Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 4 Jul 2024

No offence to the Minister of State, Deputy Smyth, but I understood that Topical Issues were supposed to be taken by the relevant Minister. As far as I understand it, he is a Minister of State at the Department of public expenditure, and this is the responsibility of the Department of Rural and Community Development. It is disappointing but I know that is the way Topical Issues have developed over the last-----

Not yet, no. I will wait until I go over that side, and then we will do it.

As the Minister of State knows, FASD - and he might not know of it but I will talk to it anyway - is foetal alcohol spectrum disorder. It is an underrecognised condition in Ireland. Compared to other jurisdictions like Canada and New Zealand, we are way behind in dealing with it and providing funding and support for sufferers and their families. There are estimates that between 4.75% and 7.2% of the population in Ireland is living with FASD. The problem is, bizarrely, that we do not know for sure because there have been no studies or research carried out here. That is the crux of the issue of why we are here.

While there are no statistics in Ireland, the agencies are working with FASD and recognising FASD as a problem that needs to be addressed. I know from talking to FASD Ireland that in some areas, staff trying to deal with very difficult children are asking them to help but the State organisations themselves are not recognising FASD. This is leading to children being left behind; children who could have more productive lives if the State was able to assist them properly. Schoolgoing children may have learning difficulties because they can find it difficult to plan, organise themselves or understand the consequences of their actions. They will have challenges such as inattention, hyperactivity, anxiety and frustration.

An individual with FASD who does not have the correct support in place can experience many challenges throughout his or her life as well. These generally develop during adolescence but can develop earlier. Such people can experience difficulties with peers, inappropriate sexual behaviour, involvement in crime, poor mental health, alcohol and drug misuse and challenges with independent living. Individuals with FASD are 19 times more likely to encounter the judicial system than a neurotypical person. That is according to a doctor and researcher at the University of Salford in the UK, Dr. David Gilbert.

I have seen some estimates that up to 30% of individuals who are in prison are sufferers of FASD. In Ireland, it is considered that this could be an even higher percentage but the reality is we do not know because we have not researched it. Recognising the condition and treating it could save the State huge amounts of funding for vital and scarce public services, so even from a bean counter's point of view it would make sense. Likewise, we do not know the prevalence throughout all our systems of health and education because we have not recognised the existence of FASD.

FASD sufferers have comorbidities that are more recognised, and the treatments for those comorbidities can be counterproductive with FASD sufferers as well. A treatment that works for ADHD, for example, could have an opposite effect on an FASD sufferer, and not being recognised, they may fall through the cracks with regard to getting adequate treatment. It could be looked at that they are not responsive but if FASD was treated rather than the comorbidity, that could have a significant alternate effect and mean a better quality of life for the patient.

I know that there has been an allocation to FASD Ireland in the Department of Health budget for this year but that has not made its way to FASD Ireland yet and we are almost two thirds of the way through the year at this stage. That is worrying because in order to plan for next year, studies have to be started and that needs to happen quickly. As the Minister of State knows, it is about providing the evidence base so we could have a funding allocation that would allow support to be put in place. Rightly, Government money cannot be spent on something that perhaps cannot be proven to work. I believe that it will be proved necessary and if the sufferers and their families are supported, the future will look better for everybody.

I thank Deputy Pringle for raising this issue. My colleague, the Minister of State with responsibility for disabilities, Deputy Anne Rabbitte, remains committed to the continued development and enhancement of our disability services through the implementation of both the HSE’s progressing disability services, PDS, roadmap for service improvement from 2023 to 2026 and the Department’s action plan for disability services from 2024 to 2026.

As the Deputy will be aware, foetal alcohol spectrum disorder is a prevalent yet preventable neurodevelopmental condition. It is a group of disorders caused by prenatal alcohol exposure and it is associated with a range of lifelong physical, mental, educational, social, and behavioural difficulties. FASD is caused by the consumption of alcohol at any time from six weeks before conception, by either parent, until the baby is born. Many people do not know or recognise that they are living with FASD.

