old Kilmainham division in Dublin in the 1990s. I will take a moment to read into the record some quotes from some of the people, if that would be okay with the House, following on from the investigation and the sensitive coverage that was given to it by some journalists. As I said, Mick Finnegan is here in the House and he is one of the first victims who came forward. In his own testimony he said:

“I lost so much coming forward, I lost the relationship with my family, nobody believed me. I ended up homeless... Even now I still struggle, all I wanted was support,” he said.

He has spent 24 years - more than half of his life - looking for St. John Ambulance to be held accountable. “This report wouldn’t have happened if the first survivors didn’t come out publicly and share our stories... We just want the truth,”.

Again, it is important to acknowledge that Mick was one of the first survivors who came out to seek this truth and he has been seeking truth and justice for a very long time. It is my understanding from having spoken to Mick and from having followed him online that this has often been a difficult and lonely road. I want to commend his tireless pursuit of truth and justice, not just for him but for other victims.

There are other quotes I will read out:

...an eighth alleged victim who came forward and who wished to remain anonymous was abused as a child by the former senior figure in the 1970s. “I was a lonely kid with no friends, to say I would have been vulnerable would have been putting it mildly,” he said.

He acknowledged that he was molested by a man in an ambulance during first aid duty at Mondello Park racing track. He said he was:

...13 years old and claimed the accused had supplied him with alcohol beforehand. He alleged the former senior figure had been accompanied by an "accomplice" during the incident, who had been a younger adult volunteer.

“I couldn’t go home and tell my parents... Kids weren’t listened to in those days,” ... “I buried it for over 40 years... I find I’ve been an observer in my own life, I’ve never been able to enjoy things,” he said.

Looking back now ...[he] said the accused’s inappropriate behaviour had been “blatant”. At the time it appeared local units were run as the “personal kingdoms” of senior officers, with little central oversight or accountability.

That tallies with much of what other Senators have said today.

We have spoken about how abusers had access to victims and there were references to whether this was a class issue and about who believed whom. The revelations this week of other areas show this is not necessarily a class issue. However, these abusers sought out vulnerable people who they knew perhaps would not be believed or listened to and who may have come from somewhere where they knew they did not have a circle around them and that no one was going to listen to them.

I want to reference again our own history of child abuse.

I find it so hard to comprehend. In so many different sections of society, grown adults who were abused as children are now coming forward. I cannot comprehend how we let that happen. I read the quotes into the record, which I thought was important to do. I thank the Leader for tabling this cross-party motion. I am very happy to sign it on behalf of the Labour grouping. We reiterate the request that this report has to be published for Mick Finnegan, for those watching, for those who came forward and for those who will never ever be able to speak about the abuse or horrors that were perpetrated upon them. We owe them truth and dignity. We owe them a public inquiry. We cannot right the wrongs of the past, but we can certainly try to right the way going forward.

What has been expressed by Senators thus far has been comprehensive and thorough. There is no question that we need transparency. The Leader's first call when she initiated this motion was for transparency in the publication of the report. I commend her on that.

I can imagine that the Minister envisaged having the portfolio for the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth to be something other than his experience has been, which is a catalogue of absolute trauma. I commend him on how he handled that and dealt with the people who lived through trauma in the conduct of his office thus far over the two and a half years. He has again come to this Chamber to listen to Senators call for a public inquiry and transparency in order that those who have been traumatised can receive justice.

I am aware that the mere mention of another organisation and more child sexual abuse has a triggering effect for people and leaves a sickening feeling in the pits of their stomachs because when they have spoken out, they have not been believed. There is something at the heart of Irish society. This is not unique to institutions. Over the past 25 years, details of the most horrific cases of sexual, physical and violent abuse perpetrated in various institutions have come out. We now have St. John Ambulance. The so-called colleges of the elite have been included in the past few days. We have a fundamental problem in Irish society of not facilitating young people to speak about abuse. Their parents either cannot hear it or do not want to. Children take the responsibility of not traumatising their parents by saying this is happening to them. Perhaps we need to teach people the skills to hear this information when it comes from someone they love and treasure. How do we facilitate people being able to share that?

