Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 9 Jul 2024

I will raise some key points about the progress the national development plan, NDP, is making for the people of County Donegal. I highlight where we are with the national broadband plan. At the moment there are 20 connected remote working hubs in County Donegal. I point to the upgraded N56 in County Donegal, which was reopened following an investment of more than €100 million and I understand the road project also contains progress on viewing points and walking and cycling routes.

We have published an NDP progress report that highlights all the different progress that has been made in different regions, including County Donegal. That document lays out in more detail the progress that is happening there. It is accompanied by the work that is taking place in the PEACE PLUS funding programme which looks to prioritise investment in peace and prosperity, not only in Northern Ireland, but also in the adjacent Border counties, including County Donegal. A small, but valuable example of the impact that is having is that €7.6 million of additional funding was allocated to Donegal County Council, which I understand will fund 32 different projects in the county.

However, if the Deputy wishes to raise any particular projects that are not taking place in the county, I am sure he will do so now.

I thank the Minister for his response. Some of the aspects he mentioned will be noted as achievements by different Ministers over time. We will see them being rehashed as time goes on.

The Minister mentioned additional projects. It is important that the NDP review is taking place at the moment and there should be different projects in it. The Minister mentioned the N56 in his response. The N56 was not closed. It was upgraded in parts, but substantial parts are still in need of upgrading and need to be placed on the national development plan, including the road from Mountcharles to Killybegs, which needs to be upgraded to ensure the access to the port in Killybegs can be utilised and maximised for the benefit of the whole county, especially the south.

I presume PEACE PLUS is an EU funded programme, so the funding coming from the EU will address those issues. I may have some additional points.

I was not claiming to have delivered the projects myself. I want to make that clear. I just stated that they are examples of projects that the NDP has delivered over a number of years. Work remains to be done on the N56. I heard what the Deputy said about that.

I will quickly list other projects that are under way across the county, such as different residential care facilities at different locations from Letterkenny to Ballyshannon to Falcarragh Community Hospital, to Buncrana and Dungloe. Social housing projects are being delivered, for example, on Convent Road. The total number of social housing projects delivered in 2023 was 100 new homes. There is a Killybegs town centre regeneration programme and a new library, IT and educational building is under way in LYIT - I assume that is Letterkenny Institute of Technology. They are the kinds of projects that are under way. The Deputy will make the case for more to be done, but I wanted to update the Dáil on those important projects that are being delivered.

The Minister is right. There is a need for more to be done because County Donegal has been significantly underdeveloped. That is partly down to the Border and Border issues. The county only has 4 km of Border with the Twenty-six Counties and has been very much left to its own devices for many years. That funding gap needs to be addressed and the Government should make it a priority to ensure it will be.

I ask that schemes such as the N56 from Mountcharles to Killybegs and from Glenties to Ardara be added to the review of the national development plan. That is vital. Other projects will be needed in the county. It is good to see investment taking place but it needs to step up and be continued.

I will certainty keep that in mind. Every TD always makes the case for investment in their county and constituency but I am particularly aware of the funding and infrastructure needs Donegal has and the challenges it faces in making sure the road infrastructure and public transport links are in place. I have heard the Deputy make the case over many years that they are not. We will continue our efforts to increase capital funding in our economy. I accept there is a need for that funding to be spent in a way that benefits the people of Donegal. As the Deputy will know, many other TDs here this evening will make the case for their own county and constituency and I have to take heed of that as well.

As a point of order, I bring to the attention of the House that my question is No. 39, not No. 40, and deserved to be taken first in ordinary questions. A precedent has obviously been set whereby somebody can convert from ordinary questions to priority questions. No disrespect to Deputy Pringle at all but I will not let it pass again. That should be brought to the attention of those officials responsible.

That is with no disrespect to the Cathaoirleach Gníomhach because she had nothing to do with it.

The question is one I have raised before. It concerns the importance of ensuring all Government expenditure targets remain within their projected arena, that Departments have a good chance of achieving their targets and that the targets will not cause a problem for the economy. I will develop that further.

I thank the Deputy for raising an important issue for me. Expenditure profiles for 2024 were completed by all Votes in February and submitted to my Department. Performance against these profiles is used in-year to monitor the expenditure position and details are published monthly in the Fiscal Monitor.

At the end of the second quarter of 2024, gross voted expenditure stood at €47.1 billion. This demonstrates the significant investment the Government continues to provide across the public service to protect living standards, improve public services and safeguard our future through enhanced capital investment. This level of spending is 3.3% above projections for this period. While the majority of Vote groups remain at or near profile, the figures demonstrate a number of developing risks that require continued expenditure management across the remainder of the year.

