Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 2 Oct 2024

My Department delivers capital funding to the sector to support capacity growth. This year, the building blocks expansion scheme is funding reconfigurations of services to enable them to increase the number of places, particularly for one- to three-year-olds. I will launch the building blocks extension scheme soon, which will make €25 million available next year in large-scale capital grants for services to undertake building projects to increase their capacity. Again, this will primarily be focused on places for one- to three-year-olds. Funding will also be available to existing community services to purchase or construct new premises.

The flagship core funding scheme, which began in 2022, is designed to support services with costs of delivery. Between year one and year two of the scheme, the number of hours of services delivered annually increased by almost 8%. Further capacity growth of approximately 6% is built into the forecasting of the scheme for year three, which began earlier this month.

The outcome from the joint labour committee, JLC, process continues to be supported by the Government through core funding. In budget 2025, I secured an additional €15 million to support employers to meet the costs of further increases to the minimum rates of pay in the sector. This translates into full-year costs of €45 million. Recruiting and retaining staff is crucially important to maintaining and growing capacity. In addition, I am increasing the availability of regulated and subsidised early learning and childcare. Following the commencement of new regulations on 30 September, parents who use childminders will soon be able to access the national childcare scheme.

It is important that we develop a detailed and nuanced understanding of the nature of supply and demand at local area level. To this end, I have initiated work on a forward planning model that will identify the number of early learning and childcare places in different categories in each service, whether or not those places are occupied and how that aligns with the numbers of children in the corresponding age cohorts at local level.

I thank the Minister. The first point he made relates to capital expenditure and the provision of extensions and new builds under the building blocks scheme. However, the 33,000 children who need a childcare place today cannot wait for the capital projects and extensions, which, in many cases, I presume, will require planning permission. Some providers have the physical space needed but they have closed rooms because they cannot get the staff. They physically cannot staff those rooms. In order to build capacity, we really need, number one, to look at the wages in the sector and we also must be innovative in looking at existing buildings. As I have said previously, I can think of several community centres in my own area that are either vacant all of the time or underused during the day. We need to look at existing buildings in our communities, which could be used as shared spaces, rather than looking for capital funding and planning permission to build. The other issue is buildings that have already been built as part of housing developments but are left idle.

I might return in my next contribution to the last issue the Deputy raised. Regarding capital, we announced a capital scheme in 2023 that was drawn down this year. That will already be delivering additional places. The Deputy is absolutely right regarding existing buildings. The new capital scheme I am set to announce in the next number of weeks will allow community services, in particular, to purchase existing buildings. They might be unused ones, as she mentioned, or buildings that were provided in housing developments. The scheme was designed to be flexible to allow for that. Community services can get the full cost of the buildings for private providers. It is a 50:50 arrangement, which is an appropriate division between the State stepping up with support and private providers bringing some resources themselves.

The Deputy is right on staff funding. In the budget announced yesterday, we have made provision for a pay increase next year. It is dependent on the employment regulation order, ERO, and on us making sure all staff get the benefit of that through a pay increase. The Government has financed two pay increases through an ERO process. They were the first ever mandated pay increases for early learning professionals.

I acknowledge that. However, the last pay increase that was achieved was 65 cent. It took 14 months to negotiate it. It could not be done around the table, with workers having to seek assistance from the Labour Court. If they wait another 14 months and get about 60 cent, we will lose the early years educators we desperately need from the sector. There are childcare places that would be available if the providers could staff the rooms, particularly baby rooms. I have seen that in my county of Roscommon, where baby rooms have been closed because the providers cannot get the staff. If we have to wait 14 months for a pay increase for early years educators, given the rise in the living wage that is coming, there will be about 15 cent in the difference between the minimum rate for those workers and the living wage. That is of huge concern if we are to build capacity within the sector.

I welcome what the Minister said in regard to existing buildings. That really needs to be looked at in terms of building capacity and doing so quickly. Using existing buildings is the quickest way to build capacity, particularly in rural areas where it may not be viable for a provider to operate or no provider exists.

As the Deputy knows, the JLC process is an independent process. We have improved it by the State stepping up and saying clearly to the parties that if they get a pay agreement, we will back it up in terms of meeting some of the extra wage costs for providers. It was disappointing that it took 14 months last time. I was very clear in what I announced yesterday that the allocation for staff pay is dependent on the ERO. The money will only flow to the services if we have that ERO in place. People working in the services say to me when I meet them that staffing is their biggest pressure. We are stepping up with money to support staff pay but I am very clear that we need the ERO in place. We are saying this now to ensure there is plenty of time for the process to kick-start and deliver on time. I and whoever succeeds me in my role must be very clear that we want to support that. As we go forward on an annual basis, we hope to provide an additional core funding allocation just for pay, which will subsequently translate into a pay increase for our amazing childcare professionals.

