Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 2 Jul 2024

In the first five months of this year, there was an 87% drop in the number of patients seen in SouthDoc in Blackpool compared with 2019, representing almost 9,000 fewer patients seen in the first six of months of the year. My constituents who use the SouthDoc out-of-hours facility have told me that people are being sent to the Kinsale Road, Youghal or Midleton, but SouthDoc in Blackpool is refusing to see them because it is closed in all but name. When people ring the service, they are told to go to SouthDoc on the Kinsale Road.

I was recently told in the Chamber that SouthDoc Blackpool was not closed and was operating. That is not true. A Minister of the Government came in here and told me an untruth. I believe the Minister was given the wrong information from SouthDoc, but I want the record corrected and I want it stated here as a fact that SouthDoc in Blackpool in Cork is closed.

Dozens of people have contacted me and my colleagues in Cork to say that when they ring SouthDoc in Blackpool they cannot get an appointment. It is the position of the Government and HSE that the service is open. People are lying to the people of Cork North Central. It is a disgrace that the Minister could come in here with information from the HSE, which it received from SouthDoc, that is an actual lie.

I am not sure what response the Minister of State has in front of her, but I have the figures here. In January 2019, 2,399 patients were seen. In January 2024, 230 patients were seen. In 2019, the service was seeing 600 patients each week, but in 2024 it is seeing 60 patients a week. The practice is in receipt of millions of euro to provide a service, but it is not doing so. It is not good enough. The people on the northside are sick and tired of being told lies and neglected. Is it the position of the Government that it will stand over millions of euro being paid for a service that is not being delivered? Will the Government finally believe the people of the northside of Cork and force SouthDoc Blackpool to reopen?

To add injury to injury, last Friday a GP practice on Shandon Street in my constituency closed and the patients were moved to another doctor outside the area. Another GP service in Blackpool will close on Friday. Where is the plan for GP services on the northside of Cork city? Last year, a GP was lost in Blarney and nothing happened. How is this allowed to happen? Who is responsible for this? It is the responsibility of the Minister of State and HSE. People in my area cannot see a GP during the day, out-of-hours or at the weekend. There are sick children.

A couple of weeks ago it took someone nearly an hour to get to the Kinsale Road because tens of thousands of people were in Cork for a big concert in Páirc Uí Chaoimh. Why should someone who lives five minutes from Blackpool have to travel across the city? There is no connectivity and no bus service. People who do not drive or do not have a family member to bring them to see a GP have to get a taxi at €30 or €40 a go. This issue does not just affect the northside of the city. It affects Glanmire, Whitechurch, Carrignavar, Blarney and Togher. Over 100,000 people are affected.

Before I start, I have to call out what the Deputy said. It is unfair to call any Minister a liar or say that he or she is telling lies. I want that on the record of the Dáil. Any Minister who comes in here in good faith to answer Topical Issue Matters is given a response which is local to the area. We have to work with the information that is given to us. I am now giving the Deputy an opportunity to withdraw the statement he made that a Minister came in here and told lies.

I said the Minister got the information from the HSE and SouthDoc. What the Minister said was a lie. The Minister might have believed it to be true, but the information he had was incorrect.

I want the Dáil record corrected because I am right and the Minister is wrong. He got information from SouthDoc in Blackpool that is a lie. May I say-----

As the Deputy will be aware, the SouthDoc co-operative provides GP out-of-hours services. It has 23 health centres located across Cork and Kerry, including the Blackpool treatment centre in north Cork city. The issue of withdrawal or reduction of out-of-hours services at certain treatment centres has been raised several times with the HSE and SouthDoc. Multiple assurances have been received from SouthDoc that there has been no reduction in service to patients in Cork city.

SouthDoc has provided assurances that the Blackpool treatment centre has not closed and there is no intention to withdraw services from any SouthDoc treatment centre. Patients continue to be dealt with by appointment only. That will remain unchanged. Appointments are available following contact with the SouthDoc call centre and triage services. Any person who requires out-of-hours GP care will be provided with that care either at a suitable treatment centre or, where his or her clinical condition so requires, in the patient's home. An assurance has again been received that consultations by appointment are still provided at the Blackpool treatment centre where appropriate. Furthermore, SouthDoc has advised, as I said, that there is no intention to close any of its treatment centres.

