Select Committee on Housing, Local Government and Heritage debate -
Wednesday, 16 Oct 2024

I welcome the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Heritage, Deputy Darragh O'Brien, and his officials. I thank them for the briefing material provided, which has been circulated among committee members. The meeting has been convened to consider the Supplementary Estimates for Vote 34 - Housing, Local Government and Heritage, which were referred by the Dáil to this committee. While the committee has no role in approving the Estimates, there is an opportunity for the committee to make the process more transparent and to engage in a meaningful way on the relevant performance issues.

I propose to proceed by asking the Minister to give a high-level overview of the Department's performance related to expenditure in each programme area. He should keep this to about five minutes. If, having discussed the programme areas detailed in the briefing paper, Members wish to pose questions related to any issue not covered, they may of course do so. I invite the Minister to make his opening statement.

Gabhaim buíochas leis an gcoiste as an gcuireadh teacht anseo tráthnóna inniu. I very much welcome the opportunity to discuss with the select committee my Department’s Supplementary Estimate for 2024. I am joined by the following officials from my Department: Mr. David Kelly, assistant secretary in the homelessness, rental and social inclusion division, and Ms Sinead Kehoe, our finance officer.

In June of this year, I met members and discussed the 2024 Further Revised Estimate for my Department in the round. I thank them for their engagement on that occasion. I appreciate that this committee meeting has been convened at short notice to consider this Supplementary Estimate. I will do my best to keep my introductory remarks short and focused on the subject matter at hand.

The Estimate I set before the committee in June detailed my Department’s budget for 2024. This totalled €6.9 billion for the year and comprised €3 billion in current funding and €3.9 billion on the capital side. This was supplemented by €141 million in capital carryover from 2023. In addition, my Department’s housing programmes have benefited this year from non-Exchequer funding of some €181 million that was made available from the proceeds of local property tax. This represents a very substantial element of overall Government expenditure in 2024 and is instrumental in funding core areas of activity under the remit of my Department, particularly in the areas of housing, water, planning, local government and heritage.

The Supplementary Estimate before the committee today covers substantive additional funding for both current and capital expenditure, bringing the Department’s current expenditure provision for 2024 to €3.301 billion and its capital expenditure provision, including the carryover I have mentioned, to €5.057 billion.

A total of €300 million is being provided for current expenditure programmes. Of this, €41.2 million is required for social housing current expenditure programme due to upward pressure on the subhead throughout the year, driven by ongoing and increased delivery under all schemes. The programme supports the ongoing costs of social housing under a range of schemes, including, very significantly, the capital advance leasing facility, which has dual expenditure from both capital and current funds.

On the basis of up-to-date estimates, the cost to the Exchequer of providing emergency and homelessness services in 2024 is expected to amount to €385 million. Therefore, additional funding of €143 million is being provided in light of the increased demand for emergency accommodation and to ensure those most vulnerable in society have access to good-quality accommodation. Section 10 funding is essential to ensure local authorities are in a position to deliver the necessary services to households experiencing homelessness. It continues to be of vital importance that emergency accommodation is available to all those who require it and for as short a time as possible before being exited into permanent housing solutions. The increased expenditure in section 10 is overwhelmingly driven by the increased cost of providing emergency accommodation, and the biggest increase has been in Dublin and the Dublin region. Expenditure on homelessness is demand led and is dependent on homeless presentations. My Department, and my colleagues across government, together with local authorities and approved housing bodies, remain fully committed to tackling the level of homelessness. I flagged earlier in the year that we would provide whatever funding was required to ensure we would have the emergency accommodation needed for our people. That is borne out in the additional funding of €143 million.

The remaining additional current funding to be provided will principally cover additional costs to the Local Government Fund associated with the full implementation of the public sector pay agreement and some costs arising to the local government sector from the Irish Water transformation programme, and additional funding to Waterways Ireland related to the settlement of a legal case.