The data available to my Department demonstrates that, overall, early learning and childcare provision is expanding. The early years sector profile survey shows that between the 2021-22 year and the 2022-23 year, the estimated number of enrolments in services rose by 8% and the estimated number of staff in the early learning and childcare workforce also rose by 8%. Data from Tusla on service closures and new service registrations shows a net increase of 129 in the overall number of services in 2023. Core funding application data shows that between year one and year two of the scheme, annual place hours increased by almost 8%.

I acknowledge, however, that there is evidence of some parents having difficulty in finding the type of provision they would like for their children.

The early years sector profile survey shows that between 2021-22 and 2022-23, the proportion of services with at least one child on a waiting list increased slightly, from 47% to 48%. The counties with the highest proportion of services with at least one child on a waiting list were Monaghan, at 67%, followed by Dublin city, at 63%. The counties with the lowest proportion of services with at least one child on a waiting list were Offaly, at 32%, followed by Mayo, at 34%.

It is relevant that we advise a bit of caution when we talk about waiting lists because, first, not every service operates a waiting list, which is very much based on determination of the service, and, second, some children are on waiting lists for a number of services, which impacts on the overall figures.

Importantly, as I noted in my response to Deputy Kerrane, we have created a forward planning unit the Department designed to look at demand and need across the various demographics and across the country and engage with local authorities and the county and city childcare committees to better understand and therefore better design our responses to it, whether that is through capital or regulations.

I appreciate that the Minister stated percentage increases but I do not see any hard figures. All of us in the Opposition rely on hard figures. I appreciate the point the Minister is making, if I am reading him correctly, that it is not possible to give an exact top-line figure for the number of people waiting. However, it is clear from the running theme in the questions so far this morning that there is an evidence base that there is a shortage of places. I am merely trying to interrogate how many more places we need. The Minister stated he started a forward planning unit. This is one of the biggest issues for families with young children.

The Minister has made some utterances in the past on having a public model, as has the Taoiseach. How soon will that be implemented? What planning has taken place for that?

Capacity is now our core challenge in early years. Four years ago when I became Minister, the challenge was staff pay, which remains a challenge. The challenge was also the cost of childcare for parents. We have done a lot to meet that. It is still too expensive for some parents but we have taken important steps. The challenge was the sustainability of providers. In year four, core funding will be €390 million. Core funding did not exist before I became a Minister. It has gone a significant way to meeting the sustainability challenges of providers.

Capacity is the challenge now. We are bringing forward the capital funding so we can build new services. We are paying our staff better so they can improve recruitment and retention in order that we can ensure that every room that is designed can be opened. We are working with the Department of housing to improve the planning regulations in respect of the design of new early years services in new estates and their delivery. Too often, they are part of the plan but are not actually delivered.

It would be useful if the Minister could furnish me with the reply and the breakdown by county in numerical form as opposed to percentage increase form.

I reiterate the point I made on the movement towards a public model. The Taoiseach, on 11 September, stated, “I want childcare to be part of the public education system”. That is the Taoiseach saying that. He also said there was “more work to be done” around available places and expressed concern about places. I note the Minister’s response and the moves within his Department to try to address capacity issues. However, I hope we hear from him today what he and the Government are seeking to do, based on the Minister's and the Taoiseach’s public commentary, to develop a public model of childcare where the State pays childcare workers.

The Deputy asked my view and I am very happy to give it to him. I believe the two years of ECCE should be legislated for on a statutory basis, so that every child has the right to access ECCE. Second, I believe that in areas of high capacity, the State now needs to step in and look at providing services directly. A combined model of public provision, community provision and private provision can work for the delivery of childcare everywhere. Third, the issue of staff pay is absolutely fundamental. That will require continued investment. I have more than doubled investment in childcare in the past four years. That is an important step forward but there is still a long way to go to bring us in line with other European countries in terms of what we invest in early years. Much as been achieved in four years. We now have an opportunity in the general election campaign to set out a vision for early years in the next five to ten years.

The mother and baby institutions payment scheme opened for applications in March this year. As of 30 September, more than 5,160 applications had been received. There are 4,540 fully completed applications that have proceeded into the processing system. The payment scheme office is supporting the remainder, namely, those applicants with incomplete applications who need to provide some further information.