The most recent available figures from the HSE estimate the prevalence of FASD in Ireland is between 2.8% and 7.4% of the population. An estimated 600 Irish babies are born each year with foetal alcohol syndrome, with a further nine to ten times this number of babies born annually in Ireland who have other foetal alcohol spectrum disorders, FASDs. Only a small proportion of children with FASD have visible facial features, or facial dysmorphia. The majority of children with FASD have no visible signs of disability at birth, and difficulties may not manifest until preschool or school age. Currently, there are no standard diagnostic policies or guidelines for diagnosing or treating children with FASD in Ireland.

FASD Ireland was established in September 2021 with three core aims: to raise awareness of FASD, to reduce the prevalence of FASD, and to support people living with FASD. The Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, was pleased to endorse the launch of the FASD Hub Ireland in March 2023. This important support service provides a national telephone helpline operating Monday to Friday evening between 10 a.m. and 4 p.m. for anyone who lives with FASD, anyone who cares for someone living with FASD, and anyone who works with someone living with the condition

The HSE has recommended that a number of actions are implemented to prevent FASD. Many of these actions are currently being progressed, and some new actions are proposed that will require resourcing, such as the development of a national strategy on FASD prevention and response in Ireland. The Minister of State was pleased to secure ring-fenced funding of €3 million in budget 2024 for targeted services for children, which will allow a number of projects to be progressed in line with the HSE approval process. The HSE has confirmed that €200,000 is being made available to the HSE’s regional executive officer, REO, in the mid-west, in order for FASD Ireland to support an action in the HSE 2024 service plan to deliver a foetal alcohol project using a multicare health sector approach, that is, primary care, mental health services and so on.

The Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, has met FASD Ireland and can confirm that the regional executive officer will make arrangements for a grant agreement with the organisation. I wish to assure the House that both the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, and officials in her Department are committed to working with colleagues in the Department of Health, alongside other stakeholders, to ensure that the issue of foetal alcohol spectrum disorder is considered a priority and to see that services are delivered in an appropriate manner.

I thank the Minister of State. The Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, has outlined in her response that funding has been allocated, that the FASD Hub Ireland was established in March 2023, and it operates from Monday to Friday between 10 a.m. and 4 p.m. for anyone who lives with FASD. That is welcome but there is no funding provided for that.

The funding has not actually reached FASD Ireland yet to pay for that. It is operating the service but it is doing so with a loan from the bank because it is waiting for funding to come forward from the Government. It will be July or August at the earliest before funding makes its way to it. That is slack. It will not lead to putting the treatment on a good footing. Part of that funding has to provide for studies to be carried out but they will not be carried out in time for next year's application, so that time will be lost too. During this time, children will be lost. Children and families are living with this condition and cannot deal with it. They will lose out. We need to get moving on it quickly. I would like Deputy Smyth to pass that on to the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, so she is aware of it and makes sure that funding gets there in a timely fashion.

I will pass the Deputy's comments on to the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte. She in turn will continue with the Department and the HSE to advance progress on the provision of services for those living with foetal alcohol spectrum disorder and their families. To this end, I am happy to report that a cross-departmental working group will be established to develop a long-term and sustainable plan that will provide access to appropriate services for those living with FASD and their families. The Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, wishes to reiterate her full commitment and that of her Department and the HSE to ensuring that the issue of FASD receives the attention that it deserves and that we endeavour as a Government to provide the level of services required by those living with FASD.

The first comment I have to make is that I found out there is more than one CDNT 4 in the country. It is a funny way of naming things. The one I am talking about is in Connemara and covers all of Connemara. It is based in Spiddal and Connemara is as big as most counties on its own. It is a huge geographic area, particularly when you have to drive around the inlets, bays, mountains and hills.

We all know that early intervention is really beneficial for young people and children. The earlier the intervention and the more thorough it is, the better. Giving excuses about why it is not happening is not any good for those children for the rest of their lives. We are talking about affecting people's future permanently. In the long term, it is also imposing a significant cost on the State, with more intervention being needed. As they say, a stitch in time saves nine.