Among the areas showing the most significant deviations from profile is health, which at the end of June was overspent against profile by €1 billion, or 9.7% up on where we expected to be. This is the main driving factor behind the overall overspend position and there continues to be ongoing engagement between my Department and the Department of Health in this regard. Other areas where there are significant variations from profile at the end of June are education; children, equality, disability, integration and youth; and housing. Part of this reflects increased capital spending, with the end June position reflecting the better than expected delivery on social housing and school buildings in the year to date.

What is the extent to which the Minister - obviously continuously - monitors the performance of each Department, with particular reference to the areas he mentioned, in regard to infrastructure such as health services, schools, children and the disability sector? Is he satisfied, given the expansion of the population and ongoing demands, that targets are being met or will be met? Are further corrective measures needed?

I monitor it. Every month when the figures come out, they are given the utmost attention by my Department and me and they form the centre of engagement I have with other Ministers and which my officials have with other Departments. The profiles only become of real use from March, April or May onwards because at that point we are able to see if Government spending is in line with the projections shared with us by Departments. The majority of Departments tend to be in line with where we expect spending to be in our budget Estimates. A number of Departments are in a different place this year. Some of that can be attributed to factors that are difficult for them to manage, such as the impact of migration on the budget of the Department of children and integration. The key concern I continue to have is spending in our health services. Today we made a further attempt to put that on a more stable and firm footing.

This country depends to a very considerable extent on corporation tax, which has been referred to many times in the House over the years. Given that some multinational corporations have slowed down in terms of profits, has that been included in the continuous evaluation that goes on? Deputies on the other side of the House want a wealth tax but I do not think that would do anything other than scare companies that may already be suffering an internal or marketing problem. To what extent is the Minister building that into the calculations that have to evolve as time goes by?

Very useful work has been carried out under the minor flood mitigation works scheme, which deals particularly with localised flooding. It is small-scale funding provided at national level and has made a difference to householders and local communities. However, the criteria are restrictive and I hope the Minister would be in a position to have the criteria and conditions pertaining to the scheme loosened or improved. It could make a huge difference to many householders, particularly in rural communities where there is not sufficient weighting in favour of dispersed populations and roads with relatively low volumes of traffic.

The minor flood mitigation works and coastal protection scheme was introduced by the OPW on an administrative, non-statutory basis in 2009. The purpose of this demand-driven scheme is to provide funding to local authorities to undertake minor flood mitigation works or studies to address localised fluvial flooding and coastal protection problems within their administrative areas. Since 2009, the OPW has approved €66 million across some 900 unique local flood relief projects that protect some 7,900 properties through this scheme.

Applications for funding from local authorities are considered for flood relief and erosion-protection measures costing up to €750,000 in each instance. Funding of up to 90% of the cost is available for approved projects. Applications are assessed by the OPW having regard to the specific economic, social and environmental criteria of the scheme, including a cost-benefit ratio, and to the availability of funding for flood risk management. Full details of this scheme are available on the OPW’s flood information website, www.floodinfo.ie.

A review of the scheme to ensure that it continues to support the local authorities in their work to address localised fluvial flooding and coastal protection issues is under way and will be finalised shortly. The OPW welcomes applications for funding under this scheme and is happy to engage with local authorities in this regard. Funding approved under this scheme to local authorities in the years requested is as follows.

In 2022, funding of €2.9 million was approved for 26 projects, in 2023, funding of €3.3 million was provided for 24 projects and up to 4 July this year, funding of €1.8 million has been provided for 13 projects. To go back to the review and the core point the Deputy makes, a review of the administrative arrangements for the scheme was completed in June 2017. A further review of the scheme to ensure that it can continue to support the local authorities in their work to address localised fluvial flooding and coastal protection issues has been under way and will be finalised shortly. I am looking at this at the moment and at the work my officials have done and am giving consideration to updating the scheme.

I thank the Minister of State for his answer and I sincerely hope the review can be completed shortly. Obviously, when the Department is disbursing public money, there has to be a cost-benefit ratio but one thing that concerns me is that in assessing the merit of flood relief schemes, not enough consideration is given to sparsely populated areas and to roads and arterial routes that may have relatively low levels of traffic. We may have a local road but that is the motorway for the local community. I know criteria must be laid down in regard to public expenditure and we all understand that. However, one criterion of this scheme is that there has been flooding over a considerable period of time. I know from talking to engineers, farmers and people living in the countryside that a flood that rises quickly can be very dangerous. That same flood may also decrease or go down very quickly but that type of flooding does not meet the criteria of the Department's scheme at present. I am familiar with certain rural roads, as are all of us who are out late at night, coming and going to meetings and so on, where at times after heavy rainfall, with water coming down from mountains or high hills, there is flash flooding and very dangerous conditions. Unfortunately, there have been fatalities over the years and serious accidents. I appeal to the Minister of State to ask his officials to amend that particular part of the criteria. I also ask him to take into account roads that have lesser volumes of traffic.