Regarding the issue of the closure or relocation of two GP services, Cork Kerry Community Healthcare has advised that one GP in the Cork city area has resigned. Where a vacancy arises, the HSE takes appropriate measures to ensure continuity of care for the patients concerned. The HSE has advised that interviews have concluded to ensure this patient panel will transfer safely and effectively to another GP within the area. The HSE is to communicate with the general medical services, GMS, patients concerned within the next two weeks informing them of their new GP.

I want to be really fair to the Minister of State. I know she is reading out a response she was given. It is the same response other Ministers have read out previously. She stated that she has received assurances from the Blackpool treatment centre. I have in my hand a copy of the facts and figures I obtained in the response to a parliamentary question. In January 2019, 2,399 patients were seen at Blackpool. In January 2024, that number was 230. In February 2019, 1,899 patients were seen. In February 2024, the number of patients was 253. It continues the same all the way along. This proves that Blackpool is closed.

I have telephoned the Blackpool centre because I have had family members who were sick in recent months. I was told I had to take my wife and daughter to the clinic on the Kinsale Road roundabout for treatment. I was told on the telephone that no patients were being seen at Blackpool and that it was providing only call-out services. The doctor who should be based in Blackpool SouthDoc is in his car going everywhere from Mallow to Youghal to west Cork. That is not a GP service. There should be a GP based in Blackpool.

When the Minister of State leaves tomorrow morning, will she contact the HSE in Cork and Kerry and ask it to get on to SouthDoc? I want the record cleared and made straight. The information she has given, like other Ministers before her have given, is not right and it is not accurate. It is a lie SouthDoc is telling her and the HSE. I am not calling her a liar. I am calling the people in SouthDoc liars.

I have the information in my hand. In addition, I rang the service when my wife and daughter had the influenza that was going around. I have been raising this issue for a year. How can a company that is getting millions of euro to provide an out-of-hours service get away with not providing that service? It closed the clinic in Kilworth. It has laid off drivers across Cork county and cut back on services. Will the Minister of State please take on board what I am saying? I do not want to argue with her. My argument is with SouthDoc for not providing a service to people on the north side of Cork city.

I understand the Deputy's frustration. I have heard his concerns and I will convey them to the Minister. I have read out the best information that was made available to me this evening before I came to the Chamber. I wanted to take this matter because I know the Deputy wanted a Minister from the Department of Health to do so. I specifically stayed to do that.

SouthDoc has provided assurance that the Blackpool treatment centre has not closed and that it has no intention of withdrawing services from any SouthDoc treatment centre. It is saying its out-of-hours consultations are being provided on an appointment-only basis. Appointments are available following contact with the SouthDoc call centre - the reference was not to Blackpool but to the SouthDoc call centre - and triage services. Any person who requires out-of-hours GP care will be provided with that care at a suitable treatment centre. SouthDoc does not specify it will be provided at Blackpool. We are all dependent on out-of-hours GP services, regardless of where we live. I might be sent to Dungarvan or to Waterford city. Alternatively, SouthDoc is indicating, where the clinical condition of the patient so requires, care will be provided in his or her home. The Deputy has acknowledged that the SouthDoc doctor attends patients in their homes. There is a little bit of a contradiction there in what he is saying.

GPs do retire and are entitled to do so. The number of doctors entering GP training has increased by 80% between 2015 and 2023. There were 286 new entrants to GP training last year. A total of 350 new-entrant places have been provided for this year. Based on expected GP graduate and GP retirements numbers, the Department of Health estimates that between 2023 and 2027, between 1.5 and three GP graduates will on-board for every GP retirement.

I raise the proposed work stoppages next week by barristers. Last October, in an announcement referring to budget 2024, the Minister, Deputy McEntee, stated:

I am... pleased to have secured funding of €9 million to make progress in increasing the fees payable to legal professionals for criminal legal aid by 10% in early 2024. In conjunction with [that] increase... the intention is to build on the strengths of the criminal legal aid scheme while addressing any issues relating to how it is structured. Engagement will now begin with the professionals... to identify reforms.

