Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 20 Jun 2024

I understand the question is grouped with a number of questions from Deputy Brendan Smith who would have raised questions with the Minister about the Ballyhaise and Castletara areas being included in the CLÁR area. The Deputy is held up with the Good Friday committee meeting at this stage but I ask that the Minister might be able to address those points. In particular, I want to raise with the Minister the possibility of changing the application process for the CLÁR measure 1 applications as residents in larger counties feel that the current scheme, as it is constituted with a maximum of 15 applicants per county, is placing people in CLÁR areas in the larger counties at a disadvantage.

I propose to take Questions Nos. 39 , 41 and 46 together.

My Department's CLÁR scheme is a targeted investment programme that provides funding for small-scale infrastructural projects in rural areas that experience disadvantage and significant levels of depopulation. This scheme has gone from strength to strength in recent years. Under the 2023 scheme, I approved over €13 million for 303 projects. This is the largest allocation under the scheme since it was reintroduced in 2016.

The 2024 CLÁR programme was launched on 12 April last. There are three separate measures being funded this year.

Measure 1 of the scheme will fund the development of community facilities and amenities. This a broad measure designed to facilitate the different needs in different CLÁR areas, be that the need for community gardens, an AstroTurf pitch or the upgrade of the local youth centre. Applications for this measure are received through each local authority and the closing date for receipt of applications under this measure was yesterday, 19 June. Measure 2 covers the purchase and fit-out of vehicles for voluntary groups providing transport for people with mobility issues, transport for cancer care, first responders and meals on wheels. The closing date for this measure has now passed and I hope to make an announcement of the successful applications in quarter 3 of this year. Measure 3 was put in place to provide opportunities directly for projects located on the islands in line with my Department's islands policy. This provides funding for community amenities and community-based transport projects. The closing date for applications under this measure was also yesterday, 19 June.

In advance of the launch of the CLÁR programme each year, I review the measures to be included in the scheme and make any adjustments to the application process as appropriate. For example, this year I have included support for meals-on-wheels services under measure 2 of the scheme.

With regard to the selection of CLÁR areas, I advise the Deputy that the areas originally selected for inclusion in the programme in 2001 were those which suffered the greatest level of population decline from 1926 to 1996. The average population loss in the original CLÁR areas over the period 1926 to 1996 was 50%.

In 2006, an analysis of the 2002 Census data was carried out by Maynooth University and the programme was extended to include areas with an average population loss of 35% between 1926 and 2002.

A national review of CLÁR areas was subsequently undertaken in 2021 using the 2016 Census of population data. From the review it is clear that many areas have seen population growth in the relevant period rather than decline and, indeed, the most recent census data published by the Central Statistics Office points to further population growth across all counties since 2016.

The details of the review continue to be considered by my Department. In addition, the implications of the latest Census data would need to be evaluated before any decisions are made in relation to changing areas eligible for funding under the CLÁR programme. I believe that the current designation has served us well and I do not want to make changes unless they add value to the scheme.

Furthermore, we need to also consider the context in which CLÁR now operates. I have developed a suite of supports for communities in rural areas so that there are a range of different funding options available to rural communities, be they in CLÁR areas or otherwise. These include the town and village renewal scheme, the outdoor recreation infrastructure scheme and the community recognition fund, to name a few. The community recognition fund has only been in existence for just over a year and already has a budget of €100 million.

Many of these targeted funding schemes are administered through the local authority network. It is a matter for the local authorities to engage and collaborate with communities with a view to maximising the potential funding in areas, taking account of the various funds available throughout the year. They are well placed to assess the need locally.

Other schemes, such as the community centres investment fund, involve direct application to my Department by community groups. I opened a new round of that funding only last week and it has full national coverage.

While I will continue to review the operation of the scheme and the application process each year, I believe the current model has served us well and is delivering for our most rural areas. Since the programme was relaunched in 2016, the CLÁR programme has provided funding under a range of different targeted measures. Since 2016, funding of over €70 million has been provided to support almost 2,400 projects nationwide. Included in this figure is funding of almost €4.2 million for County Cork, which has seen the delivery of 130 different projects. I assure the Deputies of my ongoing commitment to rural Ireland through the CLÁR programme. I look forward to announcing the successful projects under this year’s scheme in the coming months.