I will make a quick intervention in support of my colleague, Deputy Smith. It is important to recognise that strategic flood alleviation has to be undertaken on an ongoing basis. The emphasis has been on flood plains and so forth but the whole country should not have to become a flood plain. When roads become flooded, they disintegrate. Their foundations become soft and they cannot carry traffic without potholing. In County Roscommon, in the Cathaoirleach Gníomhach's own constituency, flooding has threatened people's livelihoods and homes and it continues, to the best of my knowledge.. It is something that should be dealt with radically, quickly and directly, without having to wait until it gets worse. The same goes for the coastal erosion along the east coast, which I am more familiar with than along some of the other coasts.

I take on board the points made by Deputy Smith and in my consideration of the review of the scheme, I will take those factors into account. I note the points he makes and I also note the points made by Deputy Durkan. In terms of the review of the scheme, I will take everything in the round. My officials are the professionals in the area but I am a practising politician like the Deputies and I always build into what is happening on the ground.

It might interest Deputy Smith to note in relation to applications from Cavan and Monaghan that since 2009, the OPW has approved funding under the minor flood mitigation works and coastal protection scheme of €463,302 for ten projects in County Cavan and approximately €2.5 million for 27 projects in County Monaghan. Interestingly, there have been no applications under the scheme from the local authorities in Cavan or Monaghan since 2022. I do not have any information to hand in respect of Kildare.

I thank the Minister of State. I ask that council officials would engage with officials from the OPW to see if it is worthwhile submitting an application for the projects they had in mind. The restrictive nature of the scheme is preventing applications from being submitted. I am sure every one of us can identify projects that we think would be suitable.

In considering how to deal with flood relief, officials at local and national level should always talk to local communities. The best informed people in regard to dealing with flooding issues are the farming community in particular. They have seen and experienced over the years what causes flooding. If I travel through west Cavan, on roads in Glangevlin, Dowra, Blacklion, under the Cuilcagh mountain range and along the Border, I can be certain that on a bad night I will run into a flood. I have to divert and take a different route from a safety point of view but the local community are being hit with that on a constant basis.

I will expand the question, if I may. I have also tabled a question related to the Arterial Drainage Act 1945 and implore the Minister of State to ensure that the OPW has ongoing and more detailed contact with its counterparts in the Department for Infrastructure in Northern Ireland, the former Rivers Agency. A lot of the flooding in my area is common to both Fermanagh and Cavan. When the Erne catchment area water levels rise, we are all in trouble. We need a greater intensification of co-operation on a cross-Border and all-Ireland basis in regard to flooding problems.

On the point about local communities, I come from a constituency which has lived with flooding for many years. The local community, including local farmers, have a knowledge base that is really invaluable. I know from dealing with the local authority in Limerick that it very much values the input of the local community.

On cross-Border co-operation, that continues but if the Deputy wishes to raise flooding issues specific to the Border area that he represents, I ask him to make direct contact with me and the OPW and we will follow up on it.

We are staying with the issue of flood defences but this time in Galway city. I am following up on a series of questions I posed previously. I ask for an update on the Coirib go Cósta project. In particular, I ask for dates because the original plan has changed and the project has moved out into the future. If the Minister of State could be specific, I would appreciate it.

Obviously, I will deal with that. It is something that I will address for the Deputy. There have been three programmes for this scheme, namely, a baseline programme, an updated programme and now, a revised programme. Upon the appointment of consulting engineers in November 2020, an updated programme identified the need for coastal assessment, including on the extent of wave overtopping and so the agreed baseline programme was extended until the study assessments were completed. In terms of the revised programme, a research programme by Arup takes accounts of works on the hydrology-----

Yes. I am reading the reply. I was called for No. 43 and am reading the reply. Sorry, I am not actually reading the reply because Deputy Connolly has brought this up on many occasions and I have dealt with it on many occasions. I want to deal with the particular matter she has raised. If I read the transcript as provided, it will not address the Deputy's concerns.

The recently submitted programme by Arup takes into account its work on hydrology and hydraulics from the coastal assessment and the scale of the flooding and, hence, is much larger than CFRAM has envisaged.

As regards the increased work involved, Galway City Council engaged with its constituents to reprogramme the scheme. This has been agreed in principle by the steering group, and the revised dates are as follows. For submission of planning, the baseline was September 2023, the updated programme was July 2025, and now the revised programme is July 2027, subject to the update on the revised programme being agreed by the steering group. It is back with the steering group at the moment. For the construction, the baseline was October 2025, the updated programme was June 2026 and the revised programme is now November 2028, subject to the update on the revised programme being agreed by the steering group. For substantial completion, the baseline programme was December 2027, the updated programme was December 2029 and the revised programme is March 2031, subject to the update on the revised programme being agreed by the steering group. I refer to the locations of sensitive areas adjacent to and in need of defences and agreement throughout the project development.