A sum of €331.5 million was allocated to local authorities in 2024 to pay the costs associated with the unwinding of the FEMPI legislation and national pay agreements. An additional allocation of €51.6 million is now required to cover the full impact of the pay agreements during 2024, bringing the full-year allocation under this heading to €383.1 million. This allocation, which is cumulative in nature, is to help local authorities ensure that they have the necessary resources, in terms of people, to perform their functions this year.

This Supplementary Estimate will provide funding towards water-sector transformation stranded costs in 2025. The majority of these costs relate to the water services central management charge, for which local authorities will have no source of funding. Central management charges are central corporate costs, such as those related to HR, finance, IT and buildings, that cannot be directly related to a particular service but that form part of the total cost of delivering services. These costs are embedded in local authority budgets for 2025. Other stranded costs relate to staff who currently work less than 50% of their time on water services and are not eligible to transfer to Uisce Éireann. This funding is essential for 2025 to continue to fund payroll costs for those staff. My Department and the local authorities have agreed a memorandum of understanding to close out these stranded costs by 2026.

A total of €1 billion is being provided for capital expenditure programmes. This additional funding will support the continuation of a suite of critical social and affordable housing delivery programmes.

Within this, an additional €552 million is being provided to subhead A3, which is local authority housing. It is the main source of funding to local authorities for the construction and acquisition of homes for social use. The additional funding will support the successful tenants in situ scheme and also includes €255 million in relation to this year's costs associated with the temporary development contribution waiver scheme, which has helped to boost housing starts to 50,000 over the past year. More than 40,000 new-build social homes are currently in the project life cycle, with around 25,000 in the pipeline for delivery over the next two to three years. A strong new-build social housing programme has been developed, with consequent significant capital funding support required. The Supplementary Estimate supports this programme and also reflects the reversal of the temporary reallocation of capital funds that we discussed in June of €200 million from subhead A3, which we discussed as part of the Further Revised Estimates Volume. That provided funding for a suite of affordable housing delivery programmes, particularly the cost-rental equity loan, CREL, and secure tenancy affordable rental, STAR.

In tandem with this, €70 million is being provided to subhead B5, Uisce Éireann, in relation to costs required this year. That covers the temporary water connection charges refund. That has been an important activation and cost reduction measure, particularly to get schemes that were on the cusp of viability started. Commencement activity in August this year saw an uptick and indications are that this trend will continue, with a significant increase in commencements expected for the month of September, coinciding with the scheduled end of the water connection refund and development levy waiver, which continues to the end of the year. This bodes well for completions in the coming years.

An additional €225 million is being provided to subhead A28 to support approved housing bodies so they can deliver cost-rental homes through CREL. To support the provision of additional social housing units via local authorities and delivery partners, the approved housing bodies, through the capital advance leasing facility, CALF, an additional €125 million is being provided to subhead A11. An additional €20 million is being provided to the capital assistance scheme to support the delivery of social housing for priority groups. Those priority groups include older people, homeless people or people with special needs and disabilities.

Finally, reflecting the strong activity under the suite of housing adaptation grants in 2024, we are providing an additional €8 million to support recoupments to local authorities by the end of this year on these schemes.

I have kept my remarks as brief as possible and focused specifically on the purpose of today's meeting, which is the Supplementary Estimate for my Department. Of course, I will be happy to deal with matters that members wish to raise and to revert to the committee after the meeting if I do not have the detail with me today.

It is welcome to see additional money being spent in this area, given the commitment of everybody in the room to the issue. I have a number of questions. The Minister can choose to answer those that he wishes. The first relates to housing projections. The Estimates relate to spending this year. Obviously there is a budget provision for next year. We intend to publish new housing projections. It would be interesting to hear where we are on that and how funding will match those projections.

While not part of the Estimates, it would be interesting to find out more about the further capital available to the Land Development Agency in the budget for next year. I cannot remember whether it was a recommendation of this committee or the Committee of Public Accounts but, regarding the idea of funding for local authorities and the clarity of funding for local authorities, it can be difficult for local authorities to distil how much money is coming from central government and how much is not, given the complex mechanism of funding. I think the recommendation from one of our committees was that a project would be undertaken to simplify or increase the transparency of that. I would ask the Minister to think on that.