The CLÁR scheme, without doubt, has been a successful scheme. It is giving real meaningful assistance to so many community groups.

There are difficulties with the application process. As it is 15 applications per county, irrespective of how many CLÁR communities one's country covers, it means that the larger counties feel disadvantaged in it.

If one takes a snapshot of last year's allocations, in County Cork, 11 schemes were approved with €456,000, even though it does not cover all of the Cork county. A similar CLÁR area would be the counties of Leitrim, Roscommon and Sligo combined. Leitrim had seven applications totalling €301,000; Roscommon, eight; and Sligo, seven. Between them, €800,000 was distributed across 22 schemes. This was double what was available in County Cork in much the same area. Right next door to them in County Mayo is another large CLÁR area, with only four applications approved and €177,000 distributed across them. That is in contrasts with County Louth where only the Cooley Peninsula would be part of the CLÁR area and where six schemes were approved, getting €254,000. Clearly, there is an imbalance. That needs to be addressed.

The CLÁR scheme works extremely well. It depends on how much of one's country is allocated in CLÁR as well. We can compare one set of figures with different county sizes. I appreciate Cork is a big county. The number of projects approved in Cork since 2016 was 130 and they got funding of €4.184 million. I do not have the map of what areas in Cork are designated as CLÁR but some counties have a lot more CLÁR areas because they had a great deal more population decline. That is why they have a bigger CLÁR area. It depends how many applications the local authorities send in as well. It depends on what they look for too. We try to be as fair as we can here. We try to allocate the resources that we have in the best way that we can. It goes through an assessment process within my Department.

Capping the application numbers at 15 per county irrespective of the size of the CLÁR area in the county is not equitable right across the country. There are large counties. I gave the example of County Cork. County Mayo, for example, which would have a very large CLÁR area, with four applications approved, got €177,000 in contrast to its neighbours, counties Leitrim, Roscommon and Sligo, where 22 communities were approved, which got €800,000 in a similar geographical area of CLÁR. There is an imbalance in the way the scheme is distributing the funding.

It seems to start, and many communities locally will raise this, with the fact that only 15 applications can go in from every county, irrespective of how big a CLÁR area is or how many CLÁR communities are being served. It is an aspect that needs to be reviewed and examined so that people feel there is a more equitable system and that being in a larger county does not disadvantage them further, where they have already experienced disadvantage in respect of CLÁR.

People get caught up on certain schemes. Substantial funding is also being provided to County Cork under a range of other schemes operated by my Department. Since 2020, €5.7 million has gone to Cork under the town and village scheme, and €32.3 million has been allocated to Cork under the rural regeneration scheme in the same period. Cork was allocated €3.4 million in 2023 and €3.2 million in 2024 under the community recognition fund; €4.7 million has been allocated to 96 refurbishment projects in Cork under the community investment fund; €1.6 million was allocated to one new-build project in Rylane; €16.8 million was allocated across the three LEADER areas in Cork; and €4.1 million was allocated to Cork projects under the outdoor recreation scheme. Cork is not losing out. I hear what the Deputy is saying. I appreciate he has to make the case for his county, but I have to look at it in the round. I hear what the Deputy is saying, however.

Tá mé ag dul ar ais arís go cúrsaí na n-oileán. An uair seo, is mian liom tagairt a dhéanamh d’Inis Oírr agus Inis Meáin. Tá mé ag lorg eolais faoin choiste monatóireachta atá ann chun a chinntiú go mbeidh an obair atá ag teastáil déanta. I return to the issue of the islands. It is Inis Oírr and Inis Meáin this time, and the steering committee that has been set up to monitor progress on the essential works that need to be carried out on two piers, one on each island.

I thank the Deputy for raising this matter again. As the Deputy is aware, Galway County Council is the responsible authority for the maintenance and development of pier infrastructure on the Aran Islands, including on Inis Oírr and Inis Meáin. There are regular meetings between officials from my Department and Galway County Council to discuss and monitor the pier development on both these islands. The last meeting was held earlier this week on Tuesday, 18 June, and the next meeting is scheduled for 16 July.

The Deputy will recall that I gave approval to Galway County Council in July 2023 to issue a request for tender for the development of the Inis Oírr pier. Galway County Council is the contracting authority and is, therefore, responsible for all aspects of the procurement process. I am advised that Galway County Council has extended the closing date for receipt of stage 2 tender responses by four weeks, to mid-August. The assessment and evaluation of all valid tender responses will be carried out by Galway County Council and should take approximately two months. Subject to the successful completion of this procurement process, it is expected that a contractor will be appointed later this year.

