Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 3 Jul 2024

Last Saturday week on 23 June, Canadian tourist, Neno Dolmajian, was attacked on O'Connell Street in the early hours of the morning. He was viciously beaten, sustained serious injuries and was taken to the Mater hospital. He died there yesterday with his parents and his sister at his bedside. I want to express my deepest sympathies to Mr. Dolmajian's parents, his family and friends. Neno came to Dublin to experience all the greatness of our capital city and that he did not get to go home is heartbreaking. The vicious attack that led to Mr. Dolmajian's death again highlights the hard reality that our city centre is not safe. I say this is a very proud Dubliner, and as a Dubliner who believes that this is the greatest city in the world, with the best people and the best communities. However, the truth is that Dublin city centre is scourged with antisocial behaviour, open drug dealing and consumption and by gangs that create a daily atmosphere of fear and intimidation. This remains the case seven months after a complete collapse of law and order during the Dublin riots. The Government sticking its head in the sand and declaring Dublin city centre safe does not change that reality. If you talk to anybody who works are, runs a business our lives in the inner city and they will tell you the truth, that they do not feel safe. The communities of the inner city are sick and tired of the antisocial behaviour, the sense of threat and dread, fed up with the lack of support and services and angry that Garda resources are stretched beyond imagination. In the aftermath of the Dublin riots, the Government made big promises but the truth is that it continues to fail the people of the city. All of us who live and work here and walk the streets, who grew up in Dublin, who come to visit and who love this city deserve better. Léiríonn an t-ionsaí tragóideach ar Neno Dolmajian nach bhfuil lár chathair Bhaile Átha Cliath sábháilte. Ní mór don Rialtas dúiseacht agus fíor-réitigh a thabhairt chun cinn chun fíorathrú a chur i bhfeidhm.

People need to know that they are safe in the city of Dublin at any time. That is the bare minimum people are entitled to. We need now real action from the Government. We need proper investment of resources. The first step is that the Government must acknowledge the true extent of the challenge. Pretending that everything is rosy in the garden simply will not get job done. Dublin city centre needs a proper, ongoing Garda presence of the scale necessary to meet this challenge. That means a strong, visible, daily operation to ensure that people are safe and at the centre of city is returned to the people, to those who live here, work here, who operate businesses in Dublin and those who visit our great city. The inner city must also be invested in. Communities have really felt the lack of proper investment in youth work, community development and local services. Safe and strong communities are built from the grassroots up. What is the Government's response to this latest brutality and loss of life in the main street of the capital city?

I have to begin by acknowledging that since we last met as a Dáil only yesterday, four lives have been lost on our roads. I know that communities in counties Mayo and Westmeath have been devastated by the news of this loss of life. I know that I join with everybody in this House in sending our deepest sympathies to the families of those who have died. Tragically, this brings the number of lives lost on Irish roads already this year to 97. Of course, no number can hide the reality of the personal tragedy and upset and the loss to family and friends behind each of those numbers. I wanted to acknowledge this as a stark reminder of the importance of road safety and the dangers on our roads.

I thank Deputy McDonald for raising this very important issue. I am absolutely appalled by the recent vicious attack in Dublin city centre, which resulted in the death of a young man, Neno Dolmajian. My thoughts are with his loved ones. He came here on his holidays from Montreal to, as the Deputy said, enjoy the best of our city and country. The attack was absolutely reprehensible. The Garda have already made arrests and charges in relation to this attack and therefore I am somewhat limited in what I can say on this horrific tragedy. I know that there will now be a full murder inquiry because of the loss of Neno's life yesterday. Everybody in this House is thinking of his family at this very difficult time.

I want the Deputy, the people of Dublin, the people of Ireland and anyone visiting this country to know that we take the safety of people in our city extraordinarily seriously. In many ways, that was evident last weekend when we saw so many people come to Dublin to Croke Park for GAA matches, to one of the four concerts on in different locations across the city or to partake in the Pride festival.

Thousands of people came to Dublin last weekend to enjoy our city and to do so safely. That is the Dublin I know we are all proud of and that is the Dublin we all want to protect.

