COMMITTEE OF PUBLIC ACCOUNTS debate -
Thursday, 17 Oct 2024

The public business before us this afternoon is as follows: minutes, accounts and statements, correspondence, consideration of draft work programme and any other business.

The first business is the minutes of the meetings of 2, 3 and 10 October, which have been circulated to members. Do members wish to raise any matters in relation to the minutes? No. Are the minutes agreed? Agreed. As usual, they will be published on the committee's webpage.

Some 54 sets of accounts and financial statements were laid between 30 September and 11 October. I ask Ms Drinan from the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General to address them before I open the meeting to the floor.

Nos. 1 to 45 are the appropriation accounts for the financial year ending December 2023. They were presented to the Dáil by the Comptroller and Auditor General on 30 September with a clear audit opinion in all cases, which means the accounts properly present the transactions and financial position. For a number of accounts, certain matters were brought to attention, including links to chapters in the Report on the Accounts of the Public Services 2023, which the Comptroller and Auditor General presented simultaneously.

No. 46 is the Kilkenny and Carlow Education and Training Board, with a financial year end of December 2023 and a turnover of €90.1 million. It was certified on 26 August and presented on 2 October with a clear audit opinion.

Donegal Education and Training Board, with a financial year end of December 2023 had a turnover of €107 million. That was certified on 4 September and presented on 2 October with a clear audit opinion.

Then we have the Loughs Agency, a North-South body, with a financial year end of December 2022. It had a turnover of €10.9 million. That was certified on 10 May 2024 and presented on 2 October with a clear audit opinion.

The Personal Injuries Resolution Board, with a financial year end of December 2023, had a turnover of €13.1 million. It was certified on 15 July and presented on 3 October with a clear audit opinion.

Cavan and Monaghan Education and Training Board, with a financial year end of December 2023, had a turnover of €111 million. It was certified on 16 August and presented on 8 October with a clear audit opinion.

The Gathering Project 2013 is a dormant company that is a subsidiary of Fáilte Ireland, with a financial year end of December 2023. It has a nil turnover. It was certified on 28 June and presented on 8 October with a clear audit opinion.

An Bord Pleanála, with a financial year end of December 2023, had a turnover of €40.3 million. That was certified on 30 July and presented on 9 October with a clear audit opinion. However, attention is drawn to a number of matters of serious concern that arose in 2022 about the board's operations that required reviews and reports. The statement on internal control outlines the status of the reviews of these matters at the signing date. There was a similar reference when it was certified in the previous year.

The Digital Hub Development Agency, with a financial year end of December 2023, had a turnover of €4.4 million. It was certified on 2 August and presented on 9 October with a clear audit opinion. However, attention is drawn to the payment of a vacant site levy of €315,000 to Dublin City Council in respect of 2023. That arose in the previous couple of years as well.

The final body is the Waterford and Wexford Education and Training Board, with a financial year end of December 2023 and a turnover of €158 million. It was certified on 22 August and presented on 10 October with a clear audit opinion. However, attention is drawn to disclosure of a material level of non-compliance with procurement rules in the year.

I thank the Comptroller and Auditor General's office for the report. I wish to ask about An Bord Pleanála because we have engaged with it before. The work programme may be a moot point at this stage, but it is incumbent on us as a committee to ensure that because of the reports that have been compiled on the issues relating to 2022, we have it in our sights for an engagement in the next month or two. Do we have a date at this point for the next engagement, organically, with An Bord Pleanála or is it required to go on the work programme for us to engage with it?

I thank the Leas-Chathaoirleach. The Comptroller and Auditor General's office refers to reports that have been compiled on issues in 2022 and onwards. Are those reports now complete and in the Comptroller and Auditor General's possession or what stage are they at? If the reports are published and completed, that has a bearing on how this committee proceeds.

Basically, there are three different reports. The first was a conflict of interest analysis and report commissioned by the Minister. That is a confidential report that has been passed on to the Director of Public Prosecutions for further processing. There was an internal review, which the chairperson of An Bord Pleanála received on 26 July. As per the statement of internal control, it says it is expected the chairperson will require a period of time to consider the findings of this review before the contents might be shared externally, in addition to any actions taken to address any findings.