Regarding pier developments on Inis Meáin, my Department recently gave approval to Galway County Council to proceed to tender for the appointment of consultant engineers to develop the preliminary business case, incorporating a strategic assessment, for marine infrastructure improvement options at Inis Meáin. The draft tender document prepared by Galway County Council was discussed at the meeting held this week and is expected to be published on eTenders next month.

My Department and Galway County Council agree that there will be clear engagement with island representatives and the independent consultants to be appointed, ensuring that the entire community has input into the process. My Department will continue to engage with Galway County Council to ensure these projects are progressed as quickly as possible.

I thank the Minister for her answer and the clarification that the steering committee is meeting regularly, including that it met on 18 June and will meet again on 16 July. I know the Minister realises why we needed an islands policy and an implementation plan. We also urgently need legislation ensuring that rights given to the islanders are all based on legislation. We are left with - I will not call it a circus - this interchange on a regular basis for essential infrastructure on both islands. Phases 1 and 2 at Caladh Mór pier on Inis Meáin were completed in 2008. We are looking at a preliminary business case and assessment for the third phase, which is absolutely essential. The lack of infrastructure is interfering with cargo ships coming in and businesses on the island.

I welcome the progress in respect of Inis Oírr. That project commenced 20 years ago. We are now in 2024 but we finally have a date, later this year, for when the contractor will be engaged. I welcome that.

I visited the pier at Caladh Mór and saw the issues there. People tried to fix it years ago but trying to find the right solution has been difficult. We have gone through a long process. I am happy to try to do what I can on my side but Galway County Council also has a responsibility. My officials and Galway County Council officials continue to liaise and meet regularly on this matter. Both sets of officials are cognisant of the concerns of the residents of Inis Meáin.

My Department has given the go-ahead to the county council to proceed to tender to develop the preliminary business case. This includes the strategic assessment to look at all possible options for providing safe harbour facilities on Inis Meáin. The process must be completed in accordance with the Government's infrastructure guidelines and public expenditure requirements published in December 2023. I understand that the draft tender documents were reviewed by officials from my Department and Galway County Council earlier this week. The request for tender is due to be published on eTenders in July. I expect that consultants could be appointed and start work on this by the end of the year.

The work was stopped for economic reasons. The briefing given by the Department in 2020 was that phase 3 did not go ahead due to the economic downturn. We are now looking again at phase 3. There was a delay because it had to go to the National Maritime College of Ireland and all of that. If the Minister thinks my frustration is bad, she should be at some of the meetings where there is frustration and anger on the delay with this pier. There are also concerns about another pier. I understand that is all being looked at now.

I again welcome the fact there is a date for the appointment of a contractor for the Inis Oírr project. I presume, and am taking it as said, there is no problem with allocation of funding at this point. Does the Minister have any idea of completion dates for the céibh on Inis Oírr?

Regarding Inis Oírr, in July I gave approval to issue a request for tender. The first stage has been completed. Stage 2 of the tender process was posted on 8 April. The closing date for receipt of all documentation is set for 12 July. However, Galway County Council has advised my Department that a four-week extension has been given, meaning the new date is 9 August. The assessment of the tenders, when received, should take approximately two months. I am very keen to have this completed so that we will be in a position to appoint a contractor later in the year.

This question concerns the establishment and work of community councils throughout the country. I am sure the Minister of State will agree that these are a very valuable and important resource, which are very often administered under the umbrella of Muintir na Tíre. What are his plans to support the establishment and continue the work of these bodies, especially if they are democratically established and run? The training for people to get involved in these councils is part of that.

I thank the Deputy for his question relating to plans to support the establishment and continued support of community councils throughout the country. A number of community council groups are established across the country. My Department has provided support to these organisations under a number of schemes. A range of other community development entities are also in place right across the country. All such groups can apply for funding from a range of schemes operated by my Department.

I also note the importance of the structures that are in place to ensure local engagement in community development. The local community development committees were established with the objective of putting people and communities at the centre of delivery at local government level. A key function of the LCDCs is to prepare the community elements of the six-year local economic and community plans. The LECPs also outline how each local authority plan can foster community involvement in policy development and decision-making processes at local level.