On public safety, the Garda Commissioner has put significant resources into high-visibility policing in Dublin city centre and I want the Deputy to know that will continue. A very practical example of that is what happened as recently as last week as well when 157 new gardaí attest, or graduate, from Templemore Garda College. Of that 157, 102 have been assigned to policing duties in Dublin. In addition, we are very much putting our money where our mouth is in terms of the priority we attach to safety having increased the Garda overtime budget for this year compared to last year by €28 million. For people watching in at home, that is not simply extra money; it is extra money that results in very many extra hours of gardaí on the beat across our city and across towns and cities around Ireland. Specifically, Operation Irene has commenced in Dublin. It is a specific Garda operation that runs for the summer months, from June to September, across the Dublin metropolitan region. It is, as the Deputy rightly implies, a multiagency operation with the aim of identifying and preventing antisocial behaviour, combating underage alcohol consumption and the consumption of alcohol in public places and generally putting a Garda focus in the summer months specifically on antisocial behaviour. Operation Irene’s overall aim is to enhance community safety and confidence. There are more gardaí in Dublin, more garda overtime for Dublin, a new operation Irene for the summer months and also a new Dublin city centre task force, which, in fairness, the Deputy and her colleagues welcomed and which will provide the opportunity for Dublin representatives, including the Deputy, councillors, TDs and Senators to feed into what a vibrant, safe Dublin city centre looks like with a view for that task force reporting to me over the summer months.

I also extend sympathy and solidarity to the families of those precious lives that were lost in counties Mayo and Westmeath.

The fundamental problem we have here is that the Taoiseach is failing to face the actual reality on the ground, which is that there is not high-visibility policing in Dublin’s inner city. It is not there. The Taoiseach cited Pride and occasions where there are concerts and so on, which are well organised and I tip my hat to the Garda for that, but I am talking about the everyday reality of people who live in Dublin’s inner city. They will tell the Taoiseach to a man and woman that the gardaí are not visible or present and they are stretched beyond belief. They will tell him that they do not feel safe or that when there are incidents and they make that call, the response time is far too slow. That is the reality.

My colleague, Deputy O’Reilly, witnessed the aftermath of the assault on Neno Dolmajian. She was on site. She described it as utterly terrifying and horrific. That is not an isolated incident. This has happened before and this will happen again until there is a real step change in government. It is not enough for the Taoiseach to stand up and cite statistics. He has to deal with the real lived reality that the inner city is not safe and that communities living there do not feel safe. There need to be more gardaí, not simply an overtime allocation, and investment in communities. I do not see a serious approach at all from the Taoiseach or the Government. These so-called champions of law and order have left people really vulnerable and feeling very unsafe.

I suppose when you are Taoiseach rather than leader of the Opposition it is not good enough to just define the problem. You have to tell the people of Ireland the actions you are taking. Let me absolutely agree there is a huge body of work that we need to do in relation to Dublin city centre and I will tell the Deputy eight things we are doing. We are putting bodycams on our gardaí. This is a key tool in public safety and garda safety and we have started that in Dublin. Second, we have legislated to increase the sentence for assault causing harm and to increase sentencing for anyone who attacks a member of An Garda Síochána or another emergency worker. Third, this month we will bring forward more proposals from the Ministers, Deputies Donohoe and McEntee, on more efforts we can put in place to support the gardaí based on what we have heard from gardaí on the front line. Fourth, we are legislating on knife crime. That legislation was before the House yesterday. Fifth, we are providing extra money for more garda overtime. That is not a statistic. It is €28 million to fund more garda hours on the streets of our capital city and across our country. Sixth, we have established a Dublin city task force. We are willing to work with the Deputy and people across the Opposition and across Dublin to see how we can pull everybody together to see what a safe and vibrant Dublin looks like. Seventh, we have put in place Operation Irene, a specific Garda multiagency operation for the summer months to tackle antisocial behaviour. Eighth, in a very practical sense, because we need more gardaí is that we have seen 157 of them come out of Templemore last Friday and we have assigned 102 of them to Dublin. They are real practical measures.

I express my sympathy to the family of Neno Dolmajian and the families and communities of those who died so tragically on our roads. It is appalling to hear of four deaths in such a short time, bringing the total to such a horrific figure at a time we should be seeing reductions in the number of road fatalities. I join others in that.