I am not going to mention who is involved in the case. It is the case of a young person. I raised the issues of physiotherapy, occupational therapy and speech therapy. I understand there is a physiotherapy appointment about every three to four months. I love the terminology in what I am told, which is that the child is wait-listed for individualised team intervention from speech and language therapy and occupational therapy, but unfortunately, CDNT 4 is not in a position to identify timeframes for children to be taken off the waiting lists. This child went on the waiting list in October 2021. It goes on to say that CDNT 4 continues to have recruitment challenges and is making efforts to recruit. That does not wash with me because as I was sharply told one time when I started giving excuses, excuses do not get the job done.

I am highlighting it today because we have often seen in the State that when a thing becomes urgent and it is seen that people are not going to lie down and just accept this second-class service, suddenly, miraculously, ways are found of getting, procuring and providing the service. I have, on behalf of many people, chased down the lack of services in CDNT 4, otherwise known as the Connemara children's disability network team for a long time. What I need to know today is quite simple. The problems that the CDNT has are HSE problems. That is not my business. My only concern is when these children will get a service. When will they get the service when they need it? When will we adhere to the principle of early intervention and a stitch in time saving nine?

My colleague, Deputy Anne Rabbitte, the Minister of State with responsibility for disabilities, is fully committed to the continued development and enhancement of our children's disability services through the CDNTs, as they seek to ensure equitable access to services for all children with complex needs. I acknowledge the difficulties faced by children and their families seeking to access the services of children's disability network teams in CHO 2, and in this particular instance, CDNT 4. The Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, wishes to reiterate her unhappiness at this situation and her commitment to addressing the underlying issues.

The children's disability services in community healthcare west, CHW, were reconfigured into children's disability network teams in January 2021. There are nine CDNTs in CHW, including CDNT 4, which broadly covers the west Galway-Connemara area. Recruitment of staff to reduce waiting lists has been an ongoing issue, especially in this region. There are significant challenges both nationally and globally regarding the recruitment and retention of health and social care professionals, particularly to children's disability services. Following an intensive national recruitment campaign, we have recruited nearly 30 staff in the CHW region to date in 2024. While CDNT 4 has only been able to fill one post from this campaign, further campaigns are being run in an effort to attract suitable candidates to this area. While funding has been allocated, vacancy rates in CDNTs unfortunately remain high. On CDNT 4, the HSE advises that the vacancy rate currently stands at 50%, with six staff in place and six posts vacant.

CHW is fully committed to providing a quality service to the CDNT 4 cohort of clients, and every effort will be made to increase staffing numbers to support this during the remainder of 2024. These efforts are ongoing, both through the HSE's national recruitment service and HSE HR at a local level. Additional measures are also being progressed under the progressing disability services roadmap to increase capacity on CDNTs. These include student sponsorship programmes for health and social care professionals, HSCPs. There is a target of 175 therapy assistants to support HSCPs in delivering most effective and efficient services in environments appropriate to each child's needs. There is dedicated work on marketing CDNTs as a workplace of choice.

While recruitment measures are ongoing, I can advise that the HSE is driving forward several initiatives to reduce waiting times and strengthen services for children waiting. These efforts include sourcing assessments from private service providers. A new waiting list initiative with a total fund of €6.9 million will target those families waiting longest for assessments of need, with the HSE reimbursing clinicians directly through the procurement of capacity from approved private providers. This initiative will be progressed through the existing framework of providers procured by the HSE and is expected to provide an additional 2,500 assessments over a six-month period. While recruitment and retention of staff to CDNTs remains a considerable challenge, the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, wishes to reaffirm her commitment, as well as that of the HSE and Department to exploring all avenues to improve access to CDNTs for children and their families in CDNT 4 and across the country.

The one answer I did not get is the only answer I want. When will this child and all the other children get a service? If what is being done is not tackling it fast enough, what will the services do to tackle it faster? They have not got through the 2021 list yet. There is always a way. Do they need to pay more money? I do not know what they need to do. There is one thing they could do. I know one person from the area with one of the named skills who came home to live here. That person worked for the NHS in London and is fully qualified.