Public participation networks, PPNs, provide another layer of community participation in local community development by building a network of community, voluntary, social inclusion and environmental groups to inform local government policy and priorities. I am aware that a number of PPNs have community council groups as members, which ensures their voice is heard as regards community development priorities.

On the issue of funding, community council groups have obtained funding from schemes such as LEADER, CLÁR, the community centre investment fund and the community recognition fund. I also note that the various iterations of the community enhancement programme have provided funding opportunities at local level to groups such as community councils. I encourage all community groups to regularly engage with their PPN, their LCDC and our website, which details available funding options, to ensure they are aware of all opportunities.

I thank the Minister of State for his response. Does he agree that there does not seem to be a clear policy with respect to community councils at, dare I say it, parish level? We are talking about LCDCs, which are at the level of the county or municipal district. Does he agree that we need to start drilling down to more localised bodies and looking at supporting those?

Does he have any idea of whether there are areas in the country where there is no community involvement, movement or organisation at all? Does he agree that these communities are suffering because of it, or are at least not benefiting from the advantages of having a community council in place? When such councils are active and working properly, they are of great benefit at a very local level. In the Minister of State's response, he spoke about high-level groups but I am talking about really drilling down to the parish level and supporting the establishment and work of these groups in light of the benefits that can accrue. If they are registered as companies, they can draw down funding themselves and put things like playgrounds, local community halls and so on in place. Do we need to be more focused?

I take the Deputy's point on the position of the LCDCs. They are at a fairly high level. I will take the opportunity to again encourage small groups to join the local PPN because, when they are in there, they have a pass into what the local authority has available. I refer to staff and training but also the grants I mentioned with which we support them. I will also mention the volunteer centres. I mention them because they very often pair people with people who want to volunteer with a local group, particularly at board level. Volunteer centres have a bank of expertise and are very happy to link people with small local groups. I take the Deputy's point that there are likely to be pockets around the country where there is no self-organising group. We operate on the basis of letting people take the initiative. If people have come together and taken some initiative, we are in a position to support them. In my follow-up, I will tell the Deputy a little bit more about what we are doing where that has not happened.

It may very well be that the very areas the Minister of State has mentioned are those that need the most support. If small local groups are already established, they are well on their way to drawing down grants, supports and so on. Does he agree that where there is nothing at all and where there is no local initiative, we need to put a structure in place whereby somebody goes into an area to encourage and support the proper democratic establishment of, for example, a community council at a very small local level? The benefits of such councils are massive. On top of that, some of the community councils in place are struggling to get people to take part and do the work, especially after the Covid pandemic. Will the Minister of State consider carrying out a national audit of parishes and areas to see where there are what he has called black spots, areas that do not have these structures, with a view to encouraging the local LCDC or another body to set them up?

In many respects, we have done what the Deputy is describing, albeit in a different way. The audit we have done is based on the CSO's small area population data. This is at the level of a large estate or a couple of hundred houses. We have based our audit not on what groups are in the area, but on socioeconomic deprivation. Two years ago, I launched the empowering communities programme. That targeted 14 of the most deprived areas across the country and placed a community worker in them, partly with a view to helping the community to organise itself. I hope to add two more to that list in the coming weeks. With regard to what we do in the Department, that is the closest we have got. I would like to expand that. There are many areas of deprivation around the country that do not self-organise and need a bit of support. Of the tools we have in the Department, that is the most relevant to the issue the Deputy has raised.

This question has to do with funding being made available by the Department but not being drawn down or only being drawn down after an awfully long time while costs increase dramatically in the meantime. I have highlighted one particular case with the Minister but there are many projects on the Department's desk where funding has been made available but has not been drawn down yet. What is going to happen in respect of these projects?

As the Deputy will be aware, the RRDF is a strategic capital investment fund that is key to the delivery of Ireland's rural development policy, Our Rural Future. The Youghal public library project was awarded funding of just over €4 million under the third call for category 1 proposals to the fund in 2021. The project will renovate and extend derelict buildings and a site on Youghal's North Main Street to provide a new library and revitalised streetscape.