I raise again the Government’s failure on migration policy and in particular its failure to provide adequate accommodation to those who come here seeking shelter. The most visible evidence of this failure lies along the Grand Canal in Dublin. A beautiful landscape in normal times, it is normally a real place of beauty with swans nesting. It is very tranquil and those of us who live locally are very lucky to do so. It is a route I take every day and did so just this morning. However, in recent weeks we have seen a changed landscape with the grim sight of large metal security barriers that have been in place for some weeks, which run along the canal for kilometres from Barrow Street to Portobello. It is really deliberate State vandalism of what should be a beautiful public amenity and visible evidence of the Government’s failure to provide sufficient accommodation for those who have come here seeking shelter from war and persecution. The barriers create an intimidating environment for anyone who has experienced it for anyone walking along the canal. On one side, the water and on the other, this high fence along a narrow path with no gaps for quite long distances. Many constituents have expressed deep concern and disquiet to me about feeling trapped while walking along there. Our public spaces should be safe and accessible and it is simply not good enough to see them being fenced off in this way because the Government cannot provide enough accommodation.

People want to know when the barriers will be removed and when the Government will have in place a sustainable solution to the shortage of accommodation for refugees and those seeking asylum. I have raised this with the Taoiseach on countless occasions. We still have far too many people who are left with no option but to camp in tents or under tarpaulins in exposed public spaces, on street corners and in public parks, but then they are being moved on and cleared out whenever the gathering becomes too obvious. I pay tribute to the many wonderful volunteers who are providing support, food and clothing to those who are left in such dire conditions, but this is not humane and it is not sustainable. At the same time, we see large numbers of public buildings around the Dublin city that could be repurposed. I have raised countless times the empty Baggot Street Hospital site, just a stone’s throw from the canal, which should be repurposed yet still lies empty like so many other state-owned buildings. There is a report in today’s Irish Independent that the building has been cleared out but will it be repurposed, as it should be, for use for those who need shelter? There has been a lack of joined-up thinking elsewhere. My colleague, Deputy Kelly, raised the ridiculous situation in Borrisokane, County Tipperary where settled refugees who have integrated into the local community are being asked to move out to make room for others.

When will we see a co-ordinated and sustainable approach to the accommodation of those seeking asylum? When will we see the implementation by the Government of its own report by Dr. Catherine Day and of its new comprehensive accommodation strategy for housing international protection applicants that was announced as recently as March and that envisages the development of 14,000 state-owned beds by 2028? When will we see that begin?

I thank the Deputy for raising this issue. I acknowledge it is an issue that she rightly raises on a regular basis, as one would expect, because it is a major issue and one of challenge. I assure her and the people of her constituency who are experiencing the barriers issue and the people more broadly across Ireland that we are endeavouring in real time to move from an emergency response to migration to a more sustainable model and we are having to do that in real time. I make that point because what we have seen happen in recent years in Ireland is that the numbers of people seeking refuge have very significantly increased and the systems and structures in place have to be developed around that. We are certainly not unique in this. I am just back from the European Council last week where we had a discussion on the outcome of the European elections. Whether it was a prime minister or president from a big or small country or one in the east or west, whether he or she was a socialist or conservative, every single person highlighted migration policy as the biggest policy challenge they are dealing with in their country.

I say that by way of context. The Deputy is right that we have published a comprehensive accommodation strategy for international protection applicants and that was approved by Government on 27 March. The aim here is to try to move from that emergency response and also that reliance on the private market. This idea that someone is losing the local hotel, bed and breakfast accommodation or community centre is just not good enough. The aim is to move away from that to a more sustainable model. A lot of work is under way to progress that. The first aspect of that strategy is to identify the use of State land. The Deputy will know this from public commentary but I can confirm to her today that there is a site we are currently working on in Dublin to utilise State land. I expect that to come onstream in the next number of weeks. That is going to be a very important development in being able to say to people who come to our country that we can provide them with accommodation. I have to be honest. In the first instance, it will be tented accommodation but it will be safe tented accommodation with access to sanitation, which is a marked cry from what we saw on Mount Street only a number of months ago.

I take the point about the barriers. Some barriers have been removed in certain locations. I believe some have been removed around the International Protection Office as well; I am certainly told of that. I also know there are quite a lot of barriers up. It is a matter for Waterways Ireland to decide when best to remove them and it is obviously having to balance a number of different challenges. We have seen some progress on accommodation. For example, I saw a situation regarding Charlemont Street recently where there had been tents. I am advised by International Protection Accommodation Services, IPAS, that every single person who was there has been offered accommodation. In real time, and the Deputy is good enough to acknowledge this, there are incredible people both in the voluntary sector and, I would argue, in IPAS and other units, who are working to provide accommodation solutions to people. We have seen several hundred more people provided with accommodation but none of this is easy. In conclusion, I do not think any conversation about migration can just be on accommodation. I know the Deputy shares that view. It also has to be around processing times. That is why yesterday we added five more countries to the safe country list and two more countries to the visa requirement list and why I will chair a Cabinet committee next week on migration where we will have a chance to get a further update on the comprehensive accommodation strategy. I will be happy to update the Deputy further at that stage.