It has taken them a year to register with CORU. Mutual recognition of qualifications between Ireland and Britain and Ireland and the European Union is needed along with a quick transfer. The accreditation authorities seem to hold these things up forever when it is obvious that if somebody is good enough for the NHS, then, no disrespect, they are good enough for the HSE. We would take severe umbrage if someone in the NHS said somebody good enough for the HSE and qualified here properly, with degrees and all the rest, was not qualified to work in England. I am not satisfied that the recruitment processes in the HSE are adequate nor that this problem is being taken seriously enough. There is a need for crisis management. It seems that when it gets to the point of recruiting and doing interviews, it can take six or nine months to make an appointment. What kind of world are we living in? In the old days, you did an interview, provided the paper versions of your qualifications to guarantee that you had them, provided references, which were checked, and you had a job within three weeks. I do not know what we have done because nothing seems to work or move forward. All we get is excuses and children without a service. I hope the Minister of State carries back to the line Minister my frustration with this issue and my determination to keep advocating for those children who should get early intervention but are not.

I will communicate to the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, Deputy Ó Cuív's frustration at the situation. I will ask for her projection of when the services will be delivered. The Deputy can see from the answer that the problems seem to stem from a lack of staff - half of the positions in CDNT 4 are currently vacant. The HSE has turned to private service providers and has an allocation of nearly €7 million to provide an additional 2,500 assessments over the coming six months. Clearly, it is trying other options. The Deputy suggested that we look into faster mutual recognition of qualifications from jurisdictions such as the UK in order that we can recruit staff more quickly. I will suggest that to the Minister of State.

The HSE launched its first nationwide CDNT campaign in January 2024. Following a further validation and engagement process by the lead agencies, the HSE advises that as of June 2024, 145 job offers have been made to successful candidates, with about 53 in the final stages of the recruitment process. A second recruitment campaign applying learnings from the first will start shortly. I reassure the Deputy of the Minister of State's commitment to working with the HSE to enhance CDNT capacity, find effective solutions to reduce wait times and to ensure children and young people with complex needs have timely access to services in CDNT 4 and, of course, across the country. I will communicate to the Minister of State the Deputy's concern.

I assume we have two minutes each. I thank the Minister for meeting with Deputy O'Dowd, Senator McGreehan and me earlier. We communicated to him in stark terms how angry we are at Becton Dickinson and Company's decision to close its plant, which has been in Drogheda for 60 years. There are 176 jobs in the firing lines and many families are affected. The relationship between Drogheda and Becton Dickinson and Company goes back to the sixties. It is an extraordinary relationship. Hardly anybody in our town, the largest town in Ireland, has not had a relationship of one kind or another with that factory. Drogheda is Ireland's largest town and this is the last remaining IDA Ireland-backed manufacturing facility of scale in our town; let that sink in. We need an enterprise task force to address the reality that Drogheda is an IDA Ireland and foreign direct investment backwater. The Taoiseach said to me yesterday that the DART is coming to Drogheda and that the DART is a two-way street. It is, but where is the IDA Ireland policy to invest in jobs in Drogheda? Government enterprise policy seems to be to move as many people as possible out of Drogheda into Dublin to work, which is not good for our community or society. Will the Minister commit to setting up that enterprise task force? The withdrawal of Becton Dickinson and Company will take place over two years. Will the Minister ask the company to reflect on its decision and periodically review it? I do not want to raise the expectations of workers but it is incumbent on the Minister and IDA Ireland to engage with the company to request that it reviews the decision. I understand that as part of a trade mission, the Minister will meet Becton Dickinson and Company in New York next week. I request on behalf of the workers and SIPTU, which wishes to meet him, that he make that request, without raising expectations unfairly of workers.

I welcome the Minister. Many good things are happening in Drogheda with IDA Ireland. On 26 June, permission was given by Louth County Council for an advanced unit for new industry to come in. IDA Ireland owns 45 acres of land in Drogheda. There is the recent development of two data centres. Many good things are happening, but bad things are happening as well. The bad news for us is that 170 people, 110 early next year, will depart from Becton Dickinson and Company, which is a fantastic company. It is one of the major international, leading medical companies. That aggrieves me because, as one might guess, my first job 58 years ago was working in the office in Becton Dickinson and Company. I worked there for a year. It was a great company and there were great people there. It promoted local people within the company and internationally. Noel Harmon, who Deputy Nash's father would know, was on the international board of that company. It offered a lot to Drogheda and Drogheda has given it a lot.