This has not happened and it is the reason behind the proposed work stoppages and withdrawal of services.

This withdrawal is an escalation of previous action taken in October last year. That action was suspended in the expectation, barristers say, that the commitment by the Minister would be the beginning of a process. However, according to them, that process has yet to commence.

Barristers, as we know, are key to the smooth functioning of the criminal justice system, prosecuting and defending. It is essential that the State and victims’ cases be prosecuted in the best possible way. Equally, every citizen is entitled to be protected by a vigorous defence, whether by contest or plea. There is a requirement for decent remuneration for the barristers to maintain standards. Efficiencies have been delivered in the past, but barristers are now in limbo without a proper pay review. The pay cut, in real terms, has been one of 40% over the past 20 years, dating from when the Government unilaterally broke the barristers’ link to public sector pay.

The Minister has received serious correspondence from the Bar Council and others. They wrote to her on 21 June stating she will recall that in October they withdrew their services because of the lack of confidence in the Government’s commitment to the preservation of the highest standards of administration of criminal justice. That was the first time ever that such action was taken. The barristers are now about to repeat it, for three days this month, owing to their utter frustration over what has happened.

Two thirds of all barristers leave after six years. There is a complete running down of the criminal justice system. A continued exodus of criminal law practitioners has created the conditions for a grave manpower – I would prefer the term “woman power” – crisis in respect of front-line advocacy services. There are several very serious consequences, and these have been outlined. The one that really jumps out at me is the undoubtedly profound effect on the administration of criminal justice and the public good. Skills, confidence and the equivalent of the apprenticeship, namely that involving the master and devil, are all going by the board, and more than two thirds of barristers pull out after six years. There is no independent review, although it was promised by the Government.

A headline in The Irish Times states FEMPI rules have been unwound. That is what the public expenditure Minister said in his annual report on the operation of the 2009 FEMPI legislation, which he laid before the Oireachtas in recent days. Someone should really tell practising criminal barristers that the FEMPI cuts have been unwound because, in their professional lives, they clearly state they have not been. It is a matter of fact that they have not. If the era of FEMPI is truly over, it has to be concluded with no exceptions whatsoever.

We rightly speak a lot in this House about the traumatising impact that the courts process can have on the victims of crime, but we cannot state objectively that we care about the victims of crime if we do not treat fairly the professionals on whom the State depends for the fair functioning of our courts system to advocate, defend and prosecute. The latter were promised a 10% restoration and they received it last year, but they were also promised an independent review mechanism to address the fee structures. They did not get this. Why are they being singled out for this inequitable and downright shabby treatment? The Department of Justice seems to be passing the buck to the Department of public expenditure and reform but I assume it is in fact the former that is responsible for managing and addressing this issue, given that its Minister is before us this evening to answer in this debate.

I thank all three Deputies for raising this important matter. I appreciate the important role that our legal profession, our barristers and solicitors, play in the administration of criminal justice. I am aware of the proposed withdrawal of services on 9 July, 15 July and 24 July. Like everyone here, I hope this can be avoided. My Department has commenced a review of criminal legal aid. We have a dedicated team of officials working on this. The Department will continue to engage with all relevant stakeholders, including the legal profession, on the modernisation and funding of the legal aid system. Following last year’s increase, a process examining overall reform was committed to, and it was to work in tandem with the legal provision. The team is currently laying down the foundations for an improved, more efficient system of administering criminal legal aid and intends to work collaboratively with all relevant stakeholders. Again, the review and modernisation of the criminal legal aid scheme have been discussed with the Bar Council and Law Society of Ireland. My officials met them recently and I have had conversations in this regard also. Their input is extremely important as part of the overall process.