Just under 3,200 notices of determination have been issued to applicants, over 81% of which contain an offer of benefits under the scheme. Applicants then have six months to consider their offer before they need to respond to the payment office. Just over 1,750 payments are either processed and completed or in the process of being made, and the total amount paid out under the redress scheme to date is €27,440,500.

All information on the scheme and how to apply can be found at the dedicated payment scheme website, which includes a booklet, questions and answers, and a how-to video. A helpline is also available. Overall, we have received positive feedback that applicants are finding the application process straightforward and the information line helpful.

I have authorised the next phase of the public awareness campaign about the scheme to commence later this month. There was an initial phase in March to June, which took place in Ireland, the UK, the USA and Australia across a range of different mediums.

There have been a number of instances of delays, of which the Deputy raised some. These delays can emerge for different reasons, for instance, if the payment scheme office has to contact applicants to seek further information or if there are issues in the verification of application details. In such cases, the payment scheme office engages with the applicant to resolve those difficulties so the applications can be processed as quickly as possible. Each and every application is being handled on an individual basis to ensure thorough and accurate processing. Depending on the nature of the case, the response timeline can vary.

It is welcome that just under 1,800 payments are in the process of being made or have been made. However, the fact that 34,000 survivors are eligible to apply for the scheme shows the need for the public awareness campaign. People who are entitled to this payment and can apply for it clearly have not done so, for whatever reason. We need to make sure the process is as easy and straightforward as possible.

I know of two cases to date where the person who applied passed away while waiting for their payment. People who applied in March are still waiting. The thousands of applications that have been received need to be gone through as quickly as possible to make sure we get supports to these survivors as quickly as possible. A number of people who have contact me have said the communication has not been great. They have not been given any timeline as to when they will get the notice of determination and when they will be paid. Everything related to the scheme needs to be looked at to make sure it is working ahead of the public awareness campaign.

If there are specific instances that the Deputy wants to draw to my attention - many Deputies have been involved in this area - I will be happy to examine them, as I am always happy to do. We want to make this scheme work as quickly as possible.

The scheme has been up and running for seven months now.

Some 1,800 people have already received payments and, as I said, over €27 million has already been paid out to applicants within seven months of the establishment of the scheme. The Deputy is right that there have been 5,000 applications so far. We made a decision to pace the public information campaign and to put it out piece by piece, recognising that there may be some people who are uncomfortable about applying initially. We want to ensure that awareness gets out there and that the awareness is international because we recognise there is a high likelihood that a substantial number of the potential beneficiaries of the scheme do not live in Ireland and that following their time in these institutions, they moved to other jurisdictions. We are working closely with embassies and Irish groups in other countries to consider how best to communicate the information.

I thank the Minister. He has acknowledged the delays and such is the nature of applications. There are sometimes delays where additional information is needed or the applications need to be looked at again. How many people are dealing with the processing and issuing of these payments?

I was recently contacted by a survivor who had received a letter to state they would be given the enhanced medical card. The letter included a full list of what the survivor could access in home care and other supports. The person contacted me to ask how to access those supports with the enhanced medical card. I rang the medical card division which asked me to contact representatives of the payments scheme. Those representatives told me to contact the medical card division. Neither could give me the information, one way or another. I know that individuals have been put in place by the HSE to act as a support and engage with people, which is welcome. However, we need to put their contact details on the letters that are issued to people so they know who to contact and are not ringing from one to the other looking for the information.

I thank the Deputy. She has spoken about an enhancement to the roll-out of the scheme that has been put in place. It is important to recognise that we are looking to make this scheme as easy as possible for people to get the initial award of a payment, a medical card or both, and to draw down the benefit. The Deputy identified a slight lacuna. A resource is being put in place to address the issue. I hope that will be evidence to the Deputy and to others that we are learning and always looking to design the scheme as effectively as possible.

There is a unit in my Department with oversight of the overall application of the scheme. There is a separate unit doing the day-to-day work of processing. I will come back to the Deputy with the exact figures, if that would be useful. As she knows, there is an appeals process. Where an application for the scheme is unsuccessful, the person concerned is entitled within six months of the notice of the termination of the scheme to make an appeal. That works within statutory timelines.

I ask the Minister if he will fund a physical survey of the estate of Bessborough mother and baby home in Cork city to locate the possible burial place of more than 800 children who are unaccounted for and who died in Bessborough or in hospital after being transferred from Bessborough. I ask him to outline plans the Government has for this site and to make a statement on the matter.