As regards the new programme, the consultants are in the process of updating the scheme's programme, which is planned to be considered and approved by the project steering group at its next meeting, scheduled for tomorrow, 10 July. I am aware that Deputy Connolly met with Galway City Council. Was it on 10 May?

She probably has a good update then. When approved, the steering group will publish the updated steering programme to the project website shortly thereafter. It may be worth noting that The Connacht Tribune in early March 2024 published an article stating that the planning for this scheme was now delayed to 2027. Given that the preferred option for the scheme is not yet confirmed, the programme of the timeline associated with planning approved and construction is difficult to define at this juncture. This will be subject to ongoing review throughout the development of the scheme, the planning consent process, details on construction and the tendering stage. The Deputy met with Galway City Council on Friday, 10 May. In the OPW, we understand the complexity and the main challenges associated with the scheme.

I thank the Minister of State for taking a hands-on approach. I did meet with the engineers in relation to outlining this. My difficulty, however, as the Minister of State knows, is the huge delay. Repeatedly in the replies it states that originally it was meant for 312 properties and then it became 940, but it actually became 940 in a reply I got in September 2021. Therefore, nearly three years ago they were aware that it was 941. This has huge implications for Galway. We want the people to be with us. I live in the Claddagh area, where a wall is going to go up. I am very familiar with the whole area. We need public engagement. There has only been one because it keeps being revised. After the steering group tomorrow, will we have the details set out on a website as to what is proposed at this point? The money has gone up to €50 million. I do not think it will be done for €50 million but I am no expert. What is the situation in that regard? I refer to the money, the engagement with the public and the programme of work set out.

The consultants are in the process of updating the scheme's programme, which is planned to be considered and approved, as I said, by the project steering group at its next meeting, tomorrow, 10 July. When approved, the steering group will publish the updated scheme programme to the project's website thereafter. I understand that this has been a long process; however, due to the increased scoping, such a process was necessary. The Deputy is very familiar with the process so I do not need to go back over it and the reasons.

The Deputy is correct about the budget. The original estimate was a budget of €9.5 million. Given that the scale of the project and the required defences are far greater and protect over three times as many properties, the best estimate for this scheme at the time is most likely in the region of €50 million, the most recent estimate provided by Galway City Council. The Government is committed to design and completion of the flood relief scheme for Galway city and has committed to funding the scheme once a viable scheme is identified through the national development plan, which has allocated €1.3 million.

May I make an observation? I understand that this is currently at stage 1, development and preliminary design. We have reached a point where a very important meeting will take place tomorrow, so this is moving forward. It not at the speed one would like; however, various iterations arose for genuine reasons. Ultimately, whatever scheme is built must be fit for purpose, which I believe it will be. The Deputy has asked three questions. I have already told her the date of the next meeting to approve the scheme's programme. When will it be published? The updated scheme programme will be published to the project's website thereafter. I hope that will happen as quickly as possible. Finally, the Deputy made reference to the budget, but the main thing is that the project is very much now moving forward.

I thank the Minister of State for his letter to me and all that. I have to put on the record, however, that CFRAM goes back over a decade. I was there as a city councillor when that wonderful work was carried out. It was crystal clear to us, however, and we had no expertise, that they were working on the basis of events happening once every hundred years. We have been flooded nearly every year now for a very long time, so the whole concept was wrong to start with. Then we go forward and I think there was, if not an argument over fees, quite a delay over them. I can understand that because the consultants were employed to do one type of work and then suddenly there was a much bigger scope, but the council has been fully aware of that since 2021. It is now 2024. The steering group is meeting tomorrow. Will there be publication in the next week or two of the programme of works with dates and an emphasis on public consultation? Has the situation with regard to fees been sorted out?

I will take the matters in reverse order. The council recently submitted a request for additional funding to the OPW for an increase in consultancy fees to facilitate the revised scope, and these have been approved by the OPW. As I said, the consultants are in the process of updating the scheme's programme, which will be considered by the project steering group tomorrow, 10 July. I do not have a precise date for the Deputy but I expect it will be published as soon as possible. It is something I can come back to her on. If she would like to write to me, I can come back to her formally to try to get a date as fast as possible.

In summary, the one thing I have learned since coming into the Department is that while there is this continual frustration with the speed of the roll-out of flood relief programmes, you must stick with the process. If you do not, many schemes can come unstuck. That is something that in my role as Minister I am very conscious of. If you work with the process, it may take a small bit more time but it ensures that the scheme has the best possibility of moving as quickly as possible and being the most appropriate for the circumstances.