Since the funding was approved in 2021, the condition of the building has deteriorated further and some fundamental structural issues relating to internal floors have come to light. Cork County Council is carrying out works to rectify this issue and is providing the funding to complete these preliminary remedial works, which are expected to be completed by the end of the summer. Following the completion of these initial works, the council will tender for the construction contract to deliver the library project.

It is in the nature of large-scale ambitious capital projects that unforeseen issues can sometimes arise that must be rectified before a project can progress. My officials are in ongoing contact with the council to ensure the project progresses as efficiently as possible. The amount of funding drawn down for the project to date is €224,642. Further drawdowns are expected over the remainder of the year with the bulk of the funding to be drawn down in 2025 and 2026. It is estimated that the project will be completed in the fourth quarter of 2026.

Given the benefits this project can deliver to the community in Youghal, I have requested my officials to remain in ongoing contact with Cork County Council to support the delivery of this very important project.

I thank the Minister for her response. I am glad this project is moving forward. If funding was granted in 2021 and it will not be ready until 2026, that is quite a while to wait. I understand that there are structural issues.

The second question I asked was whether there are many other such projects in the Department where funding was granted quite a considerable while ago but where it has not been drawn down and may not be drawn down at all. What happens in those cases? Is there a time limit? If nothing is happening, is the money reallocated? If so, is it reallocated in the same region or does it go back into the Department's general budget? What goes on?

When I allocate money to projects, the one thing I want to see is that it is spent. We engage regularly with the local authorities. I have to be honest here; some local authorities are excellent at getting funding, drawing it down and delivering projects and some are not quite as efficient with that process. We speak to local authorities regularly. I will tell any Deputies here who know of projects that are not moving on in their local authority areas that it is not because we are not giving them the money but because something has happened. In fairness, difficulties sometimes arise that were not anticipated but I think the work could sometimes be done more quickly. Every time I meet local authority chief executives, I impress upon them the need to spend the money. I have gone so far as to say that, if the money is not being spent, it will be taken into consideration when I am allocating further funding. I do not like taking it back because I am then faced with a barrage of questions from local Deputies as to why the money is being taken away from such a good project. The Deputy will know that it can be difficult at times but I do keep the pressure on.

I agree with the Deputy that sometimes when projects are delayed the cost increases. There is no doubt about that. We look at them and if there are genuine reasons and it can be shown the costs have increased, we help out because we want to see these projects delivered. They are very important. The Youghal project is a public library and we know how important public libraries are. I have been to the one in Kinsale. It is a fabulous library. It has been delivered and is open and working. It is a great job. It is expected Cork County Council will submit a request for additional funding when the tender is complete and the final costs confirmed. The current estimate will be requested. I do not want to give out figures here because sometimes it can have an impact on the tender process. Officials are engaging with Cork County Council to progress this project. We do not have an unlimited supply of money. We have a quantity surveyor and we ensure what projects get is going to be spent and stands up to scrutiny. We are in the business of working with local authorities and of getting projects delivered, but we must ensure it is done in a way that is responsible. This is taxpayers' money at the end of the day.

I propose to take Questions Nos. 52 and 62 together.

My Department operates a range of programmes and schemes that support and assist urban and rural community groups throughout the country. The range of targeted investments and supports offered by my Department fund a wide range of initiatives that help promote rural regeneration, town and village regeneration, outdoor recreation, regional enterprise growth and social inclusion. Capital schemes including the town and village renewal scheme, LEADER, the rural regeneration and development fund, the local improvement scheme, the outdoor recreation infrastructure scheme, the community recognition fund and the community centre investment fund are delivering projects throughout the country. The emphasis of the 2023 to 2027 LEADER programme, which builds on the many successful previous programmes, will include the continued development of the rural economy. There will also be a strong focus on building the capacity of marginalised and new communities, particularly in areas that have not benefited from LEADER financial support in the past.

On Friday last I was delighted to announce a further €20 million in funding to support our community groups to upgrade and refurbish the community facilities in their areas. That is open for applications now. The community centre investment fund 2024 refurbishment grant will provide funding from €10,000 up to a maximum of €100,000 towards capital costs. This allocation brings the total amount of funding announced to support the development of community centres to in excess of €95 million since 2022. The community centre investment fund, whether for existing or new centres, has proven to be extremely popular. Current funding supports such as the social inclusion and community activation programme and the community services programme are helping to tackle social exclusion, unemployment, promote social cohesion and support thriving communities.