My concern about this bad news is that there does not appear to be an early warning system. The Minister was not told about it in time. He could have told us and we could have attempted to persuade or approach people who might be able to help. Nevertheless, the fact is it has made the decision to go. The Minister will be visiting there next week. Perhaps there is a way it can be persuaded, even at this late stage, if there is any further or appropriate intervention we could make. At the heart of that company was a commitment to Drogheda. It was the first place it came to in Ireland. It aggrieves me greatly that it is leaving. We must leave no stone unturned. The pulse, the heartbeat of our State, be it the administrative or political system, must do their best to ensure we make another offer, if one has not been made already. If we cannot, we must work with them to get alternative, appropriate employment there. We need it badly now.

I thank the Deputies for raising this matter, which concerns a huge number of people and their families across County Louth, in particular Drogheda, who are impacted by the decision. I met my Oireachtas colleagues and others in relation to this significant news earlier this week. I met officials from IDA Ireland earlier today to discuss this important issue. I reiterate my position and that of the Government on the floor of the House this afternoon. Becton Dickinson UK and Ireland announced that, following an analysis of its network and forecast market demand, it had made the difficult decision to discontinue production at its site in Drogheda over the next two and a half years. The decision will result in phased closure of the Becton Dickinson Drogheda site by the end of quarter 4 of 2026. This will regrettably directly affect 170 people currently employed there. In response, the Government is on hand to support those workers. Our agencies will work to support the employees affected in the period ahead as they pursue alternative employment. This will include sharing the skills profiles of impacted employees with companies who may be hiring, with multinationals in IDA Ireland’s client base and with indigenous companies through Enterprise Ireland. This work has already begun.

I have also scheduled a meeting with the global Becton Dickinson leadership in the US in a fortnight as part of a wider trade and investment mission to the east coast of the United States of America. I will be discussing further this decision as raised by the Deputies.

In parallel, IDA Ireland continues to engage with Becton Dickinson corporate, Becton Dickinson UK and Ireland, and Becton Dickinson Drogheda to assist the company. It has indicated that the company is committed to supporting affected employees. IDA Ireland will also provide introductions to companies that are currently recruiting locally, and will provide support services for affected staff with Skillnet and Solas. IDA Ireland will also work with Becton Dickinson on marketing the site for potential new employers. This will involve IDA Ireland, Enterprise Ireland and the local enterprise offices working together to see how new employment can be secured for Drogheda and for the Becton Dickinson site in particular. The Government is on hand to support workers. Our agencies will work to support employees affected right across the period ahead.

Factors affecting the decision cited by the company include demand for the company's PosiFlush syringe line, competitiveness pressures, low-cost locations, the desire to right-size to match the company's supply chain, and the availability and capacity of Becton Dickinson locations including those in other locations than Ireland. Staff were notified by the company of its decision yesterday, 3 July, with a formal collective redundancy process to commence. This announcement follows an earlier 2023 decision to reduce the headcount by 60 due to the demand last year. This is very disappointing news for the Drogheda facility that has provided invaluable employment for almost 60 years. The company has indicated that it will continue to employ more than 900 workers in other sites in Enniscorthy, Dublin and Limerick.

Deputy O'Dowd has outlined his particular experience having worked with the company. I assure Deputies that in our proposed meeting, we will do everything we can to work with the company to have them evaluate the decision in the days ahead. I do not want to raise any expectations in connection with that because it is a clear board decision that has been taken on sustainability grounds by the company. As Deputy O'Dowd alluded to, the 50,000 sq. m new advanced factory unit received planning permission on 26 June. The procurement process will now begin to deliver that site and we will ensure that IDA Ireland will aggressively market it. Notwithstanding the efforts that will be made, if this timeline does come to pass IDA Ireland now has a very significant unit, hopefully working with Becton Dickinson if they depart. We will work in a very regulated industry, with a very valuable asset in the current life sciences chain, to work to ensure we get a client to fulfil it and improve the infrastructure and employment in Drogheda.