The Office of the Planning Regulator carried out a review in 2022, which was published in October 2022 with 11 recommendations. Then there was a second stage review, which was also published on 20 December with another 23 recommendations, of which 17 are fully completed and three are ongoing.

I thank Ms Drinan for that. We have spoken to An Bord Pleanála before about the internal control report - the second report to which Ms Drinan referred. Allowing for the chairman to have sufficient time and also to ensure this committee is diligent in its work, I suggest that in within the first month or two of 2025 this committee would seek to engage with An Bord Pleanála on the report. That is my proposal.

We can agree that. The last time An Bord Pleanála was in, one of the key issues was staffing. It is such a pivotal issue. We talk about planning and constraints. One of the biggest constraints is for An Bord Pleanála not to have sufficient people to make decisions in a timely way on matters coming before it. A number of issues merit consideration so I think we can agree on that.

Does Deputy Farrell want to raise anything?

We have a small number of audited bodies that are in a similar situation, where there is not a lot of activity or they are effectively dormant.

We engage with the Departments to ascertain whether there is an appetite or a need for those vehicles going forward. Certainly, in terms of the Gathering Project, we have engaged with the Department and its view is that it would prefer to retain it. It is probably convenient to have a vehicle in the event that the situation changes, rather than having to go through the statutory process and re-establishing. That can be part of the thinking. Obviously, in some cases, it requires statutory provision to remove it as well. That is also a consideration.

Is it agreed to note the listing of the accounts and financial statements? Agreed. As usual, the listing of the accounts and financial statements will be published as part of the minutes.

We will move to correspondence. As previously agreed, items that have not been flagged for discussion for this meeting will be dealt with in accordance with the proposed actions that have been circulated, and decisions taken by the committee with regard to correspondence are recorded in the minutes of the committee meetings and published on the committee's webpage. Members have flagged two items for discussion under category B - correspondence from Accounting Officers and-or Ministers and follow-up to committee meetings.

No. R2821, received from Deputy Catherine Martin, Minister for Tourism, Culture, Arts, Gaeltacht, Sport and Media, dated 25 September 2024, is correspondence to the committee with regard to RTÉ. I propose to note and publish this item. Is that agreed? Agreed. It relates to the scope section inquiry with regard to misclassified employees and tells us that two thirds have been identified as class A. Two items were raised on this, both of which relate to RTÉ.

The first one is the examination of the appropriation of public moneys to RTÉ and its expenditure. It has been suggested that the Government brings RTÉ back under the statutory remit of the Comptroller and Auditor General. Obviously, we will get an update on that. That was a recommendation from the Committee of Public Accounts in addition to the expert advisory group the Minister set up. Essentially, what we have been told is that it is certainly not going to happen before a general election. It is the Minister's intention to bring forward the general scheme of the Broadcasting (Amendment) Bill 2023 in the autumn to give effect to all the legislative recommendations. Presumably, that will be an issue that will be dealt with in this committee. However, we in the committee would be very supportive of that occurring as soon as it possibly can. There would be engagement with the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General, so it is proceeding as-----

Yes, we have been engaging with the Department. We have engaged with officials in terms of preliminary discussions. I think they were looking at the heads of Bill. Obviously, when there is detailed draft legislation, we will look at that as well insofar as it relates to the audit arrangements for RTÉ.

I will come in on that particular piece of correspondence. As the Leas-Chathaoirleach rightly pointed out, the committee worked exceptionally hard on that report following on from the large engagement not only with RTÉ, but also with the other ancillary individuals and agencies. This is another item that needs to reoccur on our agenda as a committee. The committee was very firm about the role of the Comptroller and Auditor General and the role of this committee with RTÉ and other similar bodies. Maybe we could look at that again in the December meeting or whenever.

I would be interested because, obviously, it is really important that RTÉ comes under the remit of the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General. How long in general would it take for a body to come under its remit? How long does that take on the Comptroller and Auditor General's side? Is it just simply that we are waiting on the Bill?

The other thing that stood out to me with regard to this correspondence is the whole issue of bogus self-employment, which is something the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General has looked at in detail. It seems to me that the final cost of it still is not fully clear unless I have missed something. Ms Drinan might have a view on that.