I thank the Taoiseach for the response. I certainly agree with him on the need to move away from an emergency response and from a reliance on the private sector to provide accommodation for those seeking refuge, but we have seen no sign of urgency from Government on those two issues on which we agree. For far too long, we in Labour have been pressing the Taoiseach and the Government and, indeed, his predecessor as Taoiseach, to ensure that there will be a move from an emergency response, that there will be a cross-government co-ordinated approach, that the Department of integration will not be left with the entirety of the responsibility of providing shelter, and that we will see that joined-up thinking applied to the repurposing of State-owned land. I am glad to hear it is happening now but it is very late in the day. We need to see, really as a matter of urgency, the institution of the six Catherine Day sites as major reception integration centres. I am glad the Taoiseach confirmed one in Dublin will come onstream in the next few weeks. I hope that will also result in the removal of the barriers. I have been in correspondence with Waterways Ireland and its representatives have assured me they want to see the removal of the barriers too. They say they hope to start works sooner than October but they somewhat alarmingly suggested that it is unlikely they will be removed before October. Again, that is causing huge concern and disquiet. It is really not an appropriate response, particularly given that the Government had the Dr. Catherine Day report for so long and its own policy was announced in March. It is unacceptable that we are still seeing people camping in tents, being forced to stay in public spaces and then the fencing off of public spaces by way of response from Government. It is just not a sustainable response.

I agree that this is not sustainable. There is no one in this House, and I doubt there is anyone in Waterways Ireland, who would not like to see the barriers removed. It just needs to be done in a way that is safe. I am conscious that Waterways Ireland is having to monitor that. A whole variety of safety issues need to be considered. We are seeing some examples around the country of where we are moving from the emergency response. As a result of policy changes in respect of Ukraine, and as a result of the numbers of people coming from Ukraine significantly reducing, we have, for example, seen 49 contracts with hotels ended. We have seen contracts with more than 100 bed and breakfasts ended. If I take County Kerry as an example, we have seen hotels in Killarney and in Dingle that were being used, are now not being used for providing that accommodation. In County Galway, six contracts ended, and in Dublin, eight contracts ended. These are important changes as we move away from the model of taking whatever we can obtain. That is not a good value-for-money model. It is not a good model for social cohesion. I fully agree we need to see a public model. I promise the Deputy that there is absolutely no question in the wide earthly world of any one Minister or Department being left on their own on this. I am personally chairing the Cabinet committee on migration. I am personally invested in this as Head of Government. It requires a whole-of-government approach. That is why we will have a further Cabinet committee meeting on migration next week to progress these matters.

Neno Dolmajian, a 41-year-old Canadian tourist died yesterday from his injuries sustained during an attack on O'Connell Street last week. God rest him and deepest sympathies to his family and friends. Last year, in this country, murders nearly doubled. Robberies, extortion and hijacking offences increased by 18%. Juvenile crime levels increased massively last year as well with increases in theft, robbery, fraud and sexual offences by teenagers. Domestic abuse cases are at a 50-year high in this country, with 40,000 cases reported last year. I held a public meeting in County Meath on the issue of crime recently. Women who work in the retail sector told me that if they catch children shoplifting, they are often threatened that they will be raped as they walk home if they go to An Garda Síochána. These women no longer feel safe walking to and from their place of work and now get lifts directly to the door.

Ireland had the highest level of drug deaths in the EU last year. Indeed, the drug fatality rate in Ireland is four times the European average at the moment. Ireland is becoming a dangerous place and there is hardly a street in a town or a city where people are not living in fear. This is not happening by accident. The Government is soft on crime and is soft on the causes of crime. Last week, the country was rightly up in arms regarding the shocking treatment of Natasha O'Brien. People are furious with the suspended sentence that was handed down to her attacker. The Taoiseach called for a zero-tolerance approach to gender-based violence. The Minister for Justice even stated that she will not tolerate any form of domestic or sexual violence in future. However, this is cynical nonsense. Not only does the Government tolerate this level of crime, but Government policies are directly responsible for the increase in lawlessness in this country.