I ask the Minister what progress has been made with respect to flood defences in east Cork. It is almost nine months now since we saw the utterly devastating impact Storm Babet had on Midleton and the surrounding area. People and businesses are still reeling after it. The Minister of State visited east Cork recently. I thank him for that and for the personal interest he has shown, but what the people I represent want to know now is what is next. When will we see the planning permission lodged and when will we see progress?

I propose to take Questions Nos. 44 and 59 together.

I know of Deputy Stanton's absolute commitment to this issue and his long-standing representation in Midleton. I was down there in my role as Minister of State with responsibility for local government and, more recently, in my role as Minister of State with responsibility for the OPW. I visited Midleton and I am aware of the devastation that flooding has caused to people and businesses in east Cork.

Cork County Council is leading the delivery of the Midleton flood relief scheme and in 2017 appointed engineering and environmental consultants. Midleton has proven to be one of the most complex schemes, with flood risks from four sources: fluvial, tidal, groundwater and pluvial. In fact, it is very unusual to have all aspects in a flood relief scheme. The preferred option is now identified and, following Storm Babet, an assessment is being completed in order that we can be confident that we have designed a scheme that can meet the standard of protection required by the insurance industry.

The next step is to seek planning consent and work is ongoing on the development of the planning design for the scheme.

Interim flood defence measures are under way in a phased manner and, in compliance with the regulatory frameworks, Cork County Council recently submitted an application for funding to the OPW to support the phased roll-out of individual property protection for those properties in Midleton impacted by flooding during Storm Babet. This application is currently under active review by the OPW. An assessment of potential advance works for Midleton is also progressing. This may allow the delivery of certain elements of the main scheme in specific areas in advance of the delivery of the whole scheme, subject to consideration of the flood risk they may cause elsewhere.

As the Deputy will be well aware, when I was in Midleton, we went through the process. In addition to the protection measures under the overall main scheme and the interim measures, I was adamant that we look at undertaking advance works ahead of the main scheme that could have a major impact in a shorter time period than the substantive main scheme and that would complement and assist that scheme.

While the OPW has trebled the number of flood relief schemes at design and construction stages, due to the specialised engineering resource required and skills constraints, it is not possible to commence all flood relief schemes at this time. This includes schemes in east Cork for Castlemartyr, Rathcormac and Youghal. Pending the completion of these schemes, for which funding is committed through the €1.3 billion for flood relief measures under the national development plan, Cork County Council can apply to OPW for additional mitigation measures under the minor flood mitigation works and coastal protection scheme. This is a demand-driven scheme and, while funding under this scheme has already been approved for the council in respect of mitigation measures for east Cork communities since its introduction in 2009, further applications for Castlemartyr and Killeagh have been received post Storm Babet and these are under active review against the scheme’s criteria. These reviews are nearing completion with decisions on funding to issue to the council shortly. The OPW understands that the council has assessed a number of possible interim flood relief measures at Mogeely and will appoint consultant engineers in the coming weeks to complete a detailed assessment that includes the impact on surrounding lands.

Along with the Deputy and officials from Cork County Council and the OPW, I visited all of the various locations in Midleton. We visited Castlemartyr, Mogeely and Killeagh. I have seen all of these areas on the ground. In many cases, matters are complicated. Some of these issues can be dealt with under the minor works scheme. We obviously need a major scheme for Midleton, which will extend out. However, we need advance schemes and interim schemes as well.

I do not know if I have time to answer the Deputy's other question. Perhaps I will come back to it. I wanted to deal with the timing aspect but I will allow him to come back in and then deal with that question in my response.

I thank the Minister of State for his commitment to this and for visiting the area on more than one occasion and for spending quite a bit of time there. I am sure he will join me in my frustration at the lack of progress. It is not his fault at all. With respect to Mogeely, the council is going to appoint a number of consulting engineers in the coming weeks. It has been almost nine months since we had the flood. Will the Minister of State be a bit more specific as to when this is going to happen? Are we talking about months more? I have records of floods in Midleton going back to 1993. Floods occurred in 1993, 1995, 2000, 2004, 2005, 2012 and 2013. There were major floods in 2015 and 2016 and another following Storm Babet in 2023. According to the Minister of State's response, Cork County Council and the OPW appointed engineers and environmental consultants in 2017. That is seven years ago and we still do not know when an application for planning permission is going to be lodged. When does he expect an application for the major scheme in Midleton to be lodged? Is there any way that we can do something for Mogeely, Castlemartyr, Rathcormac and Killeagh in the meantime? Given the very substantial time that has passed, are we now talking about senior officials being sacked or moved on because they are not doing their jobs? That is where I am at this stage.