I agree that it is a very important development. We have all been working for years to ensure that IDA Ireland develops the advanced units we need to bring employment to Drogheda. It is now incumbent on IDA Ireland to fast-track that process. Planning permission has been provided and we hope that will move forward very quickly. They confirmed to me yesterday that they are aggressively marketing that to potential international investors. There is an issue with the Donore Road site. If we concede that the company will not review its decision - there is an onus on the Minister to ask it to reassess its decision on behalf of the workers and the people of Drogheda - we must bear in mind that state aid grant decisions made by the Government in 2021 mean that we are very limited in how we can provide grant aid to any future development on the Donore Road site. This decision was initiated by the previous Government and signed off by this one. There was a review of that. I am interested to establish what the review found. Is it the case that the site can be properly resourced in the future? If a future investor is interested in investing on that site, can they receive employment grants, for example?

In conclusion, if the threshold of jobs lost is 200 as well as - possibly - supply chain jobs associated with the plant itself, there is the possibility of applying for funds through the European Globalisation Adjustment Fund to assist with upskilling and retraining. Is that an avenue the Minister would pursue in association with the trade unions?

It is a shocking blow to the town. I accept the Minister's bona fides in trying to address the issue at this late stage. The fact is that the Taoiseach has promised a task force for Drogheda, which is what I want. I have met with him and we have discussed it with his staff. It will be broader, not in the sense of including jobs but including this as a key issue. Very shortly - around 16 July - I expect the Taoiseach to meet with people who are interested in this matter to discuss how we do that. The task force is very important.

This decision was made and the company was very clear on it. They talked about their Irish board, not their international board. Is there room for manoeuvre there? It is just an issue for me. If the Minister is going to the international headquarters, perhaps there is an opportunity to make a different play that might be listened to with different ears and with a different outcome. I also want to know if there is an issue around water and the cost of water. Is that one of the issues they notified to IDA Ireland? I understand the company has given IDA Ireland a critique of why they are moving out of Drogheda. We need to know that. I ask the Minister to place this on the record of the House or give it to us. We can address those issues if we know what they are.

At the end of the day we value the work force and we value the jobs, but we also value the company. I want to stress that. They have made a very significant contribution and I think they have huge potential as a leading advanced medical technology company. There is room for them in Drogheda and we will do whatever we can to help them.

I take on board both points made by Deputy Nash and both points made by Deputy O'Dowd in connection with this. I reiterate that the families of all those affected and those workers are to the forefront of our minds because it is a very significant employer that has had a generational impact within the town of Drogheda, and indeed beyond.

The national planning framework sets out a very significant designation for Drogheda to achieve capital investment into the future. We will be absolutely committing to working with the Taoiseach and others to ensure that happens. It is very important to the region. This has been demonstrated by the advanced factory unit getting planning permission on 26 June. There is work ahead to market it. We will work with Becton Dickinson into the future as well in its other locations. We will also try to see what we can do when we discuss it with management. I am happy to meet with SIPTU to see what can be achieved through the globalisation fund, but the bar is significantly high in connection with that.

On the state aid aspect, it is very clear in the European Union rules that funding a current industry or a current production line is quite different from if one has a new company moving in. IDA Ireland has a lot of tools in its armoury that it can release to try to get new clients in. We will support them to do just that.

In the wider context, the issue that was raised front and centre with me and brought to my attention is the changes in the supply chain. From a sustainability perspective, quite a proportion of their market is US based and they are moving the plant on that basis. We have all seen the stress we are under with our competitiveness. This is why we have a capital infrastructure programme of €165 billion out to the next decade. Water needs to be improved upon right around the country. I note that the regulators came out saying they need a 70% increase in price. That is very significant. I have written to the Minister for Housing, Local Government and Hermitage in connection with that. We need to ensure we are remaining competitive. That is a big concern in the economy. We must keep improving our grid infrastructure, our water and our wastewater. There is a huge amount of work to be done in that regard. We will obviously do that and play our part as I have done in the 13 weeks I have been in this job.