Last summer, as the Deputies rightly stated, I told the Bar Council that I saw no good reason the legal profession was left waiting for crisis-era reductions to be reversed. That is still very much my position. I said last summer that I wanted to make progress on criminal legal aid in last year’s budget and I did just that. I secured €9 million in additional funding to provide for the 10% increase in criminal legal aid fees, which came into effect from 1 January 2024. I believe this represented progress. I will be equally clear regarding my intentions for this year. I will again seek to make progress in this year’s budget in regard to the restoration of criminal legal aid fees; however, as the Deputies will all be aware, we cannot make budget announcements months ahead of budget day. A budgetary process must be followed here. While I cannot pre-empt a budgetary decision, I hope the progress we achieved last year is a sign of good faith on my part and the part of the Government to the effect that more can be achieved this year.

To further modernise the criminal legal aid system, the general scheme of the Criminal Justice (Legal Aid) Bill 2023 was published in July of last year. The key purpose of the Bill is to transfer the administration of the criminal legal aid scheme to the Legal Aid Board and otherwise update the administration of criminal legal aid. The Bill will modernise the operation of the criminal legal aid scheme, introducing strengthened oversight and governance structures, moving it to a more modern and online system, which is obviously quicker and more effective for everybody.

Officials in my Department have recently met representatives of the Bar Council and Law Society of Ireland, and it is my intention that significant progress will be made on this matter as Department officials continue to engage with the legal profession. The overall reform has not been progressed as much as I would like. However, a lot of work has been done in the background, and we are making progress in that regard. Separately, I have made very clear my intention to try to make further progress, but all of us, being Deputies, understand how the budget works and that it is not possible for me to stand here and say I will be able to commit to amount X in terms of restoration. However, I am very clear that I believe the fees should be fully restored. I have made progress already and intend to continue to do so. Obviously, however, I would prefer not to have services withdrawn. I am very much aware of the impact this would have on the overall system. We cannot commit to restoration prior to a budget but I am very clear about my commitment to try to restore fees overall.

I thank the Minister for the reply. Years ago, when there were massive delays in payments, many barristers left the system for a long time. By and large, the system works fairly well but barristers have been increasingly frustrated over the past nine months. I understand that these things take time, but for years now barristers have been told this is a decision for the Department of public expenditure, and that is why we originally submitted our case to that Department. All the barristers are requesting is that they be treated fairly, that promises made be kept and that barristers’ treatment be consistent with that of other State workers and contractors. The Government or Department needs to take action to try to avoid three days of disruption to an already delayed system.

We did not get a written reply, so this is difficult. The Bar Council is taking unprecedented action. October was the first time such action had ever been taken, and now we are to have action again for three days. Sara Phelan, chair of the Bar Council, has stated the council has at all times made clear, both to Government and to its members, that it would be willing to allow a period of time up to 30 June 2024 for the review proposed but that nothing has happened. Seán Guerin, SC, chair of the Criminal State Bar Committee, said:

It is highly regrettable that we have been left with no choice but to take this course of action. It has been acknowledged in Government that there is ‘no good reason’ why fees of criminal barristers shouldn’t be restored, yet eight months on from a commitment to establish a review process, no meaningful progress has been made.

This has the most serious consequences for the criminal law, justice and the common good. Barristers are being treated differently. All civil and public servants, including us in this Chamber, have had their pay restored, but not barristers.

Other independent contractors have had their FEMPI-related cuts fully reversed. Barristers have been uniquely singled out for what has been described as extremely shabby treatment.

In some ways, the Minister is answering a question that no one actually asked. No one has asked her about the review of the free legal aid system. I view that as entirely separate based on a commitment that the Government gave to involve itself in the creation of a mechanism that would independently assess the free structure. The Bar Council wants that to be time bound. So confident is the council in its case - it should be, given that it is objectively being treated inequitably - that it is prepared to be bound by a particular mechanism. The Government has asked IALPA and Aer Lingus to get into a room and resolve their difficulties. Barristers have requested meetings with the Minister and the Minister for public expenditure and reform. Will that request be granted in order that they might be advised of the process?