I thank the Deputy. I appreciate his utter frustration. In my role as Minister of State with responsibility for the OPW, my main purpose in visiting Midleton recently was to get a full picture as to where the schemes were at. The OPW is actively engaging with Cork County Council on progressing the substantive main scheme. The only timeframe that is within the control of the council is the timeframe for submitting a planning application for the most efficient route to deliver the scheme as quickly as possible. Once that is submitted, it has no control over timelines. We are looking at an application for planning consent to be lodged by mid-2026. That is why I am so adamant about the advance works. We are looking at that permission being granted by mid-2027. Provided there are no judicial challenges, the scheme is expected to be completed in 2030.

I will break it down. The Deputy made reference to Mogeely. When I was there, I wanted additional interim protection measures to the back of the estate. I wanted consulting engineers to be appointed to do that critical work. I looked for that on the day. We also met residents in Castlemartyr. I want to see works being done there under the minor works scheme. We also looked at Killeagh. When in Midleton, we met the consultants who had been appointed to the main scheme. I want to see advance works done because, at the end of the day, many of those advance works will make an enormous difference in protecting homes, businesses and farms and they can be done much more quickly than the main scheme. They will effectively be a forward element of that main scheme. That is something I am adamant about progressing.

I thank the Minister of State for his personal commitment to this. If the tide was in and if it had happened at night, we would have been hauling coffins down the road a few days later. People would have drowned in Midleton because it was that serious, it happened that fast and the water was that deep. It made headlines all over the world because it was so devastating. The Minister of State told me that consultants were appointed to start on planning and design in 2017. He has now told me that a planning application might be lodged in mid-2026.

That is nine years later. Why does it take so long to deal with so important and devastating an issue in this country? It will have taken nine years for people to get their act together and put a plan in place. The planning application has to be lodged but we do not know how long it will take for a decision on that application to be finalised. There may also be objections. The Government really needs to get its act together on this because we are talking about life and death. Devastation occurred, homes were destroyed and businesses were wrecked and it is going to happen again and again. We are talking about a rise in the sea level as well. I do not want to see my area and my town devastated. If it happens again, homes and businesses will be abandoned. People will not go back. When people hear it raining at night, they stay awake. We really need action on this. People across the board really need to get their finger out. The Minister of State is doing his best and I support him 100% in what he is doing but people really need to move on this. It has been going on for too long and it is very important.

Has it taken longer than one would have liked? Yes. I have been in this role for a short period. Storm Babet was certainly a factor. Anything being put forward had to be proofed against such a storm. Once again, I will note that the main scheme will take a number of years to complete. We therefore must look at what must be done now to protect people's homes in Midleton, Castlemartyr, Mogeely and Killeagh. That might be interim measures, individual protection measures, action under the minor works scheme or advance works. When I was with the Deputy and we met with the officials and consultants from Cork County Council and our own OPW officials, the one thing I demanded was that traction be gained on advance works. I have seen the devastation in Midleton and have met people there. Nothing can be compared to people having their homes flooded. It is the worst experience bar none. I am committed to working collaboratively with the Deputy, with our own people in the OPW and with Cork County Council to expedite all of these measures as quickly as possible. From our more recent visit, I believe there is enhanced urgency in what is happening.

I want to give the Minister of State an opportunity to update the House on the status of the restoration of Barryscourt Castle in Carrigtwohill, one of the finest examples of a castle in the country.

Much good work has been done there. The Minister of State has been there recently, visiting the castle. He has seen for himself what went on. I believe he climbed up onto the ramparts as well. Will he update me on what is happening and when it might reopen?

I thank Deputy Stanton again. I was in Barryscourt Castle on a fine summer's day. I commend the OPW staff on the fantastic work and their utter commitment to it. Many of them are from the area. I was really impressed by the work. As Deputy Stanton is aware, the initial phase of the projects, which have been ongoing for some time, involves progressively drying the entire castle structure, repointing, regrouting and carrying out additional fabric repairs to prevent future water ingress. This work has proven to be technically challenging and has taken longer than was originally expected due to the discovery of additional works to the chimneys and roofs which needed to be undertaken. I was taken on a tour of the castle with Deputy Stanton and others. I am happy to report that the grouting work to the external walls is now complete. There will still be works to masonry at a high level to the tower and wall works but it is thought that these works will not interfere with progressing works internally. We are now at the snagging stage of the exterior. The OPW is working closely with expert ecologists who have highlighted some specific issues regarding specific works which would impact bat maternity roosts in the castle. The OPW is mindful of ensuring all works are carried out to the highest standard without causing undue disturbance to maternity roosts.

I am disappointed the project is taking longer than first advised. However, every effort is being made to expedite the remaining works. I assure the Deputy of OPW's commitment to the castle. Regrettably, it is not possible to give a definitive date at this time but the OPW is working towards having the site opened next year.

I will make a comment. I was absolutely impressed by the OPW staff and the sheer skill level of the masons. They have many apprentices and it really struck home to me that they were from the area and they had pride in their work. Everyone has that pride. I was particularly impressed. Obviously, a lot of the work has to be subcontracted. I like the fact that it was done in house by the OPW. I recognise the staff, their training and everything else.