Let us just look at the issue of sentencing. The Minister for Justice admitted to me in a parliamentary question reply that there has been a doubling in the proportion of appeals due to undue leniency in the courts system in the past eight years. Some 22% of all appeals in 2016 were for undue lenience. Last year, 42% of all appeals in the courts systems were for undue leniency. Sentences in this country are becoming more lenient and that is a staggering change. I have no doubt that the prison system being stuffed has an influence over the sentencing that has happened. The Minister for Justice also admitted to me that the prisons are radically overcrowded. She admitted to me that in just two years the numbers of prisoners who are four to a cell has increased fourfold. The number of prisoners who are three to a cell has doubled. The prisons are so full that the Minister admitted to me she is carefully selecting criminals to release early to make space for more criminals to be put in. That is stated in black and white in a reply to a parliamentary question I have from her. The Taoiseach states the sentencing is a responsibility for the judges but not all the time. Legislation can be created to set minimum custodial sentences for violent and sexual crimes but the Government is allergic to the setting of minimal custodial sentences in law. The Government could also strengthen the Garda force, which is on the floor at the moment. When will the Government take the issue of crime and antisocial behaviour seriously?

We take it extraordinarily seriously. The Deputy's constant misrepresentation of the position of the Minister for Justice, time and time again, and indeed some of his commentary on some of the changes she has tried to make and the introduction of wokery into public debate, has certainly not helped, quite frankly. If we are deadly serious about creating a zero-tolerance approach to domestic, sexual and gender-based violence, it would be important that Members in this House have the courage to bring about some of the legislative changes that are required in that space. I wish to again reiterate my absolute sympathy to the family of Neno on the most horrific tragedy that has been encountered. I confirm to this House that an active Garda murder inquiry is under way. Indeed, a number of individuals have already been arrested as well.

I agree with the Deputy on one important point. I am concerned about the increased prevalence of violence that we are seeing in Irish society. Shortly after Leaders' Questions today we will have statements on domestic, sexual and gender-based violence. There are a number of very serious issues that we need to address, some of which I have heard the Deputy speak passionately about before, including issues with pornography, lack of sex education and how young men are experiencing these issues rather than being informed in a scientific evidence-based way. A lot needs to be done in that space.

I want people watching at home to know that contrary to his characterisation of this Government's position on law and order, this is a Government that has constantly supported garda recruitment. It is a Government that has seen 157 more gardaí graduate from Templemore as recently as last week. It is a Government that despite Covid having closed the Garda college not once but twice, has put a real focus on this. This month we will bring forward our proposals based on what we have heard from front-line gardaí regarding what more we can do to help with recruitment and retention.

We do not have enough prison capacity. That is not by the way meaning that we need to see an increase in incarceration rates. Simply from a population point of view, we do not have enough prison capacity which is why the Minister has received approval to expand prison capacity further. She has done very important work on that. It is why we have put bodycams on gardaí. I was there at the start of that process with the Minister, Deputy McEntee, when they were rolled out in Dublin. It is why we are changing laws on knife crime and why we have changed sentencing for assault causing harm. We are taking absolute action and there is nothing cynical at all about the Minister's commitment to tackling domestic, sexual and gender-based violence. Even her most ardent opponents would acknowledge that this is an area on which she has placed an incredible focus and shown huge political leadership often in the face of unfair criticism of her on occasion which should be called out for what it is.

I think there is a disconnect between the Taoiseach's rhetoric and the reality on the ground. For people listening to this debate, it is like he is talking about an alternative universe in many ways. I heard him talk about another task force. There is nearly a Father Ted element to that - is there anything to be said for another task force on this? There is something to be said about actually employing more gardaí. This is the major problem and unless it is fixed, the problem will increase. Garda numbers have been at their lowest per capita in the last five years. We have one of the lowest memberships of a police force per capita in the whole of the European Union. Gardaí are retiring and resigning more than they are being recruited at the moment and in some months, resignations even make up the majority of gardaí who are leaving the force.