I might come back to the final matter if we have time. I had the opportunity to meet the St. John of God Housing Association, which provides housing for people with disabilities. It is struggling to access the CALF scheme, which would provide it with some financing for maintenance, whereas it is obliged to apply under the capital assistance scheme, CAS. There are issues regarding lettings under the scheme and so on. If the Minister is not able to give us a full answer here, I wonder if he might be in a position to meet the association. It wants to provide more housing but it wants to do so in a sustainable way. If it was able to access the CALF funding, it feels it would be in a better position to meet the challenge that has been put to it and all our approved housing bodies.

To answer the Deputy's first question on revised housing targets, I expect the Cabinet subcommittee on housing to meet in the coming weeks. I will bring forward proposals to that subcommittee and we will discuss them among the three parties. That is based on the work that has been done by a number of bodies, including the ESRI and the Housing Commission. That will feed into the revised housing targets for the remainder of the decade. The projections for completions for the remainder of this year are strong. We will exceed our housing target this year quite substantially. We will attain our social housing new-build targets this year and will exceed our affordable housing targets. We started in 2020 and 2021, when no affordable homes were delivered, went up to 1,757 the following year, then 4,011, and there will be well over 6,000 this year through our affordable delivery streams. Our delivery of social homes is strong too. The new-build programme, since the Government came into office, delivered nearly 26,000 new-build social homes up to 2023. I already mentioned in my opening statement that we have a pipeline of about 26,000 social homes being delivered but we will have strong delivery in quarter 4. I expect to publish the quarter 2 data in the coming weeks. We are verifying that at the moment.

We have provided for an additional €1.25 billion in capital for the Land Development Agency. It is delivering sites at scale. The Deputy would have seen the broken ground on St. Teresa's Gardens. It is a significant site. Oscar Traynor Road in the Deputy's area is well advanced. It has about 14,000 homes in its pipeline right now. Affordable homes have been launched at Shanganagh Castle. There are good affordable, cost-rental and social homes there. Our approved housing body partners are crucial.

On housing for persons with special needs and disabilities, I will arrange for our officials to meet the St. John of God Housing Association. I am aware of the housing association and the work it does. We have been looking at CALF and CAS and how that can be accessed, and some reviews within it.

We were recently doing some work with the Disability Federation of Ireland, looking at our own allocations. In the last full year, 16% of all housing allocations for social housing have gone to those with disabilities. There has been a really significant increase over the term of this Government. Bespoke housing that is specifically designed for those with acute special needs is something we want to continue to increase the level of. Overall housing allocation in 2023 included 16% for persons with disabilities. I am happy to see that happening. The Deputy has seen in the Supplementary Estimate today that the housing adaptation grants are not only popular across our local authorities and with people but that they are badly needed too. We have been able to provide an additional €8 million this year and will have an increased amount next year too for housing adaptation grants and disabled persons' grants.

The Minister might touch on an issue, although I do not expect him to have a solution to it. I refer to clarity on funding for local authorities, in particular to assist councillors and local authority members to understand how much money is coming in from central government and how much is disappearing in one fund and reappearing in another. Councillors really struggle to have a line of sight on that and it can be difficult for the finance sections in local authorities to explain because sometimes they do not get clarity on local authority funding for several weeks. That can pose a challenge when they are setting the city budget.

Deputy McAuliffe is referring to the Local Government Fund as opposed to what we give from a capital perspective. That is something on which there is and should be clarity, in particular for councillors in advance of setting their own budgets. I know many councils are preparing to set their budgets for next year.

I am directing my question to the Minister's officials as much as I am to him. From my experience of sitting on a finance group in a local authority, it can be very challenging not to know the details. For example, it can be very difficult to keep track of the cash in Dublin city, because of the very significant proportion of our budget required for emergency accommodation to deal with homelessness. I will leave the Minister with that point. We must support councillors in setting budgets. Dublin City Council's budget is the largest local authority budget across the country and it provides more than its fair share of emergency accommodation.