I thank the Minister of State for coming in. The Iveagh Gardens is a particularly unique part of our city. It is a hugely important asset to the local community, which has very little green space. It is a five-minute walk from here. It is a really important asset to our community. It is tucked away at the back of the National Concert Hall. It is in an area with one of the lowest amounts of green space per capita of any European city. We must protect it. We really must protect it. It would be devastating to allow this piece of heritage and this green area, which is a jewel in Dublin's crown, to disappear.

There are plans to develop an Irish children's science museum at the National Concert Hall by Irish Children's Museum Limited, which is a charity.

That will damage the park and eat into it. We must protect these gardens. This entire project is being carried out in the dark. It has created so many questions and there are still so many questions around it. It was discussed in the Committee of Public Accounts last week. There are many questions that no one seems to want or be able to answer.

According to the Irish Children’s Museum Limited, ICML, which is behind this project, work is due to begin next year. For me, this is astounding considering no business case or feasibility study has been done by the OPW or the Department of Public Expenditure, National Development Plan Delivery and Reform, none at all. No Department has committed to meeting the annual cost of running this science museum. No one knows who will be responsible for the running of this science museum. Will the ICML run it and continue the fundraising required to sustain the exhibits or will it be handed back to the State to run? Again, we do not know.

The Minister has confirmed that the OPW is legally obliged to construct the national children's science centre. Can a summary of the detailed legal advice be provided to the Committee of Public Accounts, as it requested on 12 June 2024? In fact, at a meeting on 11 October 2018, Mr. Buckley is on record as saying: "I cannot imagine that people of that eminence who are good, solid citizens, would wish to pursue the project if it did not pass muster with the cost-benefit analysis and public spending code." Will this project be subject to a business case appraisal in accordance with the requirements of the public spending code? If not, why not?

There is no need for a new science centre as there is already one on 20 acres that was built in 2019. The Minister of State with responsibility for sport relaunched it just this year. It is in Sandyford, which is just 11 km away from this other proposed science museum. It does not make any sense whatsoever. Who will own this proposed new building if it is built? What will be the estimated costs to the Government to fit out, provide installation and operate this building? The Minister of State has confirmed that the OPW is legally obliged to construct this national children's science centre. Can a summary of the detailed advice be provided?

The cost of this project is now estimated to be €70 million. When this project started, 21 years ago, the cost was estimated to be €15 million. There are also various issues around this project. It is still hanging around and it now seems that this board, the ICML, is going to try to push it on next year.

I thank the Deputies for raising this matter. The national children's science centre, NCSC, aims to provide an interactive science museum that will include over 200 scientific exhibits, interactive science spaces and demonstration areas, as well as a lecture and planetarium space. I understand that it is intended that these facilities will interact with science curriculum activity in schools, scientific organisations and related technological groups. This is consistent with the Government's policy on the promotion of science, technology, engineering and mathematics, STEM, as outlined in the Department of Education's policy statement 2017-2026.

The development of the national children’s science centre received a notification of a decision to grant planning permission from Dublin City Council on 23 November 2022. Following a third-party appeal from two parties, An Bord Pleanála issued a grant of planning permission in March 2024. The planning submission made by the OPW, along with the response to the third-party appeal issued to An Bord Pleanála, addressed all the issues raised regarding any possible impacts to the Iveagh Gardens. This is supported by An Bord Pleanála within the report of the inspectors. The concerns expressed in the petition from the Save the Iveagh Gardens group were addressed as part of the OPW planning application made in 2022. An Bord Pleanála accepted the OPW’s submission in its decision.

The national children’s science centre will re-establish some of the historic links that existed as part of the original Iveagh Garden 1865 design that was broken due to the construction of the current wall in 1909. It is important to note that the original 1865 exhibition design incorporated the exhibition building and the Iveagh Gardens as one entity. With the establishment of the university at Earlsfort Terrace, the Iveagh Gardens location was separated by a wall. The new building will not encroach on the Iveagh Gardens. It will allow universal access to the gardens from Earlsfort Terrace which is currently not possible.