I absolutely support the motion. We need public inquiries in respect of St. John Ambulance and other matters. There is an idea that organisations can get people to sign up to non-disclosure agreements, which Senator Ruane has come out so strongly against. I completely support her in that regard. Organisations hide behind non-disclosure agreements and secrecy in order to protect their reputations. There is no reputation where there is secrecy. There is parallel job of work to be done. As a society, have we actually confronted the fact that there are people among us who have been sexually and physically abused and whose very souls have been torn apart by those in positions of power and trust? What they believe to be good about the world has been eroded. Their trust was torn apart at a very young age. How are we dealing with that as a society? In my view, we gaslight it. It is happening in families. The people who stand up and talk are the ones who are ostracised and talked and gossiped about. They are the people to be shoved off and locked into a corner. I have experience of this in my role as a counsellor - walking people and families through it. I have heard the experiences of people in my own life and walked with them through those experiences. I commend Mr. Finnegan. I can well understand the terrifying experience it is to be that lone voice that is not listened to.

There is a way to confront this, which I have spoken about with Leader. We must have a discourse in Irish society whereby we confront our past. Somehow, we manage to put sexual abuse out of sight. We manage to "other" it to organisations. We also "other" it to individual perpetrators when, in fact, we need to somehow be able to facilitate victims being able to share what they are saying and walk beside them, holding their hands, as they name perpetrators. It should only take one. I am horrified by what I have heard today. It should only take one person for it to be believed and to trigger an investigation. We also need to strengthen the law on complicity in the context of people who knew or know about someone's actions and do not act. Mandatory reporting is clearly not enough, and it is confined to those who are in particular roles. There needs to be something else in place for when a person hears about something and does not act. That is shameful.

These people are now in their 50s, 60s or whatever. Once people have that experience, they will be triggered and traumatised for the rest of their lives. The what-could-have-beens of trust and hope are eroded and broken. We can build supports around people to recover. We can build skills around them to believe and have hope and relationships thereafter. We can do that; it only takes a word to trigger it again. A bigger conversation needs to happen. I commend the Leader on this motion. I am glad for the cross-party support. We need this published, absolutely, but we also need a public inquiry.

I thank Senators for bringing attention to this important issue both today, in the context of the motion the Leader has brought forward with support across the House, and since I first took up this role. I refer, in particular, to the engagement from Senator Ruane. I am very glad that Mick Finnegan can join us today. We would not be here but for his bravery. I want to put that on the record.

The Charities Regulator, which is under the aegis of the Department of Rural and Community Development, is Ireland's statutory regulator for charitable organisations, including St. John Ambulance. My Department does not have a role in the governance of St. John Ambulance. My Department is very conscious of the fact that abuse is not consigned to the past, however, and it is my role and that of my Department, in collaboration with Tusla, the Child and Family Agency, to protect children now.

I met and spoke to one person who was abused as a child while volunteering with St. John Ambulance. Subsequently, I met the board of St. John Ambulance in late 2020. The organisation engaged with Tusla at that time to ensure compliance with its obligations under Children First: National Guidance for the Protection and Welfare of Children and accepted the recommendations of Tusla to arrange an independent review of the issues that were raised. Dr. Geoffrey Shannon, senior counsel and, most importantly, an internationally recognised expert in child protection, was subsequently commissioned by the board of St. John Ambulance in March 2021 to conduct an independent review into the handling of historical child sexual abuse within St. John Ambulance. While the findings will be presented to the board in the first instance, it is my expectation that St. John Ambulance will ensure swift publication of the report. I have expressed this view of the importance of swift publication in my correspondence with St. John Ambulance, Tusla, survivors who contacted me and in my engagements in this House and Dáil Éireann.

The terms of reference of the review, as fully agreed by Dr. Shannon, set out that he would examine how St. John Ambulance handled past allegations of child sexual abuse relating to the individuals in question and any other allegations made. Importantly, though, the review was also tasked with examining the current standard of child safeguarding within the organisation.

The review has both a backwards-looking element and a present-looking element.