The schemes administered by my Department are regularly reviewed and, where necessary, adapted and supplemented in response to emerging needs.

I thank the Minister for her reply. Naturally, the question refers to the whole country, where I appreciate there are many challenging issues. There are questions of integration that need to be looked at carefully. Questions of social exclusion, or attempts at social exclusion, need to be looked at in particular. While I am obviously concerned about the whole country, I have a soft spot for County Kildare, and especially north Kildare; Kildare North is my constituency. I compliment the Minister on her success and innovative values in dealing with the situation as it presents itself. Especially in the coming year, areas to be targeted should in the first instance be ones that need a particular assistance now so the immediate problem can be dealt with. That affects areas with new Irish and other areas, be they urban or rural communities, that can be socially deprived, economically deprived or have a range of people in them who are especially vulnerable.

I thank the Deputy. We have the community recognition fund. It is a fund responding to help communities that have taken in a lot of immigrants. They have facilitated them and worked well with them. I was delighted phase 2 of the Newbridge Family Resource Centre extension of the community building got €440,000 in 2023. Kildare has been allocated €830,000, which brings the total funding under the fund to more than €1.6 million. That is an important fund. It is a rolling fund, so it is important applications are got in.

Under the local enhancement programme, the Kildare LCDC received an allocation of €208,000, of which €34,749 was ring-fenced for women's groups. Some 54 projects were approved for funding under the main local enhancement programme with 14 women's groups also approved. These are small grants. They are not a lot, but they are small grants that make a difference. I see McAuley Place in Naas got €1,879 for painting. It might not seem a lot, but it is a lot to those people when they get their grants. I have been out to many communities and been able to meet them first-hand and these small amounts help them. The community service programme currently supports six organisations in County Kildare. There are four managers and 16.5 full-time equivalents. They are being supported with contract values for 2024 of €537,762. Again, these are all important supports to communities. The Deputy is right they need the money not after the problem has developed further, but when the problem has arisen. I accept his point.

I am glad the Minister mentioned McAuley Place, which is in my constituency, and Newbridge, which is in the Cathaoirleach Gníomhach's constituency. We are all-inclusive in this business. A huge amount of local voluntary effort and general effort that is grant-aided in one way or another has been undertaken by people like those in McAuley Place. There are challenges that come forward in respect of immigration. I do not approach this, nor does the Minister, from the point of view of any antipathy towards immigrants, but to support and recognise that the Irish people are supportive of that.

The message that came out of the recent local elections clearly indicates that the Irish people do not want to be associated with any antipathy towards other people who live in their areas, whom they welcome. I ask that the Minister to bear that in mind in her deliberations and that the required support be given in order that those agencies involved in helping to integrate communities get recognition.

The Deputy is absolutely right that there are many fantastic communities out there. I have been to Lisdoonvarna, which is a great example of where a community came together and assisted many Ukrainian refugees who came there. I was down there recently and it is a wonderful success story. They were able to tap into the community recognition fund, develop their pitches and sporting facilities and do different things, the same as in the Deputy's constituency. There is loads of good work going on under the radar. Unfortunately, sometimes all we hear are the stories of where it does not go right. There are a lot more cases of many wonderful communities across the country that are helping, particularly through local development companies. They are doing good work on the ground. They are working with, educating and helping people who come to this country, and so many of those people are integrating. They are contributing hugely to our society. We all well know that our hospitals would not operate if we did not have immigrants coming here. As regards our processing plants, we would not have food on the table if we did not have migrants coming here. The industrial wheels of this country depend on people coming here to work, and it is important we recognise that.

We also have the various programmes. Nationally, more than €225 million has been secured for community development programmes in my Department in 2024. The social inclusion and community activation programme and the community services programme will have combined core funding of €100 million. The allocation for community development also provides funding of €21 million for the community centre fund. To further support communities, I announced €50 million in additional funding under the community recognition fund on 15 March last. The additional funding is targeted specifically at projects located in cities, towns and villages that are hosting the beneficiaries of temporary protection and-or international protection. Last Friday, I was delighted to announce a further €20 million in funding to support community groups to upgrade and refurbish community facilities. These community centres are so important in bringing together people from all communities and in breaking down those barriers and, sometimes, the fears some people have. We need to have the conversations, we need to come together and we need to understand one another better in some places.