During 2021, arbitration proceedings were brought by Irish Children’s Museum Limited, as the Deputy referred to. The arbitrator found in favour of the ICML in June 2022. The arbitrator has yet to reconvene the parties to the case following the recent grant of planning permission in March 2024. The subject of this determination is likely to set out timelines for the procurement of the project by the OPW. Provision for the national children’s science centre is not included in the 2023 Estimates as the arbitration proceedings were ongoing. The Government has yet to decide which Government Department or Departments will be the funder of this building. The details of the conditions of the planning permission are currently being assessed and an update on the total project costs will be determined soon. Following the arbitration process, the OPW has a legal obligation to construct the national children's science centre.

This project has been foisted on the OPW and the National Concert Hall. The Iveagh Gardens are an extremely important part of our heritage. The location functions as a lung in the city of Dublin and it must be protected. This is the thin edge of the wedge. As I said, this project was foisted on the National Concert Hall. Three Departments have grant funded the project but they have left the National Concert Hall and the OPW holding the baby. The OPW will build the structure but it will not assess the viability of the project. It has stated this fact. We do not know if the viability has been assessed. Neither do we know who is going to assess the viability of this project.

This is a remarkable story, with absolutely zero transparency. Why do we need another science museum? We already have one just 10 km or 11 km from here. The ICML charity needs to answer these questions. It seems to be like a secret organisation, to be honest. It has an office in the National Concert Hall. Who gives it that office? Is it paying rent? What are the conditions in this regard?

This project would have a devastating impact on the Iveagh Gardens, which have been protected so far. We must, though, be vigilant about it. There is no strong case for this science museum. If there is one, I would like to hear what it is. We must do everything we can to save the Iveagh Gardens because it is a beautiful space. More than 46,000 people signed a petition calling for the Iveagh Gardens to be protected and this project to be ended. I call on the Minister of State to get some answers for the people who are outraged by the damage that will be done to the Iveagh Gardens. People from right across the city use the space daily. It is also used for various events. It is something we need to protect.

I have only held this portfolio for a short time, but my understanding is that the ICML brought forward a proposal to build a science centre. That centre has ended up being the subject of arbitration in 2013 and 2021, with a decision having been made in June 2022. That decision from the arbitrator was that the OPW had the legal obligation to build the national science centre. It went through planning and it was appealed to An Board Pleanála, with a final decision made by that agency in March 2024.

The arbitrator has to reconvene to bring back the parties to the case, which are the OPW and the Irish Children's Museum Company Limited, to determine what are the deadlines and the next steps forward. That arbitrator's decision was a legal decision, which stated that the OPW had a legal obligation to build a national science centre. The Government is yet to decide which Department will fund the building. In summary, based on the decision and ruling of the arbitrator in June 2022, the OPW has a legal obligation to construct the science centre. We are obviously working through the details of planning permission and an update of the total costs will then be determined. The OPW will continue to engage with other Departments regarding the execution of its obligations including the funding costs. The arbitrator has yet to convene a meeting between the parties, which are the Irish Children's Museum Company Limited and the OPW to decide the next steps forward.

I did not get to that yet. It got the site from the National Concert Hall by whatever means. That has been arranged. It has gone to arbitration to get the OPW to build it. The OPW is the manager and curator of the State's facilities and properties. The arbitrator's decision is that the OPW must build it. That seems to imply the Government must also fund it. Would you not want to know before you start what you are going to be spending on it?

It went through a legal process. The legal process has gone on for many years and dates back to 2003. There was a Government decision at the time. It was before my time and ultimately ended up in arbitration. The most recent arbitration was in 2021. The arbitrator made a decision in June 2022, which basically said the OPW is legally obliged to build it. The next steps were that the OPW had to apply for planning permission. It was appealed to An Bord Pleanála by the two parties. An Bord Pleanála made its final decision with a grant in March 2024. The next step is that the arbitrator reconvenes with the parties, which are the Irish Children's Museum Company Limited, which is the promoter, and the OPW, to decide the next steps. The Government has yet to decide which Department will fund this building. This building has just been granted final permission. That is the current state of play.