I thank the Deputy. I am conscious of the hurt felt in particular by the survivors and family members of people who died in Bessborough. One of the most tragic aspects of what happened in that particular mother and baby institution was the uncertainty regarding the burial places of the many children who were resident there and the many children who we know died there and in some linked institutions. The investigation of burial arrangements in mother and baby institutions, including in Bessborough, was an important part of the work of the commission of investigation. In Bessborough, the commission carried out cartographic and landscape assessments of possible unrecorded burial arrangements. It also carried out a site survey and followed up with responses. The commission concluded that it is likely that some of the children who died in Bessborough are buried on the grounds but it was not able to find the physical or documentary evidence. As no evidence of locations was found, the commission did not consider it feasible to excavate the full available site, which now amounts to 60 acres, or the full original site, which would have been over 200 acres. Right now, I am not aware of any detailed proposals for Government funding to undertake a further survey of the Bessborough grounds. Given the scale of the current estate and the wider estate, excavation would have a significant cost and we must recognise that.

My Department provided support to survivors and relatives of former residents of Sean Ross Abbey and a site examination was carried out after they came to us with a specific proposal. I know there have been planning applications for the land in Bessborough, including for what is seen as the potential burial site and for other lands. In September, An Bord Pleanála rejected a planning application and one of the reasons it did so was that the site concerned was the potential location of a burial site on the lands.

We do not know the full extent of the infant deaths in Bessborough. The order's records are unreliable and its statements to the commission were nothing short of abject lies in an attempt to scramble away from justice. At least 928 babies died in Bessborough but only 64 graves have been identified. The Department of local government at the time chalked the scale of infant deaths down to "conditions associated with the unfortunate lot of the unmarried mother". Survivors of Bessborough have never received justice from the religious orders that abused them or the State, which facilitated it and turned a blind eye. The very least the State owes survivors is to find the bodies of their children. We need an investigation of the grounds to establish the location of the remains of the babies and to conduct a sensitive excavation and a dignified exhumation of any of the remains. The entire site at Bessborough should be subject to a compulsory purchase order, CPO, and established as a memorial site.

The Minister replied that given the scale of the site, we will not bother or there is no plan to do it. I ask him again to ensure that it occurs.

I thank the Deputy. I have had the opportunity to visit the site at Bessborough with a number of survivors and former residents. I know there are differing views on the excavation and reburial of human remains at that site. When we discussed Tuam, there was absolute agreement about the treatment of remains and the State's response. I do not think there is unanimity about the response at Bessborough. That is not to say that the State should not do anything but it is important that when we speak of engaging with survivors, we must recognise that different survivors sometimes have different views as to how the State should respond on a particular site.

I point to the fact that in respect of Sean Ross Abbey, the State supported survivor groups to undertake further investigations. It has happened previously. It is, however, important that we try to seek some degree of consensus among the survivors on our approach to these sites.

Sometimes it feels like there is a disconnect in respect of how the Minister speaks about this issue and the lived experience of people. I will give one example. In 1960, 18-year-old Madeleine Walsh was sent to Bessborough. Her baby son, William, fell ill when he was three days old and was taken from her. He died when he was six weeks old. After years of requests for information, she was informed by nuns that he lay in an unmarked grave at Bessborough folly. She visited that spot for years to be near her son and to speak to him until 2019, when the fifth interim report revealed that the nuns had lied. William had actually been buried in an overgrown famine graveyard on Carr's Hill. There seems to be no end to the cruelty that is heaped upon these women by religious orders and the State. At every step, the Department has failed them. So many women and children who were in Bessborough have been excluded from the discriminatory redress scheme. Every woman who was forced to scrub floors, do laundry and clean nappies, day in and day out until her hands were raw, is completely excluded from the work-related payment.

As the Minister said, a planning application was rejected recently because of the known unmarked mass grave of children. There is no reason the State should provide a survey for the excavation of Tuam and not for the other sites. We know that survivors are not a homogenous group but how can the Minister say that one group deserves answers and justice while another does not?

That is a really difficult question to answer. How do we seek some degree of agreement or alignment among survivors on a site when there are clear differences as to how to proceed?

I will not lie to the Deputy; I do not have the full answer for her today. There are different groups of survivors represented in Tuam but I know from my engagement when I travelled to Tuam and met survivors there, that everyone is unanimous on the need to intervene because of the treatment of the remains of children at that site. That same degree of unanimity does not exist in respect of Bessborough. Particularly before undertaking the scale of intervention that will be undertaken in Tuam, there would have to be some effort to bring together a degree, perhaps not even consensus, but at least of an understanding among everybody in terms of the way.

As the Deputy says, there is a site that some relatives see as a burial ground and that they recognise as the graves of their children. For others, as the Deputy has so correctly identified, there are other family members who have no idea where their loved ones are buried after they died due to the treatment in Bessborough. Creating that degree of consensus is difficult. I do not have all the answers today but on the Bessborough site in particular, because the grave site is unknown, I absolutely recognise there is further work to be done to try to bring about that degree of consensus.