In terms of the question about the length of time, obviously, it really is dependent on the statutory process and the legislation being in place. From a purely operational perspective, it would be better for us if we had some notice and some certainty in terms of our own planning to make sure we have carried out the sufficient amount of planning and interim audit work we would normally carry out for larger audits prior to the end of the financial year. There is, therefore, a little bit there operationally as well. Certainly, once the legislation is in place then it becomes live, effectively.

Yes, and we look at that in the context of the Estimates annually. As the Leas-Chathaoirleach mentioned earlier, we have a portfolio of audits that we carry out. That changes constantly because there are mergers and new bodies created and bodies wound down. We look at that in the round and, obviously, we are aware that an audit like that is coming down through the system and we factor that in as well.

No. R2828 is from RTÉ. As I said earlier, it is an update on the settlements with regard to the scope section. When we were originally told about the time estimate on this, it was 15 years and then the next time we had an engagement, it had been reduced to three years. There has been ongoing engagement, and this is an update. We factored in a need to have updates and we need to continue to have those updates. I am sure the next Committee of Public Accounts will receive them as well because individuals are impacted by this. Approximately two thirds would have been employees as opposed to self-employed, and one third would have been identified as class S, which is self-employed. Obviously, the majority should have been employed as direct employees. I propose to note and publish this item. Is that agreed? Agreed. This concludes our consideration of correspondence today.

We will move on to the work programme. We are expecting a general election, but we still have to continue the work in the event that does not happen. Members have been circulated with a draft programme and discussion document, which is displayed on the screen now. Next Tuesday, 22 October, we will engage with officials from the Office of Public Works with regard to the 2023 appropriation account for Vote 13 - Office of Public Works; and chapters 4 and 5 of the Comptroller and Auditor General's annual report. Specific areas of interest flagged for the meeting include the proposed national children's science museum, the Leinster House bike shelter, the security pavilion in Government Buildings and the proposed conversion of the Oireachtas Library into a committee room.

It is proposed to also flag the cost of fencing along the Grand Canal in Dublin and the OPW contractors lists as areas of interest. We should also include the issue of modular homes. We may flag that with the OPW. That was one of the high-profile issues in the-----

I ask members to please note that this meeting will take place at 11 a.m. in committee room 4 on Tuesday. It is obviously unusual for us to have a second meeting in the week. In our usual time slot next Thursday, 24 October, we will engage with the Health Service Executive on the 2023 financial statements and chapter 17, which is on the Health Service Executive’s integrated financial management system. Specific areas of interest flagged for this meeting include non-compliant procurement, staffing and remuneration and the capacity of University Limerick Hospitals Group. That is next Thursday if nobody has anything to add.

It was agreed to meet with Children's Health Ireland and the National Paediatric Hospital Development Board on 7 November with regard to their respective 2022 financial statements. At the meeting of 4 October, it was agreed to add meetings with the Department of Education and the Department of Transport to the work programme. I propose that we schedule these meetings for 14 and 21 November. Is that agreed?

I understand the National Paediatric Hospital Development Board is not available to meet on 7 November. That was a meeting we particularly wanted to have because it is the biggest set of accounts that are outstanding. They are a year older than most accounts that come before the committee. Some of that may relate to some of the claims being made by the contractor. We particularly wanted to have that meeting and it is very disappointing that the board is not available to meet us on 7 November. Is it agreed to go ahead with Children's Health Ireland on that day in the absence of the National Paediatric Hospital Development Board and that the meeting with the board be rescheduled for another date?

Is there any possibility of getting the board in at another time that week? I am just concerned. We obviously have no idea when the election will be called but that is the week the Finance Bill is due to be discussed in the finance committee and the election could potentially be called the following week. If this has been outstanding for this long and if it is such an issue of public concern, we should have the board in front of us and not push the meeting back to a week when we may not be here.

At the meeting of 4 October, it was agreed to add meetings with the Department of Education and the Department of Transport to the work programme. I propose that we schedule these meetings for 14 and 21 November. Is that agreed? Agreed. A discussion document has been circulated with the proposals for future engagements, including engagements with the Department of Finance, the Office of the Revenue Commissioners, the Department of Social Protection, the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform, the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage and the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications. Do members wish to comment on this work programme? We may have a better idea next week. That concludes the consideration of the work programme.

The last item on the public agenda for today's meeting is any other business. Do any members with to raise any other matters?