I mentioned the overall change because this is all part of the work that is being done. This is linked to last year’s 10% increase and is part of improving the overall system, which includes fees, so I would like to think that the action I have taken to date shows my good faith commitment to restoring fees. This is not just about the 10%, but a potential further 8% and another 8% on top of that. That is not going to happen overnight. We had a conversation in the Chamber only a few hours ago when we discussed needing more judges and more resources for judges and more gardaí and more supports for gardaí. I have to ensure that the Department of Justice has a balanced budget that is spread across all of the areas that require it. Some €9 million was allocated last year for a 10% restoration. I have been clear that is my intention to restore fees further separate to any work that is happening in terms of improvements to the system, moving online, changing how we provide criminal legal aid and fees in general. That work will commence and progress, but what the barristers are asking for now is a restoration. I am saying clearly that I will continue to work on that this year and make further progress. I hope that the actions I have taken to date will show that progress irrespective of any of the other work, which will happen anyway. What the barristers want to know is that we are working towards restoration, and that is my objective and intention. Unfortunately, however, I cannot give an overall commitment before the budget has been negotiated and agreed, but I will ensure it forms part of my overall objectives. I cannot be clearer on that.

Locals have been raising with me concerns about pollution in the River Sullane downstream from the town of Macroom. There are two particular issues of concern to locals, namely the pollution itself and what appears to be the authorities’ lack of interest in pursuing the polluter. For some time, locals have been raising concerns with different authorities about foul discharges into the Sullane, smells, visible pollution, things floating in the water, cloudy water and so on. This does not just happen when there is flooding; it happens at various times. Fishers have told me that they have experienced these issues over a number of years as well. It is likely that this situation is what contributed to Uisce Éireann’s decision to build a new plant. Thankfully, that construction is under way. It will take much of two years to build but is well under way at this stage and could eventually deal with the pollution. In the meantime, though, the pollution appears to be continuing.

Concerns were raised with Uisce Éireann in April, May and June, but there were no responses until today just before the matter was to be raised on the floor of the Dáil. That response blamed recent flooding events without ever acknowledging the issues that had been repeatedly raised by many people. Locals are asking questions but feel like they are being fobbed off, not being recognised and not being taken seriously on this issue.

There are concerns about the authorities’ lack of interest. The EPA appears to be tolerating the apparent situation at Uisce Éireann and not pursuing a prosecution of the latter. Locals are asking reasonable questions about how this is possible. They look over the road to Ballingeary where no prosecution seems to have been taken against Uisce Éireann over sewage discharges. They look up the road to Freemount where there was a recent fish kill. Surely the polluter will be pursued there. People are left wondering why this soft-touch approach is being taken. If a farmer or business were polluting, that person or business would undoubtedly be pursued through the courts and convicted, but there seems to be a more comfortable relationship with Uisce Éireann when it is the polluter. How can this be explained to farmers, who feel that the full rigours of the law will be applied to them if they pollute but see pollution being tolerated elsewhere? It should not be tolerated. Every polluter should be treated the same.

There clearly is pollution and there has been for some time. It needs to be dealt with. The polluter needs to feel the full rigours of the various authorities to ensure that it deals with this pollution and does not allow it to happen in other areas.

I thank Deputy Moynihan for raising the issue of pollution in the River Sullane near Macroom. I am taking this matter on behalf of the Minister, Deputy O'Brien.

The Deputy will appreciate that the operation of the Macroom wastewater treatment plant is a matter for Uisce Éireann, which, since 1 January 2014, has statutory responsibility for all aspects of water services planning, delivery and operation at national, regional and local levels. In turn, the Environmental Protection Agency, EPA, as the environmental regulator, is responsible for setting quality standards and enforcing compliance with the wastewater treatment directive.

The Minister has made inquiries with Uisce Éireann and is informed that the recent incidents at the Macroom wastewater treatment plant were caused by a combination of heavy rainfall, to which the Deputy alluded, and equipment failures. Remedial actions have been undertaken and Uisce Éireann is monitoring the situation. Uisce Éireann has notified the EPA and Inland Fisheries Ireland of all incidents accordingly.