I join the Minister of State in acknowledging the fantastic abilities and hard work of the OPW staff and the skill levels they have put in here. It is an amazing project and it will be of huge benefit to the local area. Will the Minister of State outline his vision for the castle in the context of the greater east Cork area and nationally given its importance, the plans for the curtilage of the castle, the land around it and the other buildings there, and how it can be used in the whole tourism and archaeology offering of the region?

The context here is that it is an Anglo-Norman castle, the seat of the Barry family, and one of the finest restored Irish tower houses. It dates back to 1392 and 1420. The castle has an outer bawn wall and largely intact corner towers. The ground floor contains a dungeon in which prisoners were dropped via the drop hole located on the second floor. I did not actually go near that point. I did not tempt fate. It was purchased by a private trust set up in 1987 by concerned locals, including Peter Barry, who was a former Government Minister and would have been a colleague of Deputy Durkan. By the mid-1980s it was realised that State assistance was needed to properly complete conservation and it was agreed the State would take the castle into its ownership. The OPW and national monuments service will complete the works and undertake it on behalf of the public. The Barryscourt Trust still has an interest in the site in the form of an adjacent cottage. Formerly, this building acted as a combined coffee shop and living quarters for the general operatives. The building is fundamentally sound. It is in a beautiful setting. Certainly, when it is fully renovated, it will be a major tourist attraction. There is work. The site is located on the Wild Atlantic Way branding area and the OPW hopes to work with Fáilte Ireland on the strategic path to unlock the tourism visitor potential of the site, once all works have been completed.

I thank the Minister of State for his response. It is one of the finest castles and tower houses of its type in the country. It is also part of a wider plan for Carrigtwohill and east Cork, the Carrigtwohill 2040 project, and that will require further resources later on with respect to the purchase of land, possibly locally, for the parking of buses and that kind of thing. Is the Minister of State aware of this vision, plan and proposal? Is he prepared to support it in the medium and long term?

I am aware from meeting people locally of this particular plan for in Carrigtwohill. I had a relatively short visit there but we and the OPW would always be looking at particular historical sites and the comparative advantage in terms of the area around it. That is something we are open to in terms of the OPW considering any proposal. In most cases when we are looking at them, they are unconditional but it is something we will certainly look at.

Many areas of important public services such as mental health, disability, special needs, the health service and schools have chronic problems in recruiting and retaining enough people. We have staff shortages and this leads to a lot of hardship for many people who need those public services. Has the Minister any plans, especially in the context of the upcoming budget, to address this problem?

I propose to take Questions Nos. 46 and 67 together.

I thank the Deputy. The main way we have of addressing the challenges to which he referred is through the pay agreements that are in place up to 2026, aiming to bring forward wage increases of more than 10% over a two-and-a-half year period. That will be accompanied by the continued investment the Government will put in place in building new homes, in making sure those who are working in our country, particularly working within our public services, have a better hope in the future of being able to buy and afford a home, so it is better wages and building more homes.

In my opinion that is not enough. It is not working. The child and disability network teams are chronically understaffed. They cannot recruit and retain people. CAMHS teams have half the staff they need. We had school principals in the Houses last week saying they and teachers are burnt out and stressed and they cannot recruit people. They are actually relying on people who are unqualified in teaching because they cannot actually get teachers. It is a similar picture in the health service.

The consequences of course are dire for service users. There are long waiting lists. I brought up a case today with the Taoiseach of a woman whose five-year-old was diagnosed in 2023 with an intellectual disability and autism. She got an appointment for speech and language therapy in July 2024. However, she then received a letter saying she is not getting it until January 2026. This is because of staff shortages. We need to do more.

Of course I accept and am aware that we have many cases across our public services of patients who are being let down and of constituents who are not receiving the attention and care we believe they should. However, the analysis the Deputy put forward, that this is due to our inability to recruit and keep staff, is completely at odds with the reality of what has happened in the growth of our public services. In 2015, we had 301,589 whole-time equivalents working within our public service. By the end of last year, that figure had risen to 397,000. Therefore we have around 95,000 more people working in our public services. That is not a public service that is struggling to recruit or retain people. There is a bigger and growing public service. By the end of this year there will be more than 407,000 people working in the public service in Ireland. I am not for a moment diminishing the individual and important cases the Deputy is raising of those who are not getting the public services they want.

There are more people than ever working in our public services.