Equalisation funding is provided to local authorities in advance of their budgets, which should provide the clarity people need. Deputy McAuliffe is correct about Dublin City Council. It is the largest local authority and many of the services the State provides for people across the State are centred in Dublin, or there are more of them located in Dublin city. If we can provide any further clarity to the Deputy, we will do so.

Will the Chair allow me one last question? The Minister mentioned the tenant in situ scheme. From my experience in my clinic, it is transformative for people coming to us with an eviction notice who are then able to secure housing. I cannot underscore how important the scheme is. The level of openness and ambition that seems to have been available to the scheme in recent years should not be restricted in any way next year or the following year. I urge the Minister to continue to make funding available for the scheme because it is life changing when we are able to secure a home for someone who is at risk of eviction.

I agree. We are fully committed to it. We substantially exceeded our target last year. As the Deputy is aware, we started last year with an acquisition target of 200 but we purchased outright approximately 1,800 plus units. There were some teething issues at the start but we have a very strong pipeline now. We will also exceed the baseline target that we set this year of 1,500. It makes a colossal difference to families to secure a social housing tenancy.

I have some very specific questions for the Minister to help me understand the Estimate. I will start with capital and A3. Of the additional €552 million, some €255 million of that is for the development levy waiver. That means there is about €297 million left for social housing. Is the bulk of that to fund the tenant in situ scheme or have there been increased costs in the delivery of the new-build social housing programme for local government?

That means there is €297 million for the housing element of it, rather than the development levy waiver, and €97 million for the tenant in situ scheme. I looked at the statement from the previous Estimates. I am not clear on where the €200 million has gone. I say that in the sense that the €200 million was not in the original Revised Estimate, but it is in today's Revised Estimate. Working on the assumption that this year we might meet the full social housing new-build targets – there is a likelihood that will happen – I presume the extra money, which is the return of that €200 million, does not indicate that the Minister is going to exceed the target but it just relates to additional costs factored in for construction inflation and other costs.

There have, unquestionably, been additional costs, but we endeavour to manage them as best as we can. I am sure Deputy Ó Broin knows from talking to our delivery partners that the costs are managed within it.

For clarity's sake, I do not know if Deputy Ó Broin has the information, but in June when there was a temporary reallocation, it was €40 million to subhead A3, which is the Housing Agency, for cost-rental tenant in situ; €110 million to CREL; and €50 million to STAR. That €200 million is going back in. From the projections I have, there has been very strong delivery of new builds in quarter 4. I expect us to hit our new-build targets. We have sufficient funds to do that and to pay for them. That is where the Supplementary Estimate has come in as well. There will also be an overhang into next year on the tenant in situ purchases. There always is, due to the conclusion of conveyancing and other such issues. It is difficult to predict how much will be involved but we try to estimate it as best as we can. Like earlier this year, we will look at moving that within the Vote itself.

We will exceed our target on CREL. Since we changed the cost-rental equity loan and brought in the equity amount, and increased the amount to 55%, we have seen a substantial increase in applications in a very strong delivery for this year and into next year. On the capital assistance side, we are looking at an additional €20 million. We expect CREL to-----

There will be. The increase in the CREL includes an increase in what we spend on it, but there is construction price inflation as well. On the approval of our schemes, we are looking in particular at cost containment as well, especially on the management costs of those. We have been very strict on that. Schemes have not been approved straight away but have been sent back in particular on the cost-containment side of things. The €225 million is a significant extra amount. I want to be straight with Deputy Ó Broin, that is not all for additional housing delivery, but we will have much stronger delivery this year on cost rental.

Of the overall capital increase of €1 billion, some €200 million of that is not new money into the Department. It is the reversal of a temporary reallocation. Is it then the case that the other €800 million is all additional money coming into the Department, or is there other money that has been moved around programme level expenditure allocations?