The Macroom wastewater treatment plant is currently undergoing a substantial upgrade worth in excess of €21 million. This will address the existing wastewater infrastructure, which is regarded as overloaded and outdated. These works are expected to take 24 months. With work starting in November 2023, the project is scheduled for completion at the end of 2025. The required work involves the decommissioning of the existing plant and structure and the construction of new plant, including a connection to the existing outfall pipe to safely discharge treated wastewater into the River Sullane. The upgrade works will bring the treatment plant back into compliance with the wastewater discharge licence and mitigate the effects of flooding. Further details on this upgrade project are available on Uisce Éireann's website. Given that the Deputy is from the locality, he knows them very well, probably better than Uisce Éireann.

The Deputy raised two issues, the first of which was that there was pollution that had been ongoing for some time, that locals were concerned about it and that they felt they were being fobbed off. The Deputy also spoke about polluters or, to use the correct terminology, potential polluters. I will bring the Deputy's concerns to the Minister.

I have no doubt that the ongoing development at the Macroom wastewater treatment plant, which is undergoing a substantial upgrade, should make a significant difference. Reading between the lines, when there is an old plant and a great deal of wastewater and smells after heavy rainfall, it is difficult for residents. The upgrade work will bring the treatment plant back into compliance with the wastewater discharge licence and mitigate the effects of flooding. For those living in the Macroom area and close to the River Sullane, this cannot happen soon enough.

Táim ag tarraingt aníos an cheist seo faoi thruailliú san Súlán i Maigh Chromtha. Tá go leor de mhuintir na háite tar éis an cheist seo a tharraingt aníos linn. Faigheann siad an boladh agus feiceann siad an truailliú san abhainn agus tá siad buartha nach bhfuil Uisce Éireann nó an EPA ag dul i ngleic leis an bhfadhb. Feicimid go bhfuil a ghnó idir lámha acu ach, idir an dá linn, tá truailliú leanúnach ann agus tá sé ann le roinnt mhaith blianta. Tá an cheist seo tarraingthe aníos arís is arís eile ag muintir na háite, leis an EPA agus le hUisce Éireann, agus braitheann siad nach bhfuil an EPA dáiríre mar gheall air agus nach bhfuil sé ag tabhairt faoin dream atá ag déanamh an truaillithe.

This needs to be brought to a head. It is positive that there is ongoing work and that a new plant is being put in place. It is likely to resolve issues, but in the meantime, there is pollution and there is a polluter who appears to be walking away from it. That is very much at odds with other situations around where if a farmer was a polluter or if it was in a commercial enterprise, they would feel the full rigours of the law, and rightly so. One polluter should not be treated differently from another polluter. There should be convictions followed up on polluters on the Sullane as we are seeing here in Macroom.

I note the point that the Minister of State makes about the recent incident and about the likelihood that it is related to flooding or recent heavy rains. It is much more than that. That is just a cop-out or a fob-off by the same authorities. We know this has been going on for some time and it is not just about heavy rainfall. If a plant is not operating, the operator should be held accountable, and if the environment is being polluted, the full rigours of the law should be on the polluter.

I thank the Deputy and I will certainly bring his concerns back to the Minister, who has overall responsibility in these challenges. As the Deputy knows, the programme for Government is committed to funding Uisce Éireann's capital investment plan for water and wastewater infrastructure on a multi-annual basis. There will be record levels of investment in water services by Uisce Éireann in the period 2021 to 2025, with a commitment of almost €6 billion in capital investment, of which more than €4.5 billion would be Voted Exchequer funding for domestic water services.

Indeed the Deputy has acknowledged the fact that work is under way on the substantial upgrade of the Macroom wastewater treatment plant, worth in excess of €21 million, and in the long term this should resolve the issues. I know the Deputy is more concerned with the short-term issues at the moment, the fact there is pollution and that he has genuine concerns. I will certainly relay those back to the Minister.

I thank the office of the Ceann Comhairle for selecting this matter. I also thank the Minister of State for being here.

I had a bit of déjà vu recently when I visited the old technical school in Fermoy, which was built in 1931. I am sure the Minister of State knows about it as she has never been too far away from it. I started teaching there about 46 years ago when I was very young. The basement of the old school is now home to Fermoy Educate Together National School in Fermoy and I visited the place recently on an invitation. I was struck by the vibrancy, the professionalism and dedication of the staff and the atmosphere within the school. You can pick that up from actually going into a school. It is inclusive, fun and an excellent educational experience for all of the children, but there is a problem. It is extremely cramped. There are three classrooms which fall below the required size, which I am told is 18 sq. m. One of these is 25 sq. m. There are cramped classrooms for students and staff.