-----because of the damage it did after the economic crash. However, in key areas I have mentioned - CAMHS, CDNTs, teachers, nurses, allied health professionals - we have a serious problem. This is causing immense hardship for the service users. There are long waiting lists and double whammies for people with special needs and disability. The kids and parents get hit in education, and then in the services supposed to be provided by the HSE. That is compounded by things we will be dealing with in the next question about section 39 workers not getting the same pay and conditions as other workers, which is absolutely crazy. The housing crisis is hitting them and is a major reason they cannot people they need, and lots of young people qualified in these areas are leaving the country. We have to do more. There is no point in saying it is all hunky-dory because it is far from it.

I never said that. I acknowledged, stood up and said the Deputy was raising real issues but he should not put words in my mouth or suggest for a moment that I am not taking seriously the issues he is raising. What I am simply saying is that creating the image that our public services overall cannot get and keep people is wrong. It is wrong to say that.

The wages we are now offering in the public service are a combination of the increases we have been able to provide, and public service agreements, one after the other. Every single one of them, I think, the Deputy opposed.

He has always said they are not enough. We are now paying our public servants, across many parts of our public services, wages that are easily comparable with what is available in other parts of Europe, and in many cases ahead. I want to make that case regarding the scale of and funding for our public services.

Has the Minister had any discussions with the Minister, Ministers of State or senior management at the Department of Health or the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth with regard to addressing the existing pay disparity that exists between workers in section 39 organisations and workers employed directly by the HSE or section 38 organisations? If so, what plans are being put in place to address the issue and has the Minister a timeframe for doing so?

I propose to take Questions Nos. 47, 65 and 68 together.

The employees of agencies funded under section 38 of the Health Act 2004 are classified as public servants. They are subject to the standard salary scales for the health sector as well as having access, in the main, to a public service pension scheme. The employees are included in public service employment numbers.

Accordingly, staff employed by section 38 organisations benefit from the terms of public service agreements negotiated between the Government as an employer and trade unions and associations representing public servants. The current collective agreement, the public service agreement up to 2026, was reached earlier this year and provides pay adjustments of 9.25% over two and half years.

Section 39 organisations form part of the broader community and voluntary sector. They are grant-funded in line with section 39 of the Health Act 2004. It is the position that these organisations are not public bodies; rather, they are private and independently-run entities. The employees of these organisations are not public servants. As such, their terms and conditions of employment are a matter between each organisation and its employees.

I understand there is a process of engagement under way at the Workplace Relations Commission with the participation of the Department of Children, Equality, Disability, Integration and Youth. I know this process is taking place. My Department has been involved in it, and I hope this is a process that can deliver an outcome that will be satisfactory to all parties involved in it.

Last October, unions representing section 39 organisations and other sections reached an agreement for addressing pay disparity between section 39 organisations, the HSE and section 38 organisations. A proposal was agreed acknowledging that the workers in these organisations deserve pay equality. That pay agreement has not been honoured. Some of the workers have only received up to 65% of the pay deal. A subsequent public sector pay deal has been implemented, meaning that public sector workers have received another increase from January, which means the pay disparity between the two types of organisation has widened again. It is as much as €4 to €5 per hour at the very basic level, up to the guts of €20 per hour at the higher level.

To give an example, the Irish Wheelchair Association in Cavan has had to reduce its service to a Covid-like service because it cannot employ people. It employs people and trains them and loses them after six months to the HSE or a section 38 organisation because they are getting paid much better and have much better conditions for doing exactly the same work. The Minister might say these are community and voluntary organisations but they are doing the work on behalf of the Government and the HSE. If these organisations did not exist, the HSE would have to do this work and it would be out a lot more money.

Just to underline the point, in my area, a lot of mental health services are delivered by section 39 organisations. In others, they might be delivered by the HSE. We discussed earlier the difficulty of recruiting people to CAMHS teams and the CDNTs. One of the additional problems compounding that difficulty is that those section 39 workers are on lesser pay and conditions than they would be if they were doing exactly the same job in a different area working directly for the HSE. That is crazy. They are doing the same job, they have the same qualifications, they are providing the same services and meeting the same need but they are on different - worse - pay and conditions. It does not take a rocket scientist to work out how it is going to be harder to recruit people to work in those services than in areas where they have better pay and conditions. There should be complete alignment when people are delivering public services, regardless of who the service provider is.

I was involved in this issue when it was dealt with in the Workplace Relations Commission last October. I was involved in the agreement that was reached to provide three different instalments to get up to 8%, with the final one due on 1 March 2024. My understanding is that all the staff employed in relevant organisations should have received their pay increases. That is my understanding. On foot of this matter being raised with me this evening, I will raise it with the Ministers, Deputies O'Gorman and Donnelly, and other Ministers who are involved in it.

I know that additional funding has been provided to allow for further grants to be provided to these organisations and I believed that had enabled increases to take place. That was my understanding. I am not the line Minister with responsibility for these areas but I will certainly follow up on this matter now with the Ministers involved in it after the points Deputies Tully and Boyd Barrett have made to me this evening.