It is additional moneys. Deputy Ó Broin is correct about the €200 million that is a reallocation and is being moved back. The development levy waiver in particular and the Uisce Éireann connection charge were policy decisions the Government made after we settled our ceilings. They were additional, as was the expansion of the tenant in situ purchases. I got agreement at the time I brought them forward that we would need additional capital to support them.

The other increase relates to current spend, where the big piece is the additional funding required for homeless emergency accommodation and service. I had flagged that with the committee when I was here in June of this year.

Okay. I will ask my final two questions. There is a very big jump in LIHAF funding. Last year, only €20 million was spent on it and this year's allocation was €10 million. There is an extra €225 million in there.

That is a very considerable change, and if there is any explanation for that, I would be interested in it.

There were two areas of expenditure announced on budget day where there was some difference between the budget book and the Minister's press conference announcement. It is just for the sake of clarity. One was the total allocation for the defects schemes. The budget book seemed to suggest €70 million but the Minister's press release suggested about €100 million, so I would like to clarify that.

Is it for the wider adaptation grants or the disability grants? There are two separate subheads.

On the planning staff, there is an extra €8 million allocated in the budget for next year. Obviously, not all of that is for staff; there seem to be a couple of other things in a reply the Minister gave to a parliamentary question. What is the additional sanction for local authority planning staff for next year above the 101 that were approved this year?

I thank the Minister for his briefing. I have short questions relative to the LDA and cost rental.

Representatives of the LDA spoke to us, I think, this year, with regard to the agency's targets being expanded for various reasons, and good reasons. Will the Minister expand on those targets and where the targets are now from where they were? The talk in the programme for Government was 40,000 units. The LDA has talked about going well over 60,000 and beyond that if it can. That is what it would like to do.

Connected to that is cost rental. The LDA has talked about 75% of the units it will be building being cost rental. The Minister mentioned earlier that we have exceeded this year's targets for cost rental. Does he have any idea if that trajectory will continue? Will we continue to exceed those targets going forward in the pipeline? Does the Minister have any idea where we are going with that?

Cost rental was new two and a half years ago. We have amended it to make sure it is viable in the schemes we are bringing forward. A lot of the big schemes we are seeing now are cost-rental apartments and multi-unit developments, which are great. A lot of them are what were paused planning permissions.

The LDA, to deal with it first, whose representatives were before the committee recently, has a pipeline of about 14,000 units. The vast majority of its affordable delivery is cost rental and it makes sense for the types of developments it is delivering. In Shanganagh, which many Deputies will know, there is a significant amount of cost rental on the affordable side, and in St. Theresa's Gardens and many others. The LDA has shared with members information on its pipeline.

With regard to where this goes, we had to step in and change the equity amount in cost rental because we were seeing the cost of borrowing increasing. When funding a scheme and trying to ensure the rent is a minimum of 25% below the market, which in all cases it is and in most cases is more than that, and then providing for the ongoing maintenance of it, we have to change cost rental or the cost rental equity loan, CREL, to assist in reducing the cost for the AHB sector and for the LDA. We are using measures like the changes in CREL and measures like STAR that we have brought forward, and these have brought forward many more schemes.

On what we are approving, I had a figure here on cost rental for the Deputy. He was asking about targets and I was looking at it earlier. To date, 2,180 cost-rental homes have been delivered by AHBs, local authorities and the LDA. A small number of them are cost-rental tenants in situ but it is 2,180. Funding has been approved under CREL for 4,800. That will tell the Deputy what the pipeline is for this year and into next.

On Deputy McAuliffe's question, we will be setting revised targets in the coming weeks. Our affordable housing delivery is very strong. Cost rental is very popular with people too, and we have to ramp that up further. We have more local authorities getting involved directly themselves, and I am sure Deputy Ó Broin will be aware of Tallaght in South Dublin where the local authority showed a great degree of flexibility in respect of the land cost. The local authorities can borrow at a rate that obviously is lower than that for the AHBs. The pipeline is very strong in that regard. There is such a demand for it that we really need to increase it substantially, but 2,180 cost-rental homes have been delivered so far.