I understand that, given the sensitive nature of the subject matter of this review, Dr. Shannon believed that in-person interviews were the most appropriate format. Since the interviews were happening during Covid, this approach led to some initial delays, but I genuinely believe that it was the best format. I understand that arrangements were put in place for secure remote meetings with survivors and participants. I also understand the review proceeded despite the impact of Covid-19-related restrictions on the process.

I have met one of the individuals who has come forward. I commend that person and all others who have come forward, often at significant personal cost in terms of being questioned and not being believed, as a number of Senators have said. Their bravery in coming forward and sharing their experiences allows a criminal or civil investigation to take place, but it also provides courage to other people to do the same. One person has to have that bravery. It is a lonely place, which we recognise.

Tusla and officials from my Department have met to prepare for publication of the report and to ensure that supports are in place for persons affected by the details contained within it. Tusla officials are liaising with St. John Ambulance to co-ordinate these supports and ensure that all relevant information is shared with Tusla and An Garda Síochána, as necessary. Tusla's child safeguarding statement compliance unit has reviewed St. John Ambulance's safeguarding statement and child protection policies to ensure they meet all legislative requirements and are fit for purpose. The organisation's safeguarding statement was revised in 2022 and is published on the St. John Ambulance website. This review was established to ensure that all people affected by sexual abuse or who were concerned that abuse had taken place within St. John Ambulance had the opportunity to be heard in a safe and supportive manner.

Dr. Shannon is an expert in the area of child protection and I have confidence in his ability to deliver a robust and thorough review report. Publication of the report and its recommendations ensures transparency at the conclusion of the review. Publication needs to happen swiftly after the report is submitted to St. John Ambulance. The report's recommendations will doubtless be of benefit to other voluntary organisations seeking to improve their own child safeguarding measures. It is my hope that publication will ensure all those who participated in the review are heard and acknowledged.

I thank the Minister for his support, not just today, but since his appointment a number of years ago. In particular, I thank him for his preparations for what he knows will be required once the report is published. I thank him for agreeing with our call for publication to happen swiftly.

It is important that the supports he is planning be put in place immediately, but I must be honest with him. This is probably not politically correct of me to say, but I am getting used to challenging some of the agencies of the State at this stage. We seem to have developed a practice of the DPP deciding not to take cases against perpetrators because of their age, health or frailty. That makes me sick to the pit of my stomach. I am not naming names, but we are not just discussing St. John Ambulance. There are many other institutions, agencies and voluntary organisations. We talk about this being a class issue, but class my eye. This permeates every single section of society. It reflects badly on the justice system when it decides not to prosecute someone because of that person's frailty, regardless of whether there was one victim or hundreds.

Yes. It is nonsense and it disregards the years, if not decades in some cases, victims spend dealing with the fallout of the actions of those perpetrators. We need to examine this matter. I do not know how the Cabinet can do so, given that there is supposed to be independence, but we need to reflect on the fact that this is not just about justice being delayed, but about justice being denied because of some man's age, disregarding everything he has done in his life.

We need a public inquiry, and not just into the allegations of abuse in St. John Ambulance. We have been told of the activities in the Spiritans. This week, we discovered Dr. Michael Shine's non-disclosure agreements. Prosecutions against him were refused because of his age. It is nonsense.

If anyone believes that sexual abuse and rape are things of the past, he or she is not accepting reality. Looking back on the history of how we addressed situations in this country, we all have an element of shame over how people were dealt with, but we have an opportunity now to ensure that we accept the mistakes of the past and never repeat them. There are people who are lucky enough as victims to have been able to put their trauma in a box, park it away somewhere at the back of their brains and get on with trying to have lives, but there are thousands of victims who are not that lucky. It is up to us on behalf of the State to ensure that, as the Minister is preparing to put supports in place, we give them an opportunity to achieve justice regardless of the age of the perpetrators.

I thank everyone for supporting the motion. It is not the Minister's personal responsibility to decide on whether to hold a public inquiry, but I hope that he brings the motion to the Cabinet for discussion and that the Cabinet reflects on the wider issue in society.