If I could state, with the Leas-Cheann Comhairle's indulgence, the special advocate for survivors, Ms Patricia Carey, is now in place. I might talk to her to see if there is any way we can advance that.

My question is about the provision of childcare in the State. This is a burning question for the upcoming general election and has been for the last number of decades, related to childcare provision becoming unaffordable for many parents. What measures has the Government taken in terms of increasing childcare provision in the State?

I thank the Deputy for his question. Improving access to quality and affordable early learning and childcare is a key priority for me as Minister. The data available shows that the level of capacity in the sector has risen substantially in recent years. However, I am aware that nationally, and in my own constituency as well, some parents are having difficulty in locating the type of affordable early learning and care provision they would like for their children. That is particularly acute for younger children.

The building blocks capital schemes, which operated over 2024 and will operate next year, are supporting services to increase capacity through two strands, namely, the expansion scheme, which was drawn down this year, and the extension scheme which I will announce in the next number of weeks and which will be drawn down in 2025. The extension scheme will mean €25 million of capital funding is available next year to deliver thousands of new affordable early learning and childcare places. It will offer funding for larger-scale projects to enable both existing community services and private services to build new capacity into their current premises by means of physical extension. It will also allow existing community services to apply to purchase or construct entirely new premises.

This programme of support for the provision of places builds on a substantial legacy of fostering the development of the sector and the establishment and expansion of services, most explicitly through previous capital programmes, but equally through the various current funding streams. My Department will continue to progress a range of actions, such as core funding and the recently launched initiative for childminders, to ensure the supply of early learning and childcare meets demand. Work in this area is being led by a supply management unit which I established in my Department earlier this year.

I will also work closely with ministerial colleagues and particularly with the Minister for housing, Deputy Darragh O'Brien. We are looking to review the regulations surrounding the building of a childcare facility when new housing is built. That happens but as the childcare facility often is not delivered or is not designed appropriately, we are looking to revise those regulations and I hope that we will bring forward drafts soon.

We acknowledge there has been progress in terms of childcare provision but we also acknowledge the disparate nature of childcare in the State where the majority of childcare provision is privatised. The Scandinavian model is a better model as it is publicly funded and childcare provision is essentially free. That is a better model than the disparate nature of what we have at the moment. Does the Minister accept we should have that model rather than the model we have at the moment? Our model is arbitrary in terms of how parents can avail of the provision of childcare. Staff shortages also have a huge effect on childcare. There are a lot of factors in terms of retention of staff. Given all that, does the Minister think the better model is the one we alluded to that is particularly common in Scandinavia?

It is important, while acknowledging the imperfections of how our system operates right now, that we always acknowledge the amazing work done in so many services all over the country, both community and private, in looking after our children and providing early learning and care.

I believe there is a greater role for the State in the direct provision of early learning and care, particularly in areas of low provision and where capacity is under pressure. I would like to see the State have a greater role there which would be beneficial in terms of addressing some of those capacity challenges that we spoke about. I agree with the Deputy in terms of the importance of recruitment and retention of staff. That is why in the budget yesterday, I announced a dedicated allocation of core funding in 2025 that is dependent on a new wage agreement being reached between employers and the unions representing childcare professionals.

In terms of cost, childcare for some families is costing over €1,000 per month and that is cheap in some ways. That is a huge cost which is almost like a mortgage. What would the Minister consider a manageable fee if there is still a model where parents have to pay? Those costs should not be accepted. They are crippling for parents. While there are community-based crèches that are free and on-demand, there is also a huge cohort of people who have to pay a huge amount of money. How does one address their childcare needs and the cost for those families?

I hope I have demonstrated over the last four years my absolute determination to reduce costs. I have done that through the increases in the national childcare scheme, NCS. On average, we have been able to halve costs for parents. That has to be acknowledged. I would like to go further if I am part of the next Government. I will look to continue to go further but I caution on costs, Deputy. I hope in the next general election childcare is a central issue but I hope the debate is not just about the cost.

Right now, the Deputy's question actually sets out what the bigger challenge is. I believe capacity, rather than cost, is the biggest challenge right now. The big question the next Government has to address is how do we make sure every child has access to the type of early learning and care their parent wants. The first step towards doing that is to provide that statutory right to ECCE as 95% of children get ECCE right now but it is not a legal right. If you enshrine it in law, it places a greater emphasis on the next Government to ensure those places are delivered as the core of early learning and care.