The Government decided to give the LDA additional capital, and we did so, with the Deputy's support, through the amendment in the Housing (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2024 to permit the transfer of that capital to the Land Development Agency, which will underpin its pipeline right the way through to 2027. That certainty is very important for an agency like that so it can enter into contracts. We now have the framework arrangements in place with the development sector too. The outlook for the Land Development Agency is very positive.

We will always have to flexible with cost rental because while the cost of funds and borrowing is reducing marginally, we would like to see that reduced further and that would mean those reductions could be passed on to tenants. Also, other schemes would then come from the cusp of viability into viability, so more could be delivered there.

I have a couple of questions for the Minister, and then I want to raise something on the housing adaptation grants.

With these Supplementary Estimates, the combination for homelessness, subhead A13, will be €385 million in 2024 and the amount budgeted for 2025 is just €303 million in comparison. This seems to be happening every year, where the amount budgeted for homeless services is insufficient and then the Supplementary Estimates bring it up. What is happening most years is that the end-of-year total is more than what is budgeted for the next year. In budgeting terms, is this not a mistake that is being repeated every year? Should the 2025 figure not reflect more accurately the cost of supporting homeless accommodation in 2024? Should that not be our baseline? Why is this happening every year? Obviously, if the trajectory were going in the other direction, as we would all hope it will, we might expect a smaller figure.

Of course. It is a fair point, and I had flagged that in the past two years. When we negotiated the budget for last year, I negotiated a certain amount with a commitment that, if more was required, we would review it at mid-year, seek a Supplementary Estimate and any additional costs would be covered. We are seeing, not just in regard to the number of beds that need to be provided, because we have the required number of beds and the capacity to help people, a significant increase in the cost of the accommodation from accommodation providers.

I get the Deputy's point but we might disagree on this. We have set an amount which is above the beginning of last year. We review it mid-year because my ambition - and, I think, all of ours - is to see those numbers fall. We are still seeing cost increases. We are seeing relatively small net increases in respect of those in emergency accommodation. I am not getting away from the fact, as the Deputy does not either, that behind all of those numbers are people, families and kids. I know that very well but we have to be ambitious as we deliver more homes. The Deputy might have heard Pat Dennehy from Focus Ireland talking about this a couple of weeks ago. We have more options now for people because we are delivering more social homes. We are exiting people from emergency accommodation into safe and secure homes more quickly. I want to see that number decrease.

I assure the Deputy my agreement for budget 2025 is on exactly the same basis as it was for 2024 and 2023. We have set an allocation for homeless emergency services. Should we require more moneys, we will get them. That agreement has been made at Government and we have been good to our word on that. Our ambition is to see numbers of people in emergency accommodation reduce. Costs have increased, though, above and beyond the increase in numbers going into emergency accommodation.

In budget 2025, the total Exchequer capital funding for housing is €3.2 billion. With the Estimates for this year it is €3.466 billion when you add the different bits together. That is projecting €250 million lower for 2025 than the sum for 2024. It is a somewhat different type of expenditure but it seems we are projecting a lower overall capital spend for next year than the sum for this year. Is that not the wrong approach?

We are in a good position this year. We will be coming back to the committee with a supplementary to spend additional money on social housing delivery and the other things we have spoken of. In previous years when there were constraints on expenditure, such as when we had the construction shutdown, and we were not delivering the number of social homes we wanted, we reallocated that money elsewhere.

Next year, overall Government spend on housing is about €6.1 billion on the capital side. That is Exchequer plus LDA plus HFA. Money with regard to capital provision for housing, be it social or affordable, has never been an issue. It goes to the point I made earlier on revised housing targets. We are concluding our work on that with increased targets, as I have said publicly, including in the Dáil to committee members and Government colleagues. That would require additional capital. It is in the budget. The Minister, Deputy Chambers, is clear on that and on what the additional money from Apple will be used for. Housing will be a major element of it, as it was of the dispersal of resources following the sale of AIB shares. I expect additional allocations to housing for next year and we will also need additional private development.

I hope it is not too many. We are concluding the work on it. Even though some would not believe me, I listen to people across the House from time to time and we have taken a lot of feedback on that.

The ESRI has outlined 12 scenarios in its report in respect of the additional housing it believes is required. It is a complex piece of work but it will be ambitious and housing targets will be higher. It will be in the coming weeks.

I thank the Minister. On housing adaptations grants, I welcome the additional funding there. It is very much needed and these grants are very important. Fewer grants have been awarded in 2024 than in 2010. Since 2010, there has been a huge growth of almost 300,000 in our population in terms of people aged 65 years and older. There is a huge need here. ALONE put in freedom of information requests on waiting lists in local authorities and they showed thousands of people across the country are on those lists. Some local authorities do not maintain formal waiting lists. This is beneficial in adapting our housing stock, as well as for the individuals who need them and cannot be left waiting, as I am sure the Minister knows and understands. While the extra funding is welcome, why have we not been able to get the amount of money needed for the housing adaptation grants? This comes up across the country for political representatives across different parties.

Last year we provided significant additional funding in the supplementary to local authorities which were delivering, exceeding and being proactive on this. We have also changed and updated the grants, which is long overdue. I think everyone agrees on that. We have increased funding of €25 million. That will help us as well. There is a 33% increase in grant limits and a 25% increase in income thresholds, which have not changed since about 2011. We have increased the highest level of the grants. This has been called for by Government and Opposition Members for a number of years. I got Cabinet approval for it. That funding is from 2025 onwards, an increase of €25 million. I would like us to be able to implement those changes as soon as possible. If at all possible, I would like to have those grant rates applied this year for new applications coming in, so we do not have to wait until quarter 1 of next year. I am working with the local authorities on the regulations.

Deputy Ó Broin asked earlier, regarding the €100 million allocation in respect of housing adaptation grants, for the split between DPG grants and housing application grants. I do not have it to hand right now but will get it to him. If I dig it out before the end of the meeting, I will let him know about it.

We will circulate that correction to members. I thank Deputy O'Callaghan. I will take the next slot. A vote has been called in the Dáil. We have six minutes to get there but I will make some quick points.

It is positive to see a Supplementary Estimate coming in and providing extra money to spend on housing, homelessness, social housing, water services and cost rental. A large budget has been allocated to housing in the past couple of years and we have seen what it is producing. The Social Welfare Bill and Finance Bill are going through at the moment and we are all around long enough to remember different times. Across the water in the UK and France, the budgets are not in any way like ours. They are looking at stringent cuts across the board. In that context, what we are discussing is very positive.

Deputy O'Callaghan spoke of the importance of the housing adaptation measures and the extra €8 million for people being able to stay in their homes. Is that €8 million to let grants that have already been agreed go ahead, or is it an extra €8 million for-----

That is good. The CREL loan in subhead A28 was the cornerstone for cost rental and it is important to see that money going into it. We increased the percentage because costs are rising, and we are trying to keep rents at cost-rental at an affordable level. We have the 40-year model in the Affordable Housing Act. Is there a reason we cannot go beyond 40 years to bring down the overall cost of rentals, aside from it being in the legislation, which I accept? Would 45 years go against lending rules? Apart from increasing the allocation the whole time, can we look at spreading it out longer?

That is on the repayment piece. Most of our tenures are separate and are longer than that anyway at between 50 and 70 years. It is something the affordable housing team is reviewing and is working with the Housing Agency on. I think Deputy Ó Broin raised that with me a couple of weeks ago during oral questions. That is something that is being looked at to see if there is the ability to do it. It is a large State investment. When we are talking about Supplementary Estimates and Estimates, we are talking about spending, and it is Exchequer money. In many of these Vote areas like cost rental, it is also an investment by the State. It is important we do that. There is also an income stream. We are looking at that, and it is being looked at by the affordable housing team.

We have a social welfare Bill vote in the Dáil now.