The Taoiseach mentioned the horrific deaths on the roads. I have brought up the fact that five years ago, well over 1,000 gardaí were policing the roads and now it is fewer than 600. If we do not have the gardaí to enforce the laws, behaviours will change, there will be more accidents and more people will lose their lives. The collapse in the number of gardaí has had a massive effect in making our streets and our town squares less safe over the last while. There is no doubt in my mind that unless we deal with the sentencing and prison spaces, more people will get off scot-free with lenient sentences for violent sexual assaults in future and that must change.

Let me start and see where I can agree with the Deputy. We need more gardaí; that is a statement of fact. That is why we are putting a huge focus on Garda recruitment and retention. He will also see more measures from us this month on that. Regarding roads policing, I have met the Garda Commissioner and the assistant Garda commissioner with responsibility for roads policing and of course I have met the Minister for Justice. I have personally chaired two meetings of the ministerial road safety committee. This year we will see an increase in roads-policing gardaí. There has also been a direction from the Commissioner regarding a focus on roads policing. We also know that killer behaviours on the roads need to change. You should not need a garda to tell you not to drink and drive. You should not need a garda to tell you not to take drugs and drive. You should not need a garda to tell you not to speed.

Let us not just say everything is down to the gardaí. When getting behind the wheel of a car, we all have individual important responsibilities.

The second issue on which I agree with the Deputy is the issue of sentencing. While we might not agree on how we get there, we have set up the Judicial Council under the Judicial Council Act 2019. A body of work is currently under way on sentencing guidelines. The first area they are looking at on sentencing guidelines is in the area of domestic violence. Those sentencing guidelines are due to be in place before the end of this year. The second area they are looking to establish sentencing guidelines is in the area of fatal driving offences.

The horticulture industry was worth an estimated €566 million in 2023. The industry covers a broad and diverse range, including mushrooms, potatoes, field crops, protected fruit and vegetables, outdoor soft and top fruit, hardy nursery stock, protected crops, Christmas trees, cut foliage, outdoor flowers, bulbs and turf grass. However, Ireland imports approximately 85% of our fruit and vegetables and possibly over 60% of our other plants needlessly at some risk to our country considering the potential impact of importing deadly pests and diseases. Recent examples have been ash dieback and sudden oak death which are causing havoc in our rural and urban landscapes, forestry, wood and our woodland industries.

For such a vital industry with such prospects, why is the industry not growing? Considering that we import so much, why have the Government and previous Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael Governments done little or nothing to protect the industry? Possibly the most important element to the industry is its people. Operatives, managers and entrepreneurs are the heart of horticulture as with most industries. Attracting people to industries of vital national importance is surely part of a government's remit? However, our education system fills courses with students who may never find work in the areas they are studying. Industries like horticulture are stagnating without new Irish people to lead it with the numbers of students in horticulture nationally in a steady decline.

Would the Taoiseach agree that industry is only as good as the people who lead it? Would he agree that the better equipped those people are with, for example, education, the better the chance they will have to innovate and grow the industry, providing jobs, tax revenue and solutions to vital food and biodiversity security, and reducing carbon miles? What are the Government's plans for the horticulture industry and horticulture education nationally?

Not so long ago I brought to the Taoiseach's attention in this House the case of a vital level 5 ETB horticulture course in Skibbereen that Cork ETB plans to discontinue. However, that course has more applicants normal for this time of year - it gets most applicants in August and September. The ETB claims not to have viable numbers after sending people away from doing the course, even though people want to do it. One wonders why. Is it rationalisation or perhaps making life easy for administrators? What can be more important than the sustainability and viability of our country? At a time when vital sustainable industries that can help reduce climate change impacts are so needed, why are we shutting down vital horticultural courses? The industry is crying out for people.

Is there anyone at the helm of the ship on education and the direction of the industries of this country? Even other Departments are investigating education in horticulture at present, as it is affecting the potential of the industry. Can career guidance in secondary schools be used to explain how important the industry is? Can horticulture be prioritised as a vital sector to fast-track industry development and replace carbon costly imports? Can the Taoiseach see to it that proper investment be made in promoting and supporting horticulture education in Ireland and that the level 5 course in horticulture in Skibbereen be reinstated with immediate effect?

I thank Deputy Collins for raising this important matter. I note he raised the issue of the horticulture course in Skibbereen with me previously in this House. I have done a bit of research on which I will engage with him in a moment. There is huge importance in investing in talent and in our people. We need to have an education system that has multiple pathways for people to reach their full potential. For some people that will be university. For some people that will be our education and training boards. For some people it will be a combination of both. For some people it will be in-work training. For some people it will be the apprenticeship or traineeship model. There was a rigidity to our education system in years gone by, which we need to challenge. I think there is a political consensus on that.