Fermoy was one of the areas surveyed in 2012 and 2013 under the patronage divesting process and there was sufficient parental demand to support change in school patronage. Since then, the school has grown in popularity among families in the town, with 87 children, I am told, now enrolled in the school and 96 being expected in September. Everyone was delighted when the school opened its doors in 2018 but it now needs attention. I have spoken to the Minister, Deputy Foley, about it on a few occasions and I have asked her to visit the school, and I know some people from the Department have also been there.

The Educate Together school is in the basement and the ETB has rooms upstairs, which it needs and is making use of. There might be room to put in extra classrooms downstairs in the short term. The school got permission to have an autism class, but it is not suitable at all for that. I am sure the Minister of State realises that when dealing with autistic children, they need space and quiet. They have a little quiet space there but, really and truly, it needs attention. What is really needed in the long term for this school in Fermoy is a new building. It is very popular and is very much liked by the students and teachers, but they are literally on top of each other and it is in the basement. You can imagine how cramped and unsuitable the building is, but also how popular it is. The parents of Fermoy want this school and they want it to be progressed.

The Department has done marvellous work in other areas in building and expanding schools and putting in provision, but this is probably one of the poorest I have seen in a long time. I know there is a divesting programme and I know the Minister of State will tell me there was an agreement that the school should cap its size and all that stuff. I have seen all of the material and have been on this issue for a while. The reason I am raising it again this evening is to draw attention to it and to ask that the Department rolls up its sleeves, has a look at this and makes a commitment to improve matters for the students, the teachers, the staff, the parents and the community of Fermoy. They need that at the very least.

There are other issues here which I wish to draw to the attention of the Minister of State. You can imagine that, in a cramped condition like that, there are safety issues involved. There are fire safety and other issues which I believe we should be concerned about. It is not just the education of the children, and nowadays many primary schools have plenty of space, light and air, proper toilet facilities, and so on. That is not the case here. It really needs attention. The parents are screaming out for that. They are very reasonable but at this stage the school is so popular and we are going to see more and more children wanting to join the school but cannot because it is too cramped and too small. I await the Minister of State's response.

I thank the Deputy for raising this very important issue on Fermoy Educate Together National School in Cork East. I am answering this Topical Issue on behalf of the Minister, Deputy Foley. I believe the Deputy has already pre-empted some of the response.

The Deputy most certainly is aware that Fermoy Educate Together National School is an ordinary mixed school in the town of Fermoy, County Cork. I take on board the point and the fact he said that it was built in 1931 and that the Deputy started teaching there a few years ago. The school had an enrolment in September 2022 of 52 pupils and in September 2023 of 85 pupils. The school is located in the Fermoy school planning area and there are currently 19 primary schools and three post-primary schools in this school planning area.

By way of background, Fermoy was one of the areas surveyed in 2012-13 under the patronage divesting process where there was sufficient parental demand supporting changes in school patronage. The areas surveyed were areas where demographics were not growing and therefore it was unlikely that a new multidenominational school would be established for demographic reasons. The clear policy on patronage divesting was to use existing educational infrastructure to facilitate provision of diversity in areas where there was no demographic imperative to establish new schools. The reason for this approach was the imperative - equally valid now as it was then - to focus the schools capital programme on the provision of additional mainstream and special educational school places at both primary and post-primary levels to ensure every pupil can access a school place.

As part of the process of identifying a suitable accommodation solution which would facilitate the establishment of the school, the Department liaised with Cork Education and Training Board. To facilitate the establishment of the new school, the ETB agreed to the co-location of the Educate Together school at the former technical school in Fermoy, together with some of the ETB's further education and training services.

