COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS debate -
Thursday, 24 Oct 2024

The public business before us is as follows: minutes, accounts and statements, correspondence, consideration of a draft committee work programme, and any other business. The first item of business is the minutes of our meetings of 17 and 22 October, which have been circulated to members. Do members wish to raise any matters in relation to the minutes? No. Are the minutes agreed? Agreed. As usual, the minutes will be published on the committee’s webpage.

Eleven sets of accounts and financial statements have been laid between 14 and 18 October 2024. I will ask the Comptroller and Auditor General, Mr. Seamus McCarthy, to address them before opening the floor to members.

Dublin dental hospital financial statements for 2023 received a clear audit opinion, but I drew attention to disclosure by the hospital of a material level of non-compliance with procurement rules. No. 2, the Crawford Art Gallery Cork Limited for 2023, received a clear audit opinion. No. 3, an Bord Iascaigh Mhara for 2023, received a clear audit opinion. No. 4, the Regulator of the National Lottery for 2023, received a clear audit opinion. No. 5 is financial statements for 2023 for the National Lottery Fund, which is managed by the regulator. Those received a clear audit opinion.

No. 6, the Marine Institute for 2023, received a clear audit opinion. No. 7, the Sea-Fisheries Protection Authority for 2023, received a clear audit opinion. No.8 is the Maritime Area Regulatory Authority. This is a new audit. The period of account that the financial statements relate to is 17 July 2023 to 31 December 2023. They received a clear audit opinion. No. 9, the Irish Fiscal Advisory Council for 2023, received a clear audit opinion. No. 10, the Heritage Fund for 2023, received a clear audit opinion. No. 11, Ciste Pinsean Thithe an Oireachtais do Chomhaltaí for 2023, received a clear audit opinion.

Is it agreed to note the listing of accounts and financial statements? Agreed. As usual, the listing of accounts and financial statements will be published as part of our minutes.

I will move to correspondence. As previously agreed, items that were not flagged for discussion for this meeting will be dealt with in accordance with the proposed actions that have been circulated, and decisions taken by the committee in relation to correspondence are recorded in the minutes of the committee’s meetings and published on the committee’s webpage. Members have flagged two items for discussion under category B: correspondence from Accounting Officers and-or Ministers and follow-up to committee meetings.

No. R2852, received from Ms Anne Graham, chief executive officer of the National Transport Authority, dated 15 October 2024, is correspondence providing information requested by the committee on the national train control centre. I propose to note and publish this item. Is that agreed? Agreed.

This is to do with the train traffic management system. Originally, the estimate was for €148 million. The range could now be somewhere between €175 million and €205 million, with the project estimated to come in at approximately €188 million, which is obviously a substantial difference. I do not doubt that the system is needed, but can we write to the NTA to look for a timeline? Can we look for KPIs and milestones? What is its mitigation strategy to ensure that costs are kept as low as possible?

We saw that the recent timetable changes made a sizeable difference. Nothing will make the Loopline Bridge capable of taking more than the numbers that are going over it. That is one of the big impediments. There is obviously a difficulty with infrastructure. The DART interconnector is a huge missing piece. It just makes managing the system all the more important to get the absolute best out of it and have trains running safely. I do not doubt a national train control centre is needed, but could we write with those three queries?

We are being told in this correspondence that the current status of the development is commercially sensitive and the focus of the project is being reviewed. Essentially, the project has stopped. We should write to the Irish Strategic Investment Fund to get a status update. This is a non-answer. I am not satisfied with a non-answer. We need a status update. Approximately €24 million has been spent on this. It may well be that a refocus is important but we need to be satisfied at this stage, rather than glossing over it.

I will come in on that. I totally agree. It is not good enough. I understand that as a result of it being a commercial entity, the Department is able to claim that some of the information cannot be given, but we need to see if we can get any more information. That is agreed. We will do that. It is to be hoped we will get some kind of response before we meet again.

Updated actions are proposed for two further items of correspondence that were not flagged. No. R2874, received from the HSE and dated 22 October, contains a request that correspondence not be published in order to protect the HSE's confidentiality obligations. It is proposed to note and not publish this item. Is that agreed? Agreed. No. R2856, received from the OPW and dated 17 October, was circulated as a briefing for the meeting with the OPW on Tuesday of this week. At that meeting, it was agreed to note and publish this item. However, it is proposed to redact the phone numbers of the OPW attendees from the correspondence before publication. Is that agreed? Agreed. That concludes our consideration of correspondence today.

We will move on to the work programme. A draft work programme discussion document has been circulated to members, which is displayed on screen. Our next meeting is on 7 November, when we will engage with Children’s Health Ireland on its 2022 financial statements. It was agreed to invite the National Paediatric Hospital Development Board to that meeting, but the board has advised the secretariat that it is not available on this date. At the meeting of 4 October, it was agreed to add meetings with the Departments of Education and Transport to the work programme. The Department of Education has confirmed availability for 14 November, while the Department of Transport has indicated availability for 21 and 28 November.

I will come in regarding the meeting on 7 November. It is not good enough that the National Paediatric Hospital Development Board is unable to come in front of the committee on 7 November. At this stage, we know there is a very good chance that will be our last meeting and last opportunity to question the board on the huge cost overrun for the national children's hospital.

It is my understanding that it was initially contacted at the start of October. That has given it plenty of time to have witnesses before the committee. It is very important that we deal with this issue in its entirety. I suggest that we press ahead with the invitation for 7 November.

I think we probably still will be here on 7 November. There is the issue of invitations being sent ten days in advance and that would allow for 7 November. Otherwise I am happy to meet next week if it comes back and says it cannot do 7 November but can do next week. Would Deputy Murphy be in agreement with this?

We will write to it and extend the invitation. As we know, this was flagged with it at the beginning of October. If it says it cannot do 7 November, which is after ten days, we can state we are more than happy to meet it next week. It is in the public domain that the Dáil will not continue for much longer after 7 November. In the short period of time we have available to us, this particular issue needs to be dealt with by the committee. It needs to come before the committee. We are in agreement to do this and it is also okay on the clerk's part.

At election time so many different things are up in the air. It is an issue of great concern for us with regard to the spending of public money. It is also an issue of great public concern. It is very important that the committee can hold people to account and hear what exactly is going on and get to the bottom of it. We will issue the invitation and say there is no problem and that we are happy to meet next week if needs be.

Are there any more comments on the work programme? As there are not, that concludes our consideration of the work programme for today. Does any member wish to raise any other business? As no one does, we will go into private session briefly before adjourning until 9.30 a.m. on Thursday, 7 November, when we will engage with Children's Health Ireland.