I was honoured to be the first Minister for further and higher education. There was a lot of work going on in that space and it is a very can-do sector. I agree with the Deputy on that. I also agree with him on the importance of horticulture. His diagnosis of the challenge is right. We need to be able to do a hell of a lot more in this country because it makes sense from a variety of areas economically but also from the point of view of the green agenda, climate change and sustainability. All the figures will show the Deputy that we are absolutely expanding the number of education courses across the country. We are expanding the funding to ETBs and the number of people going. All these things are beyond dispute and beyond question. I can produce any amount of data to show that the third level sector is growing in every dimension.

However, the Deputy is right that there seems to be a particular issue with this horticulture course. I would be happy to engage further on this. I made inquiries and my note tells me something different from what the Deputy outlined, as he may not be surprised to hear. I will share with him what I have been told.

The Department of further and higher education made inquiries with Cork Education and Training Board and I was told that the ETB has decided to remove its offering of the course for the academic year 2024-25 as it is not considered to be viable based on the low level of applications to date. The horticulture post-leaving certificate level 5 course offered in Skibbereen under the auspices of the Morrison's Island campus of the Cork College of Further Education and Training has seen enrolments and course completions fall consistently over the past number of years. The ETB tells me it needs to have a level of demand for any course to determine its schedule of courses and making the most effective use of its college. It is saying it does not currently believe there is a level sufficient to support a class group and it is therefore not possible for any provider, including the ETB, to meet that demand. The Deputy is giving me different data, which I am not disputing. I am happy to see that and for my office to engage directly with Cork ETB. There can only be one set of figures. There cannot be two versions of the truth.

On the horticulture sector more broadly, there is now a horticultural apprenticeship programme that has recently been developed for the first time, with Teagasc. This is an important part of what the Deputy rightly asks about how we encourage more people to come into horticulture. It is by providing apprenticeship routes and pathways. The point the Deputy makes about promoting horticulture as a career is something I am happy to talk about with our agencies and revert to the Deputy in writing.

I thank the Taoiseach for his reply. He says we may have different data and that is maybe something we can engage on. I look forward to engaging with him on this issue. However, he should remember one thing. The course deadline for applicants is September. A decision seems to have been made between March and June by the ETB, with little or no consultation with the people on the ground. How can it make a decision on how many people are going? People are contacting me saying they are interested and they are sorry when they see on social media that it is closing. They then contact local media. There is an issue here. The ETB made a decision at an early stage to pull this, and it is not giving that opportunity. Remember, it is Skibbereen. We can talk about Morrison's island. If you talk to people in Castletownbere, the Beara Peninsula or the Sheep's Head Peninsula, in Skibbereen, Bantry and the surrounds, and ask young people to go to Cork city every day to do a course, they cannot afford to do that. It is a crazy situation. The ETB is closing it quite simply because of its geographical position. That is why it is closing it. Everyone on the ground in west Cork will tell you that. It has been allowed to make that decision. I got on to the Minister of State, Deputy O'Donovan, who has come back to me with the ETB spin. I do not want the ETB spin. I want the human spin. There is a horticultural course that was available to people in Skibbereen that will be closed down. Will the Taoiseach intervene and make sure that does not happen?

I will certainly undertake to look into it because I know a little about it from my time in that Department. I was down in the Cork College of Further Education and Training and made aware of the horticultural course. I am trying to remember if I visited the actual facility in Skibbereen. I am not sure. I could have, because I was involved in a number of discussions about horticulture in Cork and I know there was a general level of excitement about the education and training programmes which saw a benefit to the regional and local economy.

In the first instance, I will relay the Deputy's concerns to the Minister of State, Deputy O'Donovan, and ask that he re-engage with Cork ETB on this. I will put to the ETB the Deputy's view that the decision is premature and there is more interest coming than it perhaps know. Let us ascertain that and see if that is borne out. I could also maybe ask the regional skills forums for the south-west region to have a look at course provision. I am conscious, when we talk about Cork in Dublin, that it is a big county. I am conscious that the idea of asking somebody to move from west Cork to Cork city is not viable. Let me take a further look at it and come back to the Deputy.