Prior to the establishment of the new school in 2018 under the patronage divesting process, the Department and Educate Together as school patron agreed that given the accommodation available at the property and the need for the ETB to accommodate some further education and training services from the property, the school would be established as a four-classroom school and that the school would maintain this configuration in the accommodation in the former technical school unless an existing school building was freed up for use in the area. As part of this engagement, the Department outlined to the school patron the importance of enrolments being managed within the available accommodation in a sustainable way, and this would be communicated to the school board of management so that parents could be fully informed and to manage expectations. However, the school has taken the decision to accept a significant increase in enrolments, from 52 in the 2022-2023 school year to 85 in the 2023-2024 school year.

The role of the Department is to ensure all schools in an area can, between them, cater to school place requirements in that area. The broader position in the Fermoy school planning area is that demographics at primary level are declining and will steadily decrease for the foreseeable future.

I wish to bring to the Deputy's attention that officials in the Department of Education have been engaging with the school patron, that is, Educate Together, in respect of the current and future needs of the school. I take on board what Deputy Stanton has said on the numbers and the overcrowding. A technical visit by the Department was undertaken recently, the results of which are informing current discussions with the patron. The patron has been in contact with the ETB around accommodation arrangements in the building. The Department will also continue to liaise with the school and the National Council for Special Education, NCSE, regarding any requirements for accommodation for children with special educational needs in the Fermoy school planning area.

I thank the Minister of State for her response which throws up a number of interesting points and questions. For instance, she stated that "the role of the Department is to ensure that all schools in the area can, between them, cater to school place requirements in that area". I am sure the Minister of State will agree with me that the wishes of parents must also be taken into account. If more and more parents want to move to a different model or patron, then the Department's role surely should be to facilitate that as well. She also stated that "the broader position in the Fermoy school planning area is that demographics at primary level are declining". They are not declining in this school but rather going the other way. The parents are demanding and asking for this. They want their children to experience the Educate Together model. That is what they are going for. It is really important we look at this. It is in a basement of a school and it is very cramped.

As for children with special needs, I see, in the very last line of the Minister of State's response, that the "Department will also continue to liaise with the school and the National Council for Special Education, NCSE, regarding any requirements for accommodation for children with special educational needs in the Fermoy school planning area". The parents want to send their children to this particular school. As I said in my earlier remarks, it is an excellent school and one which the parents like. I visited it myself and I could pick up the professionalism and care of the teachers, as well as the positive atmosphere of the school. One can imagine what the school would be like if it was in a proper building, but it is not. The school is in a very cramped, overcrowded and old building which dates back to 1931. It is in the basement of that building, which is even worse.

I ask the Minister of State to talk to her colleague, the Minister for Education, Deputy Norma Foley, in this regard. I have spoken and written to her about this issue before. All we are getting by way of response here is the words "engage" and "liaise", but I want to see action. I want to see the Department come up with a plan here. Ideally, in the long term, I want to see a new school on the greenfield site but in the short term, I want a reconfiguration of where the school is. There is space outside for two temporary rooms to be put in place. There may be other solutions in the Fermoy area that could also be taken into account. I ask the Minister of State to bear in mind that this is a growing school with growing demand and that this is what parents want. It is incumbent on the Department and the Government to ensure they are facilitated.

I thank Deputy Stanton for raising the issue of Fermoy Educate Together school. Individual school authorities are responsible in the first instance for ensuring the safety and welfare of children and others in their care. The configuration of classes and the deployment of classroom teachers are organised at local school level. The Department's guidance to schools is that the number of pupils in any class is kept as low as possible, taking all relevant contextual factors into account - for example, classroom accommodation and fluctuating enrolments.

I thank Deputy Stanton again for giving me the opportunity to outline the Department of Education's position in this regard. As I said, the Department has ongoing engagement with the school patron in relation to the accommodation needs of the school. A technical visit was held recently, the results of which are informing current discussions with the patron. The patron has been in contact with the ETB around accommodation arrangements in the building. I will certainly bring back the Deputy's concerns to the Minister.

Educate Together schools are very popular all over the country. I understand that when the school was put in place in 2018, as is set out in the overall report, there were terms and conditions. However, we are six years further on and I will certainly bring his concerns to the Minister